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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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45degreeN and ragman 13,
Hi, 
Regarding Zech 12:10:
| 45 wrote: | | Sounds very much like three person Godhead all equally God but referred to differently. Gee this is in fact Old Testament isn't it. |
Yes, that is OT. Where you get a Godhead or a trinity out of that I don't know. 
(Zechariah 12:10) “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son].
I saw some of what you posted about the Christian -Thinktank. I don't know why you are so taken by it. I am not impressed. 
Regarding ragman13's Isa 63 scripture, I see no trinity there either. Neither did the Isrealites who actually read and spoke Hebrew. 
It is plain and simple. The trinity isn't in those scriptures. Or even hinted to. |
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ragman13
Labrador
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 320
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Tbax that was some argument you presented there! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| The scriptures presented don't require an argument as they don't speak of a trinity. |
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ragman13
Labrador
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 320
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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TBax WROTE
| Quote: | | The scriptures presented don't require an argument as they don't speak of a trinity. |
| Quote: | | (Zechariah 12:10) “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son]. |
NWT
TBax this is not scripture. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | How can a spirit be pierced? No body!
Obviously you still haven't read the think tank on this one. I consider the author of that apologetic web site a brilliant authority one who has considered all the facts
. Defending dogma by repeating it often enough is a useless waste of computer time and reading time for real thinkers. |
Instead of quoting Trinitarian authors, why not a little chapter and verse, so we can discuss your Trinitarian "proofs", and see what the Bible says, or does not say, on the subject of Trinitarianism. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
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ragman13,
Neither your scripture nor 45's speak of a trinity. No argument is necessary if you can read what the scripture is saying.
| ragman wrote: | | I will tell of the kindnesses of the LORD, the deeds for which he is to be praised, according to all the LORD [Father] has done for us . . . and so he became their Savior. In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence [Son] saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them. . . . Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. |
If Jesus was the angel or messenger of God, Jehovah, then he is not himself God, but an angel of God. The faithful Israelites who actually spoke hebrew, the original language this was written in, never believed God was multiple people.  People now many centuries latter trying to turn God into a trinity is a joke, and is a vestige of Babylon.  |
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dabmci
Hamster
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Hello Tbax,
Sorry I am in the process of moving and internet at home is down for the moment, but at work I can read and respond a little. I check this fourm everyday to learn something new and for the most part you are very bold in all your thinking. You shoot down what everyone else says without even thinking about it. You talk out of both side of your mouth.
Example: You just said that there is no mention of the God showing himself as the Father , the Son, and the Holy Sprit, but in no way does Jesus Ever say he is Michael but in evey post reguarding Jesus you imply that he is. Please explain why you try to make the Bible walk on all four legs. And please do not run away from this please as you do so many other post. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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dabmci,
| dabmci wrote: | | You shoot down what everyone else says without even thinking about it. You talk out of both side of your mouth. |
There is only one truth. The trinity is not scriptural. To say God is a trinity is to adopt pagan or babylonish doctrine. The Bible is clear.
1 Cor 8: 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
Jesus was clear.
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
| dabmci wrote: | | You just said that there is no mention of the God showing himself as the Father , the Son, and the Holy Sprit, but in no way does Jesus Ever say he is Michael but in evey post reguarding Jesus you imply that he is. |
In discussions about weather Jesus is Micheal, yes I do what you said. Otherwise I don't know what you are talking about.
If you are refering to the scripture ragman brought out, ragman identified Jesus as the angel of God as recorded in Isa 63. I agree.
| dabmci wrote: | | Please explain why you try to make the Bible walk on all four legs. And please do not run away from this please as you do so many other post. |
If you did indeed read any other post you would know I don't run away. I do stop being serious when people are being unreasonable. But it take alot to get to that point. Sometimes I ignor insipid or pointless comments.
I know very little about you. What I do know is it appears you ran away. You said you would explain your beliefs clearer and I haven't heard from you till now where you are now making these silly claims. You want me to respond as to why I try to make the Bible walk on all four legs.???? What does that even mean? Perhaps a comment deserving to be ignored.
You can sit in judgement of me or try to participate to prove your points.
The Bible shows God is Jesus Father. Therefore Jesus isn't God. Why people try to complicate this so a pagan doctrine can be "true" is beyond me.
So you can be reminded as to what is still unanswered by you I will repost it below.
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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dabmci,
You are doing this during work? 
When you get more in depth please show why you believe those who represent God are God, like The Angel of the Lord?
Jesus also represented God, and was sent by Him. That doesn't make Jesus God though.
Please show the scripture that shows God would come in the flesh.
| dabmci wrote: | | Jesus calls himself the Son of God making himself equal with the Father. |
The Bible says Adam was a son of God. Do you believe Adam was God? The angels are called sons of God as well. Your conclusion isn't warrented. Perhaps you can clarify latter.
| dabmci wrote: | | The Holy Sprit is also Spoken of as God in the book of Acts. |
The holy spirit was poured out on the disciples. It comes from God and can be portioned out.
Acts 2:17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh,
| dabmci wrote: | | To be honest with you I really need to lay down the passages for each item I talk about because it only my word is I don't offer scripture to back it up. |
Look forward to it. Till then. |
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dabmci
Hamster
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
I will only read at work until I am up and running at home to answer your questions. I at least owe you an answer to the questions you asked me. I can answer them but in order for my answers to mean anything they have to be from the bible and bible only.
Until then. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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dabmci,
I don't mind if you can only participate limitedly at this time. I do mind your baseless accusations when I am willing to discuss things with you and it is you who hasn't responded. |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1077
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I have read the book. The premise is quite simple - Jesus was not a Trinitarian. He was an undeviating witness to Jewish unitary monotheism (Mark 12:29ff). The question he would like his readers to consider is this: Should a professed follower of Jesus promulgate the creed that the Lord Jesus Messiah identified as the greatest commandment or the creeds of later church councils? The author calls upon his readers to return to the creeds of Jesus and to worship the God that Jesus himself worshipped.
I think the author's argument is persuasive. |
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