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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: atheists are snakes |
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LOL..
Atheists correct me if I'm wrong, do not believe in a God that is somewhere "out there". They believe in their own ability to make right choices and to face the consequences of bad choices.
Some call this critical thinking.
Is thinking for oneself wrong?
When Jesus was walking among the "enemies" of free thinking people..They called him a devil and the prince of demons..basically they called him satan that old serpent that tried to lead them astray in the beginning.
But what really did Jesus come to steal us away from? Wasn't it "mind control"? That others who felt they had the authority of God and could Lord over others would make rules and then if not followed would beat, torture, main and kill those who opposed "their way of thinking".
Those who "oppose" the law are the snakes in the eyes of those who want to have dominion and superiority over others.
Now Atheists don't believe in a God per say..they are their own God. They make their own rules, they have their own system of right and wrong..
is this wrong?
In my opinion Christ came to be the first one born who would lead men away from the dictatorship control of the law of men, and to teach people to think for themselves..
to be "free" thinkers or critical thinkers..
there are a few verses in the bible that come to mind concerning those who will be led of their own minds verses others who choose to be led by others:
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
and we know that the bondage which Paul speaks is the law.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Even atheists are required to have some form of morality towards others. They know within themselves if something is good and kind or malicious and evil:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
So Atheists, I have a question..
what does God mean to you?
Do you believe that you yourselves are God..able to make your own decisions and knowing right from wrong without being dictated to by laws of others?
If this is the case then you are a snake...
But you shouldn't use your "freedom" to attack others.
Because inside you know that that's hurtful and pushes others away from what your trying to show them.
God made man in his image..with the ability to know and to judge good things and evil things for themselves.
But many are held under the bondage still of not knowing that in order to achieve our God given ability we must learn to think for ourselves.
Christ died because he thought and stood up for what he thought was right and good. He was an independent from the mosaic system that ruled the world.
They killed him because he believed in himself.
So christians try to kill the snakes, and the snakes bite the christians..
not realizing that we're all in this together.. 
just some thoughts..
hugs
lone |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
So Atheists, I have a question..
what does God mean to you? |
I'll take a swing....God, as described in the "major religions" doesn't exist in the world that I live in. Whether He created the world or not, it's a moot point because he does not interact with the world as described in the Old Testament (Torah)...maybe after the whole Jesus thing, he said "I'm out" until the "second coming"...
As I've argued elsewhere the Biblical God is either cruel or apathetic. If he's a cruel, fine...but I choose not to worship a cruel God. I say cruel, because if God can end suffering (which if he's all loving he should) and doesn't (because he can, being omnipotent and all) then he's cruel. If he's simply apathetic, then there is little I can do to earn his favor. It's clear that those who ignore him and those that worship him endure similar terrestrial rewards/punishments, so there is no added benefit from worshiping God.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Do you believe that you yourselves are God.. |
nope. I can't "create" anything, only modify things that already exist. I'm certainly not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and definately not omnibenevolent.....nor am I eternal.....So, I'm no God.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
able to make your own decisions and knowing right from wrong |
yes...
| lone-traveler wrote: |
without being dictated to by laws of others? |
no...I generall follow the rules...rules that have developed (evolved) over time that create a more beneficial society (good for both the individual and the collective "good").
| lone-traveler wrote: |
If this is the case then you are a snake... |
do we get to pick? I've always been partial to "Black Mamba"
| lone-traveler wrote: |
But you shouldn't use your "freedom" to attack others.
Because inside you know that that's hurtful and pushes others away from what your trying to show them. |
I don't think I attack anyone....I do discuss things, but I accept that others hold differing views.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
God made man in his image..with the ability to know and to judge good things and evil things for themselves. |
Then God possesses jealousy, greed, and cruelty...and he allows his creation to pursue those traits....See point 1 above.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
But many are held under the bondage still of not knowing that in order to achieve our God given ability we must learn to think for ourselves. |
ok....but God is not a necessary condition for that to happen.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Christ died because he thought and stood up for what he thought was right and good. |
Well....he was crucified by the Romans because the Jewish elders felt he was a threat to their system....I don't Jesus sought it out (Thy will be done...and all that)
| lone-traveler wrote: |
He was an independent from the mosaic system that ruled the world. |
agree...he was the original hippie
| lone-traveler wrote: |
They killed him because he believed in himself. |
no, they killed him becuase he claimed to be the Messiah...folks were beginning to believe him...that threatened the "authorities", so, like others that claimed to be the Messiah....they killed him.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
So christians try to kill the snakes, and the snakes bite the christians.. |
I'd never bite you Lone 
| lone-traveler wrote: |
not realizing that we're all in this together.. |
AMEN!
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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your a sweetheart Pondering.. 
| Quote: | | As I've argued elsewhere the Biblical God is either cruel or apathetic. If he's a cruel, fine...but I choose not to worship a cruel God. I say cruel, because if God can end suffering (which if he's all loving he should) and doesn't (because he can, being omnipotent and all) then he's cruel. If he's simply apathetic, then there is little I can do to earn his favor. It's clear that those who ignore him and those that worship him endure similar terrestrial rewards/punishments, so there is no added benefit from worshiping God. |
Let's say You are God. You have the ability to be cruel or apathetic. You have chosen not to be cruel..
So You are not a cruel God.
I don't know what apathetic is. 
Let's say You are God. You have the ability to be good and loving. You have chosen to be good.
So You are a good loving God.
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
Do you believe that you yourselves are God..
Pondering:
nope. I can't "create" anything, only modify things that already exist. I'm certainly not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and definately not omnibenevolent.....