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Jamtomorrow
Banned
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 22
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 Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Yehu,
If the final state has arrived, then there is a good chance that the unrighteous were raised up at this point as the scriptures indicate and they faced final judgment and eternal separation from God.
Are you sure the writer wasn't at least thinking about this when this text was written? I don't see any thing that would indicate him not thinking in these terms.
Lord bless. |
JB
I agree that it stretches credulity beyond reasonable limits to imagine that the ‘all’ in 1 Cor 15 can refer to only God’s elect and I admire your determination to avoid this error.
At least your interpretation has respectability, but what if we consider Paul’s more detailed analysis in
Romans Ch5
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Here, Paul makes it clear that the life giving Spirit of the second Adam brought, in addition, justification for all men.
Doesn’t this present problems for the idea that Christ’s gift was to resurrect in order to torment in hell?
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1084
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jamtomorrow,
I hope that this isn't an attempt to promote universalism. To accept that position would be to reject a major portion of the Scriptures. Eternal separation from God is Biblical. There is absolutely no support for universalism in the scriptures. It is a purely emotionally driven theology and makes little room for the scriptures.
Over and over again I hear, how could a God of love send some one to hell? That isn't a Biblical approach to understanding God's Word. My heart isn't the decision maker. Truth is the decision maker.
I am not sure whether you are a universalist or not but I, with out reservation, reject such teaching. My entire post of 1 Corinthians 15 makes that very clear. In that Post I included many scriptures that are not debatable.
If you aren't a universalist, then I would be interested in your thoughts on that text. Sounds cold doesn't it?
God bless you and I hope you find Truth in your life.
Signed your non-universalist friend.  |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Jamtomorrow,
I hope that this isn't an attempt to promote universalism. To accept that position would be to reject a major portion of the Scriptures. Eternal separation from God is Biblical. There is absolutely no support for universalism in the scriptures. It is a purely emotionally driven theology and makes little room for the scriptures.
Over and over again I hear, how could a God of love send some one to hell? That isn't a Biblical approach to understanding God's Word. My heart isn't the decision maker. Truth is the decision maker.
I am not sure whether you are a universalist or not but I, with out reservation, reject such teaching. My entire post of 1 Corinthians 15 makes that very clear. In that Post I included many scriptures that are not debatable.
If you aren't a universalist, then I would be interested in your thoughts on that text. Sounds cold doesn't it?
God bless you and I hope you find Truth in your life.
Signed your non-universalist friend. |
Any view in which God doesn't save EVERYONE is a view in which God is unable OR unwilling to save everyone that He gave the breath of life to. Where the breath of life given to some would be in vain. That type of belief system when preached persuades some of the logical to be anti-God.
There is nobody that can withstand God's ability to persuade. Others have tried and failed. Pharoh tried and failed to withstand God's persuasion, Jonah failed to withstand God's persuasion, Nebuchnezzar failed to withstand God's persuasion, Paul failed to withstand God's persuasion. We all shall fail to withstand God's persuasion.
Paul |
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free fall
Banned
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| It would seem more realistic to think that you saying one thing and the bible, which is the bases for most who believe in Jesus, saying another, would be what causes any person who uses critical thinking to reject what you are saying. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2880
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | | Any view in which God doesn't save EVERYONE is a view in which God is unable OR unwilling to save everyone that He gave the breath of life to. |
Well your evil God better save EVERYONE since according to you he royally messed everybody up to begin with.
If any doctrine could be said to be anti-God is that God planned, desired, and ensured Adam would sin to bring death, disease, sickness, pain and terror to the world.
I know you have trouble with English trettep, but no one but a sicko would call that LOVE.
Darth Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2880
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Jamtomorrow wrote: | | I agree that it stretches credulity beyond reasonable limits to imagine that the ‘all’ in 1 Cor 15 can refer to only God’s elect and I admire your determination to avoid this error. |
Jam, I posted my reply in the more appropriate thread, please follow THIS LINK.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Yehu said: | Quote: | | If any doctrine could be said to be anti-God is that God planned, desired, and ensured Adam would sin to bring death, disease, sickness, pain and terror to the world. |
We've sure gotten good at the 'blame game' over the past few thousand years, haven't we?
