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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
Where does this money come from? Not oil. |
And another important point is that the U.S. has WAY more wealth per capita than Sweden or Finland, so it's an absolute crime that there is so much poverty in America and that tens of millions of people have no health insurance.
It's also highly un-Christian. Matthew 25 is one of my favorite passages from the Bible, and it tells you exactly how Jesus felt about people who don't help the poor:
| Quote: | 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." |
RevJP, you should read this passage over a few times and contemplate it while you're agreeing with Pondering's extreme right-wing social views which would hurt the poor. Jesus said it: He considers anything bad which you do to the poor to be something bad that you did to Him. He'll take it personally, and it's your soul at stake.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| P123.. wrote: | | RevJP, you should read this passage over a few times and contemplate it while you're agreeing with Pondering's extreme right-wing social views which would hurt the poor. Jesus said it: He considers anything bad which you do to the poor to be something bad that you did to Him. He'll take it personally, and it's your soul at stake. |
Interesting how you ignore the facts Pondering provides and switch the discussion around to something you obviously choose not to understand, and direct the nonsense directly at me... 
Let us discuss the Matthew passage shall we? Who was Jesus speaking to? Was it the government, the occupying Romans, or was he speaking to the individuals.
Can you show me where Jesus addressed the government and said they should or should not do a thing?
Barring that, I would suppose you were directing your comments to me personally. If that is the case then perhaps you could tell me what you know about me and what I do or not do to help the 'least of these'? Otherwise, I would suggest you think twice before trying to call me out with such foolishness.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2563
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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The question boils down to two issues,1) is governmental charity somehow equivalent to personal charity and 2) is there some benefit that society receives by virtue of its care of poor (apart from the religiously motivated benefits.)
Until around the turn of the 19th century charity was almost entirely based upon families taking care of their own. After this point certain Christian groups offered charity houses and but the issue of governmental charity was an on again off again proposition until the 1930's.
Public health which is tied into this issue at the street level where poverty caused people to live in unhealthy conditions and the "diseases of poverty" spread in crowded cities. It meant paving the streets and offering expensive public works projects for sewers, clean water systems and such, ultimately ridding the cities of horses.
There is a great question of whether or not society benefits from a raising of the "general welfare." It is hardly quantifiable but people usually agree that society's benefits are real.
Personal charity though is something we are expected to perform as a command from God and the rewards from God were mentioned in previous posts here. Another side of the question lays in our participation as part of the taxes we pay. Is there any personal benefit from this tax based charity, is it even really charity?
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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The real issue is wealth distribution, and the government's role in making sure that a tiny fraction of the population doesn't control an outrageously disproportionate fraction of the wealth.
In the United States, the government fails miserably in this role, whereas in Scandanavian countries the government does this very well. There are still rich and poor people everywhere, but in Scanadanavia (and in other European countries in general) the discrepancy isn't NEARLY as large as in the U.S.
This is a well-studied phenomenon, and one way of measuring the difference between countries is by using a coefficient called the 'Gini Index'. Here is a comparison of a few countries:
CHECK LINK
Almost all U.S. economists agree that the current wealth distribution in the country is extremely bad for the economy, and they agree that the Government should distribute a whole bunch of the wealth which is held by the tiny rich minority in the U.S. to the rest of the population. Every time this has been done in the past, it was extremely good for the country as a whole. The 'New Deal' was a good example of this.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | The question boils down to two issues,1) is governmental charity somehow equivalent to personal charity |
Ironically, the U.S. is one of the biggest welfare states in the world. The only difference is that instead of giving lots of little hand-outs to lots of poor people, the U.S. government gives massively big ones to rich corporations.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Plotinus
Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 900
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Almost all U.S. economists agree that the current wealth distribution in the country is extremely bad for the economy, and they agree that the Government should distribute a whole bunch of the wealth which is held by the tiny rich minority in the U.S. to the rest of the population. Every time this has been done in the past, it was extremely good for the country as a whole. The 'New Deal' was a good example of this. |
This is a good point, and can be illustrated by very simple economic models. Suppose you have 10 people each with 10 dollars. (Gini index 0.) Then all 10 of them can engage immediately in buying and selling. The potentional number of financial transactions at that point in time is
(10 X 9)/2 = 45.
So in principle you have a vibrant economic system.
At the other extreme, if one person has 100 dollars and the other nine have nothing, (Gini index 100) then only one person can buy. The others can only sell. The potential number of financial transactions at that point in time is
9 x 1 = 9.
The result is a much weaker economy.
It is even worse than this. The utility of money is nonlinear, after all. One person with 100 dollars is not ten times as happy as one person with 10 dollars.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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I'd love to understand this better. Can you tell me where the 9 came from?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1412
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
Ironically, the U.S. is one of the biggest welfare states in the world. The only difference is that instead of giving lots of little hand-outs to lots of poor people, the U.S. government gives massively big ones to rich corporations. |
Just to be clear...you do understand that those corporations employ millions of people, trade in their stocks finances the retirement plans (401k) of millions of people....
you honestly think Gov't can do better?
| Plotinus wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Almost all U.S. economists agree that the current wealth distribution in the country is extremely bad for the economy, and they agree that the Government should distribute a whole bunch of the wealth ..... |
This is a good point, |
No it isn't. 9 out 10 Doctors agree that this is an unattributed appeal to authority...once again a "call to the consensus"...
