1Cr 15:28

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969

Your welcome. Very Happy

_________________
Agape,
TBax

dabmci · Ferret Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 116 Location: Wylie

TBax,

Why does your rendering of phil2 have [other] added? That is not how it is read.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969

dabmci,

Because Jesus' name obviously isn't above Jehovah's name, the one who exalted Jesus. Very Happy

_________________
Agape,
TBax

dabmci · Ferret Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 116 Location: Wylie

Tbax
So let me get this stright If your group does not believe what the Bible has been teaching ,(and I might add for more years than you have been a Group), the JW feels the need to change it to fit your needs, Right? That is bold. Please explain? Everytime I read something you write it shocks me. Its like me not liking what the dead sea scrolls say and making my own scrolls and then tell people this is what the scrolls really says or should have said. Wrong just Wrong. You don't just add words because you think the bible is wrong. Please explain why OTHER has been inserted.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969

dabmci,

When translating words are commonly added to correspond to the current language, in order to be understood. The Bible also says Jesus was given all authority. Does that mean Jesus has authority over God? There are obvious exceptions. Cool

If you want to believe Jesus was elevated over the one who elevated him, that is your call. But you would be wrong scripturally.

You seem very much more confrontational now that you poped up again. If what I write shocks you, good. Jesus shocked his listeners too. If instead of making your points you want to make comments about me, fine. Anyone can do that about those that disagree with them. The proof is in the points, the scriptures. Smile

dabmci · Ferret Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 116 Location: Wylie

Tbax,

The way you word things on the surface makes it seem as if you have the right to change anything you feel that does not meet YOUR standard but as I said before the bible has been around long before the JW showed up on the map. God preserved his word did he not? He did not leave us and waited until your group decided to show up to recreate the bible. Again it is obvious that there was NO need to add the word OTHER there. Tbax you just don't add words to make the meaning fit your needs. THAT is WRONG.

You say I am more confrontational now that I am back, well I do not agree with the main and plain things the JW believe, but I am true to myself and I know that there are many things I really like that your group does. I will be the first to say I am wrong if I am about anything. I just believe you don't need to add or take away anything from the bible to make what you believe sound true.

I just feel like you come off like all the JW I have encountered as knowing everything. And you nor myself knows EVERYTHING, only God.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969

dabmci,

Your post doesn't offer any points, except your opinion of what you think. Did you understand the point I made about translating from one language into another? If you disagree, make your case. Anyone can make baseless accusations. Those mean nothing. Would you like to see how your Bible adds words to accomodate the english language? If your Bible adds words then apperently you will need to rethink your position. Confused or disgusted

Answering this question shouldn't be too taxing for your limited time.

Do you believe Jesus was elevated above the one who elevated him???

If you have time answer this as well.

The Bible also says Jesus was given all authority. Does that mean Jesus has authority over God?

Instead of just giving your opinion of me or JW's why don't you try to make your points. Very Happy

If you want a discussion, lets discuss. Start by answering the questions. Cool

_________________
Agape,
TBax

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

I've been thinking about this issue some more...
These concepts of "authority over", and "submit to", and others that TBax refers to need to be understood in their correct context. God is the only authority in creation, note that the word authority comes from the word "author", meaning creator. But God creates everything through His Word, so His Word also has authority over everything. You can't talk about His Word having authority over God, because they are one. His Word comes from Him, so there is no question of a difference.
Note that these relationship words such as over, to, in, through, toward, of, etc need to be understood with clarity. For the sake of being able to talk to people who understand things in finite terms, the Bible and God's prophets have traditionally spoken in human terminology that was popular at the time, and because of this it is possible to misinterpret what they say, and it becomes nonsense.
Jesus is a man, with a body, and you can see Him. So for that reason people will say that He is not God, since you can't see God. All the other arguments against the trinity are based on the same principle of looking at things in finite terms. All of these arguments are tangential to the point that trinitarians are making, since they do not deal with the underlying principle of unity. Obviously we have to use terms that can appear to suggest a difference or a division. It is the nature of human understanding that we see things in terms of division - light, dark, up down, etc. This is the nature of finite perception. But in God's mind up and down, light and dark, and all other oppositions belong to the same principle of truth, because they all stem from Him.
It takes a humble, quiet mind to understand these things. The nature of the mind is to always try to make things make sense, and only by submitting to a higher principle, which seems to be nonsense at first, can you learn to understand these higher principles. Then you will see that your earlier complaints were all on a tangent, not getting to the heart of the matter at all.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969

1 Cor 15:27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

Exactly. A true statement, and a good example of the type of statement that can throw people off when they don't understand what the Trinity teaching is about. This statement refers to finite relationships and perspectives, but the Trinity refers to an infinite perspective.
Infinity is strange like that, and it takes some getting used to. For example, half of infinity is infinity. Strange right? The usual mathematics of the finite realm does not hold true when dealing with infinity. Check it out.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969

Vibrate,

Don't you believe it is important to verify what you say with scripture? The trinity teaching isn't in the Bible. God reveals Himself in the Bible as one person. That is why the Bible refers to Him in this finite relationship and perspective. That is how He revealed himself. Cool

If the scriptures don't reveal the truth, then what is the point. You can make up anything you want and say "It is possible, for God is infinite". Rolling Eyes

Stick to the scriptures and read them in context. Very Happy

They reveal the truth. Jesus is not God the Son, but the Son of God.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

