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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | This presumes that everything the apostles did or thought was right, doesn’t it? |
No not at all! Peter made an obvious mistake when he separated himself from the Gentiles because of the Jews. But we must be careful not to presume from this that everything he (and the other Apostles) did or thought was wrong either. Which brings me back to the point of this study. Too many christians take what the Apostles (including Paul) said and did in isolation, with little consideration for the OT Shadows from which all of their preaching was based. I have become convinced that noone can accurately discern the right and wrongs of the Apostles behaviour solely from reading the NT. MOST of what they said and did (imho) was foreshadowed in the OT and I think we would all do well if we stopped neglecting it.
| Quote: | | Yet even after Peter had a vision about the gentiles, Paul records that men sent from James changed his mind, and Peter had to be rebuked. |
The difference with this example is that there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that Peter was in the wrong, including Peter's own words.
| Quote: | In Acts 15 Peter declares that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, but James succeeds in having the elders create a policy for Gentiles only.
(Starting to get the picture?) |
What are you referring to as a"Gentiles Only" policy? Surely not Acts 15:13-31???
| Quote: | | The disconnect is between the multitude that believed NOTHING that one possessed was his own, and Peter who specifically declared otherwise. |
The verse does not say that the 4:32 multitude BELIEVED anything, ONLY that they DIDN'T SAY the things they possessed were their own. Making an Omission and making a Declaration are not the same thing. For example, just coz a person decides to donate their possessions to a charity does not mean that they BELIEVE they are not allowed to own possessions.
| Quote: | | At this point I highly suspect that you have no experience in running a church, nor dealing with peer pressure on a large scale (say 3,000). So I readily admit that you’ll cleave to your own understanding until at some point you find yourself in the middle of the same kind of irrational exuberance of which I speak. |
One does not need experience in running a church to be intimately aquainted with peer pressure from irrational emotional exuberance. Peter is a prime example of this, who as a result denied he knew Jesus 3 times. I was also very proned to peer pressure growing up and when I came to the Lord 8 years ago and read the NT, I took warning and encouragement to avoid the same temptations as Peter. But this is certainly easier said then done and I knew very early on in my walk that it was going to be an up hill battle when I attended a church for 3 weeks and felt compelled to wear a hat because all the ladies were wearing one. No one told me I had to or why I should, I just wanted to fit in so I followed suit. Also a website I had been greatly encouraged by used the Hebrew names of Jesus and I felt compelled to do the same when corresponding with them because of their beliefs about the origins of the name Jesus. Last year I found another website that had great material but insisted that I use the Hebrew name if I wanted to join their forum. I told them to forget it.
There are many more examples I could give you to make the point that peer pressure from irrational emotional exuberance comes in all shapes, sizes and intensities and is not exclusively a church problem. But I have also had intimate experience with the power of God's Grace which can enable the weakest of souls to stand in the face of all adversity for what God has implanted in their heart, which is what I see reflected amongst the 4:32 believers...
Great Grace was upon them all!!!
Love Lily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 634
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Private ownership is ok as per Peter.
Being moved by the Holy Spirit that nothing they posses is their own is ok as per the multitude.
There is no disconnect between the two ideas although a spiritual transformation has occurred, perhaps this is what Yehu is missing.
Lying is not ok as per Ananias.
As usual Yehu cannot see past the wooden literalness of the situation.
Of course Peter makes mistakes, but not here.
Yehu and Ananias are the only disconnect I see here 
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2880
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: | | The verse does not say that the 4:32 multitude BELIEVED anything, ... |
Act 4:32 KJV And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ok, this has turned so bizarre, I can do nothing but leave you to your own folly.
Mat 9:29 KJV According to your faith be it unto you.
Yehushuan
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | Ok, this has turned so bizarre, I can do nothing but leave you to your own folly. |
Come on now brother, you've taken what I said out of context and when you put it like that it certainly does sound like folly!