Maybe almost all Socialists agree with this point, but horse-hockey that "almost all" do...what does "almost all" mean? 1%? 10? c'mon...you know better than that P#s.
Geez, P#s, I figured you were pretty socially concerned and compassionate to your fellow man, but this sounds like liberal socialist (but then I repeat myself) dogma...
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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P123, it would be appreciated if you would either post a link to the charts you reference, or shrink them down before pasting them in so they do not stretch the page.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
Ironically, the U.S. is one of the biggest welfare states in the world. The only difference is that instead of giving lots of little hand-outs to lots of poor people, the U.S. government gives massively big ones to rich corporations. |
Just to be clear...you do understand that those corporations employ millions of people, trade in their stocks finances the retirement plans (401k) of millions of people.... |
America hasn't always been a corporate welfare state. Once upon a time you guys believed in free market economics and capitalism.
| Pondering wrote: |
| Plotinus wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Almost all U.S. economists agree that the current wealth distribution in the country is extremely bad for the economy, and they agree that the Government should distribute a whole bunch of the wealth ..... |
This is a good point, |
No it isn't. 9 out 10 Doctors agree that this is an unattributed appeal to authority...once again a "call to the consensus"... |
It's NOT a fallacious appeal to authority. What are people who know about the economy called? Economists! Who am I appealing to with respect to my statement about the economy? Economists! That's not a fallacious appeal to authority.
Wikipedia has good citations on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_distribution_in_the_united_states
| Quote: | | A 2004 poll of 1,000 economists showed that the majority of economists favor "redistribution."[6] A study by the Southern Economic Journal found that "71 percent of American economists believe the distribution of income in the US should be more equal, and 81 percent feel that the redistribution of income is a legitimate role for government. |
This isn't surprising if you consider that
| Quote: |
In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth. |
And that's BEFORE Bush's economic policies really got going. Things are even more unequal now.
Maybe almost all Socialists agree with this point, but horse-hockey that "almost all" do...what does "almost all" mean? 1%? 10? c'mon...you know better than that P#s.
| Pondering wrote: |
Geez, P#s, I figured you were pretty socially concerned and compassionate to your fellow man, but this sounds like liberal socialist (but then I repeat myself) dogma... |
Quoting economists is NOT socialist dogma!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1412
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: |
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It is when you don't vet your sources....the article you quote from wiki comes from Public Opinion journal...that's fine...the specific article from here
my comments in { } .
Abstract:
In Spring 2003, a survey of 1000 economists was conducted using a randomly generated membership list from the American Economics Association. {good} The survey contained questions about 18 policy issues, voting behavior, and several background variables. The response was 264 (nonblank) surveys. {not good, 25% response rate} The responses show that most economists are supporters of safety regulations, gun control, redistribution, public schooling, and anti-discrimination laws. They are evenly mixed on personal choice issues, military action, and the minimum wage. Most economists oppose tighter immigration controls, government ownership of enterprise and tariffs. In voting, the Democratic:Republican ratio is 2.5:1. These results are compared to those of previous surveys of economists. We itemize a series of important questions raised by these results.
{so whether these economist say "x" or "y" seems to be influenced by their general political bent....that's why economists make bad scientists}....
Still 264 economist do not make "Almost all economists".....
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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Plotinus
Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 900
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | I'd love to understand this better. Can you tell me where the 9 came from? |
In both cases we calculate the number of pairs out of ten in which at least one person of the two has nonzero money. (We can assume that the other person can provide a service for money if he/she has no money.) In the first case this is the number of distinct pairs among ten people. In the second case it is the number of pairs in which one member is the person with the 100 dollars. Since there are nine other people there are nine pairs.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Pondering"]It is when you don't vet your sources....the article you quote from wiki comes from Public Opinion journal...that's fine...the specific article from here
What about the other study which stated,
| Quote: | | A 2004 poll of 1,000 economists showed that the majority of economists favor "redistribution." |
I didn't just cite results from one study; they are corroborated.
| Pondering wrote: |
Still 264 economist do not make "Almost all economists"..... |
It's called random sampling, and 264 is well above what is required by the central limit theorem. (Remember, I know a little bit about math.)
If your randomly-sampled population contains enough people in it, then it is perfectly sound to generalize the conclusions.
If you're trying to argue that the government redistributing the wealth in America would be bad for the country, then you're wrong. It's bad for the economy when too few people hold too much of the wealth. Read Plotinus' post. He's doing a very good job explaining it.
It's not very complicated. Do you think that the Gini index is a useless measure? Or do you think that it actually says something?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| p123 wrote: | | What are people who know about the economy called? Economists! Who am I appealing to with respect to my statement about the economy? Economists! That's not a fallacious appeal to authority. |
This is definitively untrue.
| Quote: |
economist
noun
an expert in the science of economics |
I know about the economy, but certainly I am not an expert in the science of economics. Would you call me an economist?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, I should have written,
What are people who know THE MOST about the economy called? Economists!...
Is that better?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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