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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: |
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So 'smart' people don't count now, eh? Why do I feel like I'm watching a rerun of ad homenim dismissal?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8336
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | So 'smart' people don't count now, eh? Why do I feel like I'm watching a rerun of ad homenim dismissal? |
Smart people speaking outside of their area of expertise don't count; that's right. Quoting experts outside of their areas is a FALLACIOUS appeal to authority.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Really? So an intelligent, educated person, who maybe has a doctorate in a scientific field, or is maybe a doctoral candidate, say computer science perhaps, is not qualified to weigh in an opinion on things not related to his or her field of study?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 961
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | So an intelligent, educated person, who maybe has a doctorate in a scientific field, or is maybe a doctoral candidate, say computer science perhaps, is not qualified to weigh in an opinion on things not related to his or her field of study? |
Rev that would breech P1234567890's accepted parameters, which would then skew the desired results.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 122
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8336
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Really? So an intelligent, educated person, who maybe has a doctorate in a scientific field, or is maybe a doctoral candidate, say computer science perhaps, is not qualified to weigh in an opinion on things not related to his or her field of study? |
That's absolutely right. The opinions of someone speaking outside their area of expertise is not worth nearly as much as the opinions of someone speaking within their area of expertise.
Now, if you're trying to suggest that *my* opinions are therefore worthless because I am a computer scientist and therefore am speaking outside my area of expertise, my answer to that would be that this is wrong. I am a logician, and as such my area of expertise includes the study of arguments, and I AM qualified to discuss the logic of the arguments, regardless of what area they are in.
Furthermore, my opinions on every single scientific matter are well within the scientific mainstream, so really all of my opinions ARE the same as those of the experts (and for good reason). So it's pretty hard to attack my scientific positions.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8336
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
My point? To prove that it's not an issue isolated to the USA. |
Obviously we can find individuals in ANY country who deny evolution. Big deal. That's NOT what this discussion is about.
Out of all the civilized countries on Earth, why is ID only a POLITICAL issue in the United States? That's the question.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Really? So an intelligent, educated person, who maybe has a doctorate in a scientific field, or is maybe a doctoral candidate, say computer science perhaps, is not qualified to weigh in an opinion on things not related to his or her field of study? |
Sure, they're qualified to weigh in. Anyone's qualified to weigh in.
| Dust wrote: | | Rev that would breech P1234567890's accepted parameters, which would then skew the desired results. |
| RevJP wrote: | | So 'smart' people don't count now, eh? Why do I feel like I'm watching a rerun of ad homenim dismissal? |
Thing about this is it's fundamentally an argument from authority (and popularity). "Look, these scientists all have a problem with evolution!"
Showing that they aren't actually in relevant fields (and probably didn't even have to take any relevant classes to get their degree) is a perfectly legitimate method of dismissing the results. When one makes an argument from authority, the authority is on the table as a target. It's a kind of ad hominem, sure, but it's not a fallacious one.
"Why do you think ID is primarily an issue isolated to the United States?"
See, you skipped a word.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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The Barbarian
Hamster
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Really? So an intelligent, educated person, who maybe has a doctorate in a scientific field, or is maybe a doctoral candidate, say computer science perhaps, is not qualified to weigh in an opinion on things not related to his or her field of study? |
Such a person would probably be more informed than the average person, but much less informed than even a bachelor of science in the specific field being discussed. A PhD is not a grant of omniscience.
However, there is a correlation between the amount of education a person has, and their acceptance of evolution, so there is some indication that PhDs generally understand evolution better than people without degrees. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8336
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The Barbarian wrote: |
However, there is a correlation between the amount of education a person has, and their acceptance of evolution, so there is some indication that PhDs generally understand evolution better than people without degrees. |
...Not that it takes very much to understand evolutionary theory. Its basics are pretty trivial. This is one reason why religious people are so threatened by it: It is a simple and *elegant* explanation which even uneducated people can understand.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.
Last edited by P1234567890 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Or it could be that some people simply do not arrive at the same conclusions when viewing the evidence. But what do I know anyway? My degrees are not in a related field... 
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8336
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Or it could be that some people simply do not arrive at the same conclusions when viewing the evidence. |
Except that the vast majority (all?) of the people who disagree with evolution don't have the foggiest notion what it says. All they know is what their pastors tell them. Just look at the common misconceptions we see here on this very discussion board *all the time*.
I'm guessing that upwards of 50% of 'evolution skeptics' think that it says our great grandparents lived in trees eating bananas.
I'm also willing to conjecture that upwards of 99.999% of them have skepticism which has an exclusively religious motivation.
| RevJP wrote: |
But what do I know anyway? My degrees are not in a related field... |
You're a perfect example; you don't disagree with evolution because there are scientific arguments against it. Your objections come *exclusively* from your interpretation of scripture.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You're a perfect example; you don't disagree with evolution because there are scientific arguments against it. Your objections come *exclusively* from your interpretation of scripture. |
and you sir are entirely incorrect. My disagreement with the conclusions of evolutionary theory existed long before my understanding of scripture. I want to point out here that I am once again speaking of the conclusions, in particular - macro evolution.
Just so we don't start arguing something I've never stated.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 961
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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The situation is....in the economy of scientific idea's, there is a certain mindset (what P keeps referring to as "mainstream"?), which admittedly includes the requirement for a specific type of educational degree(s) (a lot of people have degrees...this is not a bad thing), but more pointedly, requires the particular work, past and present, of those scientist's wishing to do commerce within this particular economy, to refelct the said mindset. All others who are not marked with the same mindset and/or whose work does not carry the mark of this mindset, are simply not permitted to do commerce within the "mainstream" enconomy of scientific idea's. As our most beloved atheists here at this site continually point out, an aspect of the mark I refer to, that is most recognizable to them, is godlessness.
Note: This is not a narrow interpretation/application of a passage in the Book of Revelation, but is rather based on actual observation, which may be in-line with an underlying biblical principle found in the Book of Revelation.
He has risen! Happy Easter! Happy Purim!...and all that good stuff!
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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This one is a conference from over two years ago, but it took place in "Prague". That's outside the USA so it should be relevant to the subject of this thread which is "Why do you think ID is primarily an issue isolated to the United States?"
Darwin And Design
http://www.darwinanddesign.org/
Thanks for correcting me on that last post FFT. Far be it from me that I would want to skip a word. |
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