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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Location: USA
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 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: |
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I think Pondering's point was entirely clear. Poverty in the U.S. is nominal in comparison to the total population.
| wiki wrote: | The poverty threshold, or poverty line, is the minimum level of income deemed necessary to achieve an adequate standard of living. In practice, like the definition of poverty, the official or common understanding of the poverty line is significantly higher in developed countries than in developing countries.
Almost all societies have some citizens living in poverty. The poverty threshold is useful as an economic tool with which to measure such people and consider socioeconomic reforms such as welfare and unemployment insurance to reduce poverty.
Determining the poverty line is usually done by finding the total cost of all the essential resources that an average human adult consumes in one year. This approach is needs-based in that an assessment is made of the minimum expenditure needed to maintain a tolerable life. This was the original basis of the poverty line in the United States, whose poverty threshold has since been raised due to inflation. In developing countries, the most expensive of these resources is typically the rent required to live in an apartment. Economists thus pay particular attention to the real estate market and housing prices because of their strong influence on the poverty threshold.
Individual factors are often used to account for various circumstances, such as whether one is a parent, elderly, a child, married, etc. The poverty threshold is adjusted each year. In 2006, in the United States of America, the poverty threshold for a single person under 65 was US$10,488; the threshold for a family group of four, including two children, was US$20,444.
Defining poverty thresholds
Poverty thresholds can be defined in different ways:
* Social Security benefit based. If a government guarantees to make income up to some particular level then it may be presumed that that level is the poverty threshold. This is a problematic definition, because an uncharitable government may reduce the guaranteed income, thus reducing the incidence of poverty so defined while increasing the incidence of actual poverty.
* A relative income line, related to some fraction of typical incomes. This excludes the wealthiest individuals from the calculation. For example, the OECD and the European Union uses 60% of national median equivalised household income.
* A relative figure fixed in time and only adjusted for inflation - thus avoiding the possibility that if income inequality increases, then poverty may otherwise also increase.
* When the World Bank calculates its "$1 a day" statistics, it uses a poverty threshold. |
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | According to a UN declaration that resulted from the World Summit on Social Development in Copenhagen in 1995, absolute poverty is "a condition characterised by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services."[2]
David Gordon's paper, "Indicators of Poverty & Hunger", for the United Nations, further explains that absolute poverty is the absence of any two of the following eight basic needs:[2]
* Food: Body Mass Index must be above 16.
* Safe drinking water: Water must not come from solely rivers and ponds, and must be available nearby (less than 15 minutes' walk each way).
* Sanitation facilities: Toilets or latrines must be accessible in or near the home.
* Health: Treatment must be received for serious illnesses and pregnancy.
* Shelter: Homes must have fewer than four people living in each room. Floors must not be made of dirt, mud, or clay.
* Education: Everyone must attend school or otherwise learn to read.
* Information: Everyone must have access to newspapers, radios, televisions, computers, or telephones at home.
* Access to services: This item is undefined by Gordon, but normally is used to indicate the complete panoply of education, health, legal, social, and financial (credit) services.
For example, a person who lives in a home with a mud floor is considered severely deprived of shelter. A person who never attended school and cannot read is considered severely deprived of education. A person who has no newspaper, radio, television, or telephone is considered severely deprived of information. All people who meet any two of these conditions — for example, they live in homes with mud floors and cannot read — are considered to be living in absolute poverty. |
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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revJP quoted | Quote: | | For example, a person who lives in a home with a mud floor is considered severely deprived of shelter. A person who never attended school and cannot read is considered severely deprived of education. A person who has no newspaper, radio, television, or telephone is considered severely deprived of information. All people who meet any two of these conditions — for example, they live in homes with mud floors and cannot read — are considered to be living in absolute poverty. |
So, are there some absolute standards of poverty that are relevant to all cultures, no! The standards must reflect the culture and milieu from which a person lives, and they can change as the person moves from place to place and culture to culture.