Maybe I didn't make myself clear so I will try to clarify.
| Yehushuan wrote: | | bitterlily wrote: | | The verse does not say that the 4:32 multitude BELIEVED anything, ... |
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Let me rephrase that:
The verse does not say that the 4:32 multitude BELIEVED:
| Yehushuan wrote: | | NOTHING that one possessed was his own... |
...ONLY that they DIDN'T SAY the things they possessed were their own.
| Yehushuan wrote: | | Act 4:32 KJV And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. |
As I said before, this verse does not support your theory that this multitude of BELIEVERS were against owning their own property. It does however support my assertion that this was a free-will offering.
Love Lily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 634
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Yehu, you lost this debate before it started, why can't you just admit it, and at least gain some respect, instead of demeaning bitterlily? Could it be that ego you are so famous for? Just when I was beginning to like you too. 
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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I'm a bit confused about the serving of the tables part.. 
Luk 22:24 ¶ And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
So Jesus says..not only have I ministered to you in my word, I have also served you.
But the Apostles say..I will minister to you the word, but find someone else to be the servants..
maybe I'm just looking at this with a cynical mind..don't know..
And I think the part with Ananias and his wife is more about the lying of how much they sold the property for, and not actually the sale of it.
Did you sell the land for this much?..yes..LIE..
They could have told the truth and said we kept back some for ourselves and gave a freewill offering..
In which case they wouldn't have fallen dead or been found guilty of lying..they would have told the truth.
You think Peter knew how much the land was worth that they sold it for?
If everyone is selling a parcel of land and bring X amount of dollars for it..and another comes in and sells his parcel of land for X amount of dollars, which is substancially less than what others are saying theirs was worth...
well you get the picture..
Maybe Peter suspected they was lying and was giving them an opportunity to be truthful about the situation..but they chose rather to lie.
I think this is what caused Peter to become angry. He knew they lied...
And so the liar who was a deniar chose to have no mercy on those who lied as he himself had lied..
scary thought..
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Lying is intolerable...yet the Lord forgave Peter..
do unto others kind of thing..
just sharin some thoughts..
awesome study...
hugs
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 634
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Loan said:So Jesus says..not only have I ministered to you in my word, I have also served you.
But the Apostles say..I will minister to you the word, but find someone else to be the servants..
maybe I'm just looking at this with a cynical mind..don't know..
And so the liar who was a deniar chose to have no mercy on those who lied as he himself had lied..
scary thought.. |
You sound a little like Yehu but at least you seem to realize it
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hi JimD,
You know, I realize that no one is perfect and we all have our faults. And I don't believe the Apostles were perfect either because after all they were still men, and mankind makes mistakes.
But you would think that Peter, after having 3 opportunities to tell the truth and still be forgiven..
even after being told you should forgive your brother 7 times 77 times..I mean Peter should have known the difference between..Taking them and basically stoning them rather than showing them mercy.
Peter is still under the law.
Deu 19:15 ¶ One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deu 19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him [that which is] wrong;
Deu 19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy [is], shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
Deu 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, [if] the witness [be] a false witness, [and] hath testified falsely against his brother;
Deu 19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
Deu 19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
Deu 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; [but] life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Maybe that's why the Lord sent Paul to stand up to Peter to his face..to confront him.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Was Peter the Judge? Did he make diligent inquiry?
Now Peter asked them..did you sell the land for so much?
Ananias said yes, his wife said yes, where are the witnesses who are saying unh unh..Peter says it's the Holy Spirit telling him they were lying..
Well let's see what the fruits of that Holy Spirit are..
revenge, retribution, judgement, ..?
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
I don't think Peter was listening very good. If he had he might have thought about this parable.
Mat 18:21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Remember..Satan has desired to have you Peter, and to sift you as wheat. but I have prayed for you..when you are converted, strengthen your brethren..
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Did Ananias recieve forgiveness or condemnation from Peter? Was it in his power to forgive him?
Would the Holy Spirit be forgiving to Ananias and his wife?
Now coming back to deut:..
Deu 19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
Deu 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; [but] life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.
Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Fear huh..
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Fear...it's what runs the world today.
Jhn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
There is no fear in love.
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Now you notice the issue between Peter and Ananias is what?...MONEY..