We were given the greatest gift that anyone could be given: free will. We decide for ourselves who to listen to or don't listen to, what we believe or don't believe, what we do or don't do and when we do or don't do it. We have the power to say yes and the power to say no. We decide. Not God.
Psychiatrists and Psychologists want us to believe that if things are going wrong in our lives, it's our parents fault. You can only blame another human being for your behavior for a brief period of time. At some point, you have to take back the control they had over you. At some juncture, you have to figure things out for yourself.
God is asking that we do just that. Keep on working at it until we get better at it. When that happens, work on it some more until we get a good handle on it. Then we start working on something else.
The only way we can survive and do well is if we learn to do well by God and by one another.
Adam chose. Just like we all do.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2880
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Luv, the human faculty of “free will” was just as damaged along with everything else at the Fall, if not more so.
Is it against scripture to say that sinners are slaves of their Sin?
When does a Slave have choice for his actions? Can such a slave choose to Free himself? Or is a saviour needed?
Rom 6:17-18 KJV But God be thanked, that ye were the slaves of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
When can the bad tree choose to grow good fruit?
Don’t we as Christians want others to believe that if things are going wrong in their lives that it’s SIN’s fault? (Or do you teach that people choose to be born as sinners?)
| luvnlife wrote: | | God is asking that we do just that. Keep on working at it until we get better at it. |
Glad to see that your gospel is based upon YOU doing works (working at it).
The only way we can survive and do well is if the Holy Ghost transforms us.
Adam chose. But Jesus chose us (or at least me).
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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bobf
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | If any doctrine could be said to be anti-God is that God planned, desired, and ensured Adam would sin to bring death, disease, sickness, pain and terror to the world. |
So who was it who decided to bring death, disease, sickness & pain into Job's life? |
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bobf
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | When can the bad tree choose to grow good fruit? |
And since when can a good tree (Adam) bring forth bad fruit? |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2880
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bobf wrote: | | Yehushuan wrote: | | When can the bad tree choose to grow good fruit? |
And since when can a good tree (Adam) bring forth bad fruit? |
After he was made bad... duh.
Mat 12:33 KJV Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
God made Adam good. The Devil made Adam corrupt. (This is NOT rocket science.)
| bobf wrote: | | So who was it who decided to bring death, disease, sickness & pain into Job's life? |
Joh 10:10 KJV The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 8:44 KJV Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Adam and Eve were deceived Bob. The devil lied to them. And he did it on his own. For reasons of his own. (Though I happen to know what they are.)
Yehu
PS: Job is fictional. That's why the Jews put it in the literature section of the Bible. It is not history since it is not included in the history section. It is a story meant to convey spiritual truths, not scientific facts. And if the Jews had everything correct, then why send Jesus to teach us? (Even Moses added things on his own into the Law.)
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2880
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Yehu,
I would like to revisit my early post on 1 Corinthians 15. |
JB, I posted my reply in the more appropriate thread, please follow THIS LINK.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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bobf
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | God made Adam good. The Devil made Adam corrupt. (This is NOT rocket science.) |
All that God made was good for God's purpose. Yet Adam corrupted, so Adam was made corruptible. Those who enter God's kingdom will no longer be corruptible or mortal.
| Quote: | | Joh 8:44 KJV Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. |
No disagreement with regards to the nature of Satan. But the fact that Satan brings suffering in no way proves that God does not bring suffering. Examples: Job, Paul's thorn in the flesh, evil done by Joseph's brothers, crucifixion of Christ. God brought suffering with good intent. Satan brought suffering with evil intent. Same suffering, two agents, two opposite purposes.
| Quote: | | PS: Job is fictional....It is a story meant to convey spiritual truths, not scientific facts. |
The spiritual truth that God is running the show and Satan can't lift a finger without God's permission? That Satan brings suffering & destruction with evil intent, meanwhile God sends Satan to do so with good intent?
| Quote: | | And if the Jews had everything correct, then why send Jesus to teach us? |
To open the true meaning of the scriptures to us. Jesus did not call into question whether the Jew's scriptures contained the truth, only their blindness to that truth. Jesus taught that the scriptures can not be broken and that they testify of Him. Paul said that all scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Paul aslo taught that the spiritual truths are not contained in the letter.