Looking back from the US an immigrant will see the bounty they have now and say that they were living in absolute poverty and yet they never even thought of themselves as poor prior to the move. For them to go back into what they had before would in fact be choosing poverty.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I think Pondering's point was entirely clear. Poverty in the U.S. is nominal in comparison to the total population. |
Only if you compare your fine nation to the third-world.
You've got between 1.5 and 3.5 million homeless people on your streets at any given time. That's about 1% of the population, which is outrageously high when compared with other civilized countries.
You have an outrageous prosperity gap in the U.S.
When I moved to Toronto, I thought that the homeless problem here was really bad. But every time I visit an American city, I see WAY more homeless people.
And whenever Scandanavians visit the department here and we walk around, they are horrified every time they see a homeless person, because they've never seen them before.
Another interesting fact is that 49% of homeless people are black, whereas they constitute only 11% of the population.
So much for 'equality'...
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.
Last edited by P1234567890 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
| P#s wrote: |
Sweden and Denmark have oil? |
Are you deliberately being obtuse? |
It turns out that Denmark and Norway are oil-producing countries, but Finland and Sweden are not, and the amount of oil produced by Denmark and Norway is tiny compared to countries like the U.S., Canada, Saudi Arabia, etc.
So your argument that oil wealth is responsible for the lack of poverty in Scandanavia is wrong.
Here is a list of oil reserves by country:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872964.html
Norway is barely in the top 20, and Denmark isn't in the top 20. And neither Sweden nor Finland produce anything.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention something important: 23% of homeless people in the U.S. are veterans.
That's like 500,000 to 750,000 homeless veterans living on your streets.
I'm glad to see that their sacrifices and service to the country is so appreciated.
Forget the right to vote. I think they've earned the right to have a home.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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P123...
How many of those 'homeless' people you refer to are in their situation by choice?
I wonder at the 1% that you referred to. Scientifically and statistically, 1% is nominal, the percentage doesn't become 'significant' until it reaches 5%.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP...give it up...if you told P#s that we were giving every homeless person a Million dollars, he'd complain that we didn't give them a checking account to deposit it in....
he knows that his point is scientifically weak, that's why he's making an appeal to emotion...his BDS is spreading to "America = Satan"....whatever.
for P#s, what's the source of your date re: the Vets...
a couple of thoughts that aren't backed by any numbers....until 1975 we had a draft, and during Vietnam, the draft disproportionately selected the poor...so there is probably a causal relationship there...
after 1975, I become more skeptical about homeless vets....I believe (can't prove) that many homeless claim to vets for sympathy when in fact they arent....I'd also bet that many of the "vets" received dishonorable discharges due to drug use or were found "unfit for service" and administratively separated (no negative consequence, but not necessarily entitled to full veteran benefits)....
I say that because if you truly are a vet, there are many many social programs that one could avail oneself of to preclude being homeless...therefore, I conclude that most homeless folks that persist beyond the first 6 months are there by choice or are so immersed in victim culture (or drugs/alcoholism) that no manner of intervention would ever make them productive adults.
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RevJP
Moderator
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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I fully agree Pondering, with everything you stated.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | and the amount of oil produced by Denmark and Norway is tiny compared to countries like the U.S., Canada, Saudi Arabia, etc. |
So is their population.
| Quote: | | So your argument that oil wealth is responsible for the lack of poverty in Scandanavia is wrong. |
I do believe the argument was that oil income was a contributing factor to the lack of poverty.
What do you think would happen in the U.S. if the government took control of the oil companies and distributed the profits to the citizenry? Considering the relative population it probably wouldn't make that big of a difference, but would produce exponential affluence if the profits were distributed to a population that was 90% smaller.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | RevJP...give it up...if you told P#s that we were giving every homeless person a Million dollars, he'd complain that we didn't give them a checking account to deposit it in.... |
No, I'd be complaining that you gave them a million dollars. That would be monumentally stupid.
| Pondering wrote: |
he knows that his point is scientifically weak, that's why he's making an appeal to emotion...his BDS is spreading to "America = Satan"....whatever. |
Are you kidding? I think that America is a fantastic country! I'm not even an American, and I'm a patriot. It pains me greatly to see people such as the Bush administration so effectively harming it.