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Jhn 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
I know, yesterday I was picking on Moses, this morning was Paul, now it's Peter..
It's just that I understand that no one is perfect. And we all make mistakes. Am I willing to take every word that Moses and Paul and Peter say as Gospel??
Knowing the hearts of man, that they can be decietful even when trying to do good..I have to weigh everything everyone says in the balance. And maybe at some point Peter was converted..But I don't think it was in the book of acts. I think Peter was following his own agenda.
And Moses and Paul..up to a certain time when it finally hits them...I was wrong..
We all go through it. No one is immune to being wrong at some point in their lives. But it's all been written down for us to measure our own worth by. Am I more righteous then them? By no means. But through their mistakes maybe I can avoid falling into the same traps.
Maybe here:
1Pe 4:1 ¶ Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
If you sold some land and gave me a portion of it, and I asked you how much you sold it for..would that make me a busybody in your affairs?
Why did Peter feel it was his business to know how much the land was sold for?
Ok..I stop picking on Peter..for now..
I just sometimes wonder about the foundation in which the house was built upon..was it sand or was it rock?
Thou art Peter..and upon this Rock I will build my church.
You will be raised up and knocked down and you will be refined as fine gold..but your going to have to go through hell to get there..
As we all do..
| Quote: | | You sound a little like Yehu but at least you seem to realize it |
Because I'm a little cynical? Because I question authority?
Because I have my doubts about the absolute perfection of men?
LOL..
I'm in good company then.. 
Hugs
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Can we all please agree to avoid belittling comments about each other?
It doesn't get us anywhere and is such a conversation killer!
Can we start again?
Love Lily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Hi Love,
| lone-traveler wrote: | I'm a bit confused about the serving of the tables part.. ...
So Jesus says..not only have I ministered to you in my word, I have also served you.
But the Apostles say..I will minister to you the word, but find someone else to be the servants.. |
I think you are making a very valid point but let me share my take on it. This may sound strange to some but I think the 7 who were chosen to serve tables were greater in the Kingdom of God than the Apostles for the very reason you mentioned above! Stephen and Philip are 2 examples that come to my mind who were 2 of the 7 men chosen to serve tables:
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch: Acts 6:5
STEPHEN:
And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke. Then they bribed men, who said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses, who said, This man ceases not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered to us. And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel. Acts 6:8-15
But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:55-60
I always get emotional when I read this story about Stephen! How similar it is to our Lord's life that even while dying an excruciatingly painful death he could ask the Lord to forgive his killers! It only crossed my mind now that maybe Paul's premature conversion on the road to Damascus was a direct result of Stephen's prayer of forgiveness.
PHILIP:
And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering into every house, and dragging off men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word. Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spoke, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many that were paralyzed, and that were lame, were healed. And there was great joy in that city. Acts 8:2-8
And the angel of the Lord spoke unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goes down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join yourself to this chariot. And Philip ran to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Do you understand what you read? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. Acts 8:26-31
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what does hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him  . And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip , that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8:35-40
Seriously, how different was the function of Philip and Stephen from the Apostles? The only difference I can see is that Philip and Stephen served Tables as well as the word of God, just like you pointed out Love!!!
Which is why, whenever I think of Stephen & Philip's amazing experiences I am also reminded of these verses:
And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable (e.g. serving tables), upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our less respectable parts have greater respect. For our more respectable parts have no need: but God has arranged the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it. 1 Corinthians 12:23-26
And he put forth a parable to those who were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief places; saying unto them, When you are bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest place; lest a more honorable man than you be bidden of him; And he that bade you and him come and say to you, Give this man your place; and you begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are bidden, go and sit down in the lowest place; that when he that bade you come, he may say unto you, Friend, go up higher: then shall you have honor in the presence of them that sit at table with you. For whosoever exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted. Luke 14:7-11
Did you know this is also mentioned in Proverbs but specifically related to the King and Prince? (Don't worry if you didn't coz I just found it now myself!  ):
Put not forth yourself in the presence of the king, and stand not in the place of great men(Apostles?): For better it is that it be said unto you, Come up here; than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince whom your eyes have seen. Proverbs 25:6-7
I have always been inspired by these 2 stories more than all of the experiences of the Apostles put together. And it's because of Stephen and Philip that I think it would be a great honour to serve tables!!!!!
(And no that's not the forbidden fruit! )
Lots of Love
Lily
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In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Ok Love, now here's my take on the Peter, Ananias and Sapphira incident.
Personally, I think it was by divine revelation that Peter pronounced judgement on Ananias and Sapphira. IOW he wasn't pronouncing his own personal judgement on them but rather the judgement of God revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. IMHO Peter was performing the function of a Prophet whose job involved pronouncing God's Judgement upon the people. The reason I think this is because of the following verses:
And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor comes to pass, that is, the thing which the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22
The unusual thing about Peter's judgement compared to many of the examples in the OT is that Peter's judgement happened immediately, without delay! There were some instances in the OT where God's judgements were executed immediately and personally I think there is a connection between these OT events and the one involving Peter and I think it all has to do with the Presence of God - The Holy Spirit a.k.a the Angel of the Lord. An example I can think of off the top of my head is the one involving Moses and Korah:
And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face: And he spoke unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even tomorrow the LORD will show who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he has chosen will he cause to come near unto him. Numbers 16:4-5
And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of meeting: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the congregation. And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation? And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get away from the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him. And he spoke unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins. Numbers 16:19-26
Now I vaguely recall us covering this story before Love but I can't remember where we got to with it so sorry if I'm repeating myself. As I read this story (and others like it) I am always reminded of those verses I quoted earlier:
And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor comes to pass, that is, the thing which the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22
Moses prophesied of God's coming Judgement and it was fulfilled precisely according to Moses words. So according to this verse in Deuteronomy Moses was performing the function of God's Prophet. Note that Moses didn't ask the Lord to destroy all the congregation an start again with himself and Aaron. The congregation heard the Lord say this to Moses with their own ears and they pleaded for the Lord's mercy. But note that the Lord's response was not to say, "Okay I'll forgive all of you!" The Lord was intent on fulfilling His judgement upon Korah and Co. telling the people (through Moses) to get away from their tents. I don't know about you but if I was Moses (  ) I doubt I would have had the courage to plead for Mercy on behalf of Korah and Co at this point, even though I would want to.
I think the Office of a Prophet would be the most frightening position to hold, especially if you considered yourself to be no better than the people you've been ordered to pronounce God's Judgement on. I always think about how after all Moses' hard work The Lord prevented him from entering the Promised Land all because he struck the rock instead of speaking to it. If I were Moses ( ) I would have probably thrown a tantrum  , but like every other hardship Moses faced he took it on the chin. 
Another aspect of this incident with Peter, Ananias and Sapphira I would like to address is their freewill offering. When considering this story I always think back on the Shadows in the OT. IMHO these early chapters in Acts were equivalent (if not greater) in significance to when the Lord first appeared to the congregation on Mount Sinai:
And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready by the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And you shall set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that you go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever touches the mount shall be surely put to death: There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet sounds long, they shall come up to the mount. Exodus 19:9-13
And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and grew louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice. Exodus 19:19
And it came to pass, when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that you came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; And you said, Behold, the LORD our God has showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God does talk with man, and he lives. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? Go you near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak you unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto you; and we will hear it, and do it. And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when you spoke unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto you: they have well said all that they have spoken. O that there were such a heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children forever! Go say to them, Get you into your tents again. But as for you, stand you here by me, and I will speak unto you all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. Deuteronomy 5:23-31
There are several reasons why I relate this event to those in the book of Acts:
1) Because the timing of this event ran parallel with the Feast of Pentecost. IOW it was approximately (if not precisely) 50 days after the Israelites Passover in Egypt.
2)The Law written on Stone foreshadowed the Law written on our Hearts.
3)If God's Judgement pronounced by Moses was carried out instantly upon people who only had the Law in Stone surely the consequences would be just as swift (if not more so) on those who have the Law written on their hearts but choose to ignore it:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel. See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:24-29
I doubt that Ananias and Sapphira would have suffered such a harsh Judgement if they weren't able to hear the Lord speaking from Heaven (in their Hearts). I think they did hear Him and they refused Him, suffering the consequences. I pray none of us make the same mistake!
Love Lily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bitterlily..
I am having such a hard time writing a response that's not a book..
I've written, rewritten, deleted, started over, edited..you name it ALL DAY LONG lol...
| Quote: | There are several reasons why I relate this event to those in the book of Acts:
1) Because the timing of this event ran parallel with the Feast of Pentecost. IOW it was approximately (if not precisely) 50 days after the Israelites Passover in Egypt.
2)The Law written on Stone foreshadowed the Law written on our Hearts.
3)If God's Judgement pronounced by Moses was carried out instantly upon people who only had the Law in Stone surely the consequences would be just as swift (if not more so) on those who have the Law written on their hearts but choose to ignore it: |
and yet there was a law that was set down before the law of Moses concerning the distribution of goods.
Gen 47:24 And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth [part] unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.
Gen 47:26 And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, [that] Pharaoh should have the fifth [part]; except the land of the priests only, [which] became not Pharaoh's.
Act 5:1 ¶ But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? 
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.
I guess it depends on who they was listening too..
Maybe they didn't want to sell their soul to the devil.. 
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
I don't know..for some reason this just sounds like a:
RED FLAG ALERT!!
it's always at the back of my mind..
along with the decieving of the elect and all..eww so much mystery and intrigue.. 
hugs bitterlily..
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 634
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Lone said:I don't know..for some reason this just sounds like a:
RED FLAG ALERT!!
it's always at the back of my mind..
along with the decieving of the elect and all..eww so much mystery and intrigue.. |
Lone, sincerely and with no criticism intended, as long as anyone has red flags of cynicism and doubt, Gods word will always be clouded in mystery. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.
By the way, the church was not built on Peter, but on his confession that Jesus was the Christ, in other words the church is obviously built on Christ. I hope I have misunderstood you, because I find it hard to believe you do not understand this.
Bitterlily, sounds like you are saying this thing with Ananias was an act of God , and had little or nothing to do with Peter, I agree. I suppose some would rather pin it on Peter than God, and I guess thats ok, either one of them can handle it I really appreciate your kind and patient heart, God is is still working on mine, thanks for the example.
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Hi JimD,
you wrote:
| Quote: | | By the way, the church was not built on Peter, but on his confession that Jesus was the Christ, in other words the church is obviously built on Christ. I hope I have misunderstood you, because I find it hard to believe you do not understand this. |
I understand that the church was to be built upon The Word of God. But mankind has a way of twisting and turning it so it fits their own agenda.
Take a look outside..look at the church as a whole..
Catholic, Jewish, Protostant, and then look at all the different divisions within them..I can't even number the different denominations and non-denominations.
If they were all saying and doing the same thing, there would be no schism in the church.
There wouldn't be any arguments at all because everything we would do would be "common".
Now, this I believe..Christ laid the foundation. period.
After that, man began to build upon it..you know, hay, stubble, wood, silver, gold, precious stones..
All the parts that went into building the church are written right there for us to see.
If we look really hard and use our heart and mind and common sense, we will see where some stubble was laid, some gold was laid, some wood is laid, precious stones hidden in the hay..etc..
I believe when Jesus told Peter "HE" was the "ROCK", Peter took this both personal and literal. That he believed on himself the church would be built.
Thus we have the Pope.
Now, if this church had been founded on Peter the Rock, then when the winds (doctrines) blew upon it, it would not fall, it wouldn't have even swayed in the breeze.
But things that are built on sand do have a tendency to "sway".
Jesus also told Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
Hell has not prevailed against the foudation, but the building itself has been damaged badly.
It's in pieces even, broken..the winds blew and the house shattered in many different pieces all around the world. And from these many different pieces man began to build new churches and new houses..and they all have some of the same material and yet they all have a bit different material too.
Like pieces of a puzzle that's been scattered across the floor.
Look at all the different pieces of the puzzle..
Noah, Joseph, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John..etc..
Then there's Pharaoh, and a new Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus..etc..
for every part that's played there is a counterpart.
For every good leader there is an evil leader.
It's using your God given ability knowing the foundation itself, and then determining which pieces are the silver, which is the dross, which are going through the stages of being refined.
Which ones fit in the puzzle in the places they were meant to fit in.
Have you ever been wrong? Have you ever made a mistake?
So have these guys..they are after all human as we are.
But we have the privledge of watching them grow. And watching them fall. And what motivates us, by watching what motivates them..is it love? is it money? is it power?
is it good? is it evil?...
We ate the tree along with Adam. And we have to suffer the consequences of learning the difference between good and evil, so we can determine how and with what pieces we choose to lay on that foundation.
Because every man gets to build upon it. Every person has a hand in it. And all the building material has been laid at our feet and we get to decide which pieces we are going to use to build it.
There are some parts of Peter that I see is good and other parts I see that are not so good. So I will leave the parts that I see are not so good behind and use the parts that are good to build.
Same with Paul, John, James, Moses, Joseph, David..etc..
| Quote: | | Lone, sincerely and with no criticism intended, as long as anyone has red flags of cynicism and doubt, Gods word will always be clouded in mystery. Maybe I am misunderstanding you. |
But criticism is good JimD. I appreciate you taking the time to question what I say or how I think or what I do, because it helps me to see myself as others see me, and not get so caught up in my "rightness" that I think I can never be human and wrong.
Which is exactly what I do when I read about what others wrote in the bible.
This is no mystery to me:
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Moses said it..Joseph demonstrated it..Jesus preached it and proved it..and John confirmed it..
And I'm sure there are multitudes of examples which reinforce it also.
And that is a Major part of the foundation which has never changed. It remains the same. Now whether we all believe it in the same way..that's where the puzzle pieces fit in..and the building materials in which to build upon it.
So when I go to the lumber store and I'm preparing to build a house, I am somewhat criticizing the pieces that I will choose to build my house with. Is the wood moldy? Is it crooked? Is it warped? is it cracked? Is it the right thickness? Will it give support for my house?
And that's just the lumber..
You ever build a house? There's a lot of pieces that go in it..
Doors, windows, rooms, furnishings, lights...etc..
each and every part is scrutinized and criticed according to how it will be applied in the house, or where it will be placed.
We even have a floor plan drawn out for us in the tabernacle that Moses built.
But we know that God doesn't live in houses built with hands, but rather on words, thoughts, ideas, deeds,..
and these things we use to build the house that God lives in...ourselves.
I criticize Peter for the way the situation with Ananias and Saphhra was handled..because somewhere in me I would have done it differently, or I would have given them the opportunity to speak in their defense as to why they did it..
I wouldn't have just given up on them..I would have tried to save them..see?
And that's how I choose to build upon the foundation which Christ has already laid..and every man builds upon it to the best of their ability and understanding..
sometimes it's wood, sometimes it's gold..
but you can't refine the gold without the wood to make the fire to refine it in the first place..
In order to build a city of gold..one must first have hay stubble and wood to get the fire burning..then comes decoration time..
| Quote: | | I really appreciate your kind and patient heart, God is is still working on mine, thanks for the example. |
I'm in the same boat you are friend..
we're all learning..
Thank you
from my heart
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 634
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Lone said:I criticize Peter for the way the situation with Ananias and Saphhra was handled..because somewhere in me I would have done it differently, or I would have given them the opportunity to speak in their defense as to why they did it..
I wouldn't have just given up on them..I would have tried to save them..see? |
I am sorry I do not have time to respond to all your post.
Why are you so sure Ananias and Saphira were lost? God using someone for an example by taking their life does not necessarily mean they were lost. Lost to this world, yes but they are still living somewhere. If lying to the holy Spirit were always punished by death, I would have been dead a long time ago but my hope is that God forgave me for that, and still has a purpose for me in this world. I would not be at all surprised if Ananias and his wife are in heaven right now, praise God! isn't His love wonderful, and His ways past finding out, and we are just getting started!? God Bless
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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