Does "How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock" mean God or God's people will enjoy to smashing literal babies against literal rocks? I think not.
I believe Christ is the only One who opens our eyes to see beyond the letter. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2880
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| bobf wrote: | | Yet Adam corrupted, so Adam was made corruptible. |
Bob, sorry, I have no clue what you meant by that. “Yet Adam corrupted…” Corrupted what? Corrupted himself? How? “…so Adam was made corruptible.” By whom? When? And again, how?
You may think you posted something profound, but it didn’t really convey your meaning.
So lest I make the same error, allow me to reiterate more clearly.
Satan had an agenda, and found he could further his agenda by making Adam corrupt through a chemical or biological interaction with the substance that grew within the fruit of the Tree oKoGaE. To cause the event whereby Adam and Eve would partake and eat, the devil lied. Adam and Eve, not having any real comprehension of what deception was, ...
The command of God that they should not eat was sufficient in and of itself to assure that neither Adam nor Eve would eat of the fruit WITHOUT outside influence. Now were Adam and Eve ON THEIR OWN to have decided to partake, then I concede knuckle’s and trettept’s views might have some merit, but I would hasten to add that if such were Adam’s own action, then no redemption would have been made for Man.
The event whereby Adam and Eve partook was not in God’s agenda at all. Satan lied, and Jesus claimed that lie was of his own – Satan subjected the creation to destruction out of his own vanity, and did so upon his own accountability, not as an unwitting agent of God.
| bobf wrote: | | …suffering in no way proves that God does not bring suffering |
If it is necessary for God to bring (or allow) such suffering in order to undo the damage inflicted upon mankind by Satan, then a Good end will justify a Suffering means. HOWEVER, are you suggesting that God brings suffering on His own for His personal fun and enjoyment?  (I shall presume not.) But the examples you use are not convincing. Job is not history, and I refuse to attribute fictional suffering to the account of God. Paul’s thorn in the flesh was a “pain in the neck.” The phrase is an idiom Paul used to refer to the Judaisers sent out by James to undo the gospel of Paul. The evil done by Joseph’s brothers was their own, no? Even though God can turn such evil done by others into good. The crucifixion? Well one can hardly dispute with any suffering God places upon Himself.
| bobf wrote: | | The spiritual truth that God is running the show and Satan can't lift a finger without God's permission? |
No. Job was more concerned with the false religious views of Job’s so called comforters. Since the travails of Job could not be directly attributed by the author to God Himself, Satan was used as literary device to set the scene. Allowance can hardly be seen as direct agency. Job should be viewed as an early parable. Surely Jesus wasn’t teaching factual history when he told a parable was He?
| bobf wrote: | | Jesus did not call into question whether the Jew's scriptures contained the truth, |
Right, and Jesus didn’t declare that Moses added in divorce on his own, irrespective of God’s truth?
| bobf wrote: | | Jesus taught that the scriptures can not be broken |
Well Moses had no trouble breaking the tables, now, did he? 
| bobf wrote: | | I believe Christ is the only One who opens our eyes to see beyond the letter. |
Indeed so, Bob, indeed so.
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1563
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | eleven wrote:
| Quote: | | "For nothing is impossible with God." |
Can God gain power?
| Quote: | (one more time for clarity)
"For nothing is impossible with God" |
Can God gain wisdom?
| Quote: | (in English this time)
"For Nothing |
Can God be more infinite?
God has limits  |
No, God is ALL powerful, ALL knowing. There is NOTHING MORE to gain. He is God!
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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