But contrary to what you guys might think, your country isn't perfect, and being in denial about the problems isn't going to help. Acknowledging and confronting the problems WILL help.
| Pondering wrote: |
for P#s, what's the source of your date re: the Vets...
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Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States
| Pondering wrote: |
a couple of thoughts that aren't backed by any numbers....until 1975 we had a draft, and during Vietnam, the draft disproportionately selected the poor...so there is probably a causal relationship there...
after 1975, I become more skeptical about homeless vets....I believe (can't prove) that many homeless claim to vets for sympathy when in fact they arent....I'd also bet that many of the "vets" received dishonorable discharges due to drug use or were found "unfit for service" and administratively separated (no negative consequence, but not necessarily entitled to full veteran benefits)....
I say that because if you truly are a vet, there are many many social programs that one could avail oneself of to preclude being homeless...therefore, I conclude that most homeless folks that persist beyond the first 6 months are there by choice or are so immersed in victim culture (or drugs/alcoholism) that no manner of intervention would ever make them productive adults. |
No other country has so many homeless veterans, so no matter how you cut it, the U.S. is doing *something* much worse than most of the civilized countries out there, so there's room for improvement. Denying that a problem exists isn't going to help your country. You should be more patriotic than that.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | and the amount of oil produced by Denmark and Norway is tiny compared to countries like the U.S., Canada, Saudi Arabia, etc. |
So is their population.
| Quote: | | So your argument that oil wealth is responsible for the lack of poverty in Scandanavia is wrong. |
I do believe the argument was that oil income was a contributing factor to the lack of poverty. |
So how do you explain the complete absence of homeless people in Sweden and Finland, since they have no oil? How is the oil income there a contributing factor to their lack of poverty if there is no oil income there?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So how do you explain the complete absence of homeless people in Sweden and Finland, since they have no oil? |
It is a welfare state, they are given homes in some fashion or another (prison cells at times).
| Quote: | | But contrary to what you guys might think, your country isn't perfect, and being in denial about the problems isn't going to help. Acknowledging and confronting the problems WILL help. |
I don't believe anyone here ever stated, or insinuated that the U.S. is perfect. Certainly not in this thread. Neither is anyone here in denial about anything.
What you seem to not understand is that your erroneous assertions are being corrected, and that is all it is. No one denies there are homeless people, no one denies there is poverty, we are simply pointing out the truth of the matter in opposition to your baloney.
| Quote: | | No other country has so many homeless veterans, |
No other country has as many veterans either.
| Quote: | | Denying that a problem exists isn't going to help your country. |
No one denied anything. It was simply pointed out that your 'statistics' were erroneous.
| Quote: |
You should be more patriotic than that. |
You should be more realistic.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | we are simply pointing out the truth of the matter in opposition to your baloney. |
His 'baloney' is backed up by outside sources, and yours... hmmm.
| RevJP wrote: | | It is a welfare state, they are given homes in some fashion or another (prison cells at times). |
Where does this money come from? Not oil.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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For Denmark, it's a social welfare state...from wikipedia
"The Danish welfare model is accompanied by a taxation system that is both broad based (25% VAT, not including excise, duty and tax) and with world record income tax rates (minimum tax rate for adults is 39.6% scaling to over 60%). Other than the income taxes, the most infamous tax is the registration tax imposed on private vehicles, on average more than tripling the price by first adding on average 180% to the import price of the vehicles and then adding 25% VAT on top"
So yes...if you want a welfare state and are willing to pay for it...no problem, I didn't say it wasn't doable...I said I didn't want to do it.
Denmark has a population of about 5.5million, 91% are of Danish decent, 83% are Lutheran...so, low relative population that is highly homogeneous....easy cheezy lemon squeezey...makes sense that socially, they accept a social welfare state.....oh btw, even in a highly controlled, highly unionized country, they still have about 1% unemployment (65k people) who should otherwise be eligible...human nature is universal.
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Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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