The point I was making in my last post was simply that your many biblical quotes referring to Jesus and God as separate do not necessarily indicate anything conclusively. I was simply pointing out that your approach does not consider the mathematics of infinity.
As far as showing in the bible where it does say that Jesus is God, that is easy, but again, they will be inconclusive to someone who is just reading with their brain and not with their heart. You have to experience to Trinity to know the reality of it, and then you will read it in the bible and understand that this is what the bible is talking about.The quote from 1 Corinthians talks about them being one. Then there is John 1:1, and the part in John that we have discussed already, when Jesus was praying for oneness.
However, I am aware that there are other ways to read this.
You have obviously learned to read the bible in a certain way, which will result in a certain interpretation. Now it will be a challenge for you to read it with an open mind to all the possible interpretations that may be possible, and to examine with an open heart the possibility that Jesus may indeed be God. Are you willing to test it out? If not, then don't bother to come back with the old party line. Your comments are only worthwhile if you are willing to test a different perspective by rereading with an open mind and heart.
I think that the reality of the trinity is something that you and the JW organization have never even thought about; but you have just dismissed it based on the grammar of finite reality, which we have discussed. If this is the case, then doesn't it deserve that you test it out? If it is false, then God will show you that it is false, and you will be able to strengthen others with the knowledge you have received. But as things stand, JW is not dealing with the issue being raised, but just citing circumstantial evidence that has to do with finite grammar, which has been explained already. So you decide what to do.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:30 am Post subject:

just thinking..

I see Abraham the Father of us all..The Highest.
I see the Rich Man-Jehovah having the whole world subject unto him. All the riches of the world, all carnal knowledge, all works..etc..
I see Lazarus- Jesus being given authority over all those things which are spiritual, spiritual riches, knowledge, works..etc..

Now the rich man lived according to the carnal world and died. And when lazarus lived according to the spiritual world and was persecuted by the rich man and his carnal world.

So in the end Lazarus recieves the good things which the rich man lost..thereby putting Jehovah in subjection to Jesus and then Jesus bringing all things under subjection to Father Abraham.

Which is the friend of God. So then God/Jehovah, lays his life down for his Friend/Abraham and delivers up the kingdom to Christ...so that in the all they all recieve the benefits of God the Father/Abraham, God the Son/Jehovah, And God the Holy Spirit/Jesus.

And the promise of the Faith of Abraham is to his Son/Jehovah throuh His Spirit..and to all who believe in him the Spirit which is Jesus.

And yet, Jesus says..before Abraham was I am. So then the Spirit even precedes Abraham, so then Jesus is the Head. But he has subjected himself to his Father Abraham. Because he came in the form of man and Abraham is the father of us all.

So then these three agree in one.

And that one is the very Spirit of God.

just tossin..
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Vibrate · Little Hamster Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 77

Yeah. These things can go back and forth a lot, and it's interesting to see how our finite relationship structures stand up to consideration of the infinite realities of life. Good mental practice. I appreciate what you're trying to do by posting that.
Here's another somewhat random thought, which came up in a conversation I had just a moment ago:
We are all persons, and God is a person. Now, traditionally people think of the concept of a person as something distinct from other persons; something unique and different from any other. Yet we all spring forth from God. The bible says that God breathed life into Adam, so he became a living soul.
So it is quite astounding that different people proceed out of the mouth of one person. It is just a limitation of finite thinking, and finite language that it is difficult for us to contemplate how this works.
Thinking about infinity, we just have to remember to be still, and view God with reverence and stand in awe.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject:

It's absolutely awesome..

consider God created Adam..flesh
breathed into Adam...spirit..
and the two became a new creation..flesh and spirit as one..

so we have three..flesh, spirit, and both combined to make a new one.

now Adam being both flesh and spirit..from him proceeds both flesh and spirit..
that is to say, his thoughts, deeds, actions, children..everythong that comes forth of him is both flesh and spirit.

And each seed has it's own kind..as those things which are of the flesh and those things which are of the spirit.
And so we see Cain/flesh and Abel/Spirit.
God took Eve out of Adam..so Adam was flesh Eve was Spirit..
Adam is dead flesh, Eve is living spirit..
and between them both the world as one also became divided..
We have two lists in the NT concerning the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit.
And we see that the fruits of the flesh lead to death and the fruit of the spirit lead to life..and so Eve is the mother of the living seed..and Adam is the Father of the devil seed.

but in the end both seed become one in Christ because he is Lord of both the living and the dead.

He is Lord of the flesh and we bring our flesh under subjection of his spirit. and he is the Lord of the living and we bring our spirit under the subjection of is spirit..
so then he is all and in all. And we become a new creature again..or as Adam was before the fall.
Before the flesh and spirit were divided and at enmity with one another.

there is no depth to infinity..only our own minds are held captive in the finite.
But when we give our minds to Christ our thoughts become infinitive.

totally mind boggling and very cool.. Very Happy

also when we consider the water the spirit and the blood.
How blood is made up of water and spirit and it is life.

always one+one=one.. Confused or disgusted

The head + the body= one complete man..

so two become one..
need to go back to school and rethink my math..

checking out the platypus thread lol..
it's God's way of showing us how we are all apart of each other...very simple..but we make it so complicated..lol

if a platypus can be comfortable with it's own self as three in one..why can't we?
sometimes I think animals are smarter than people..lol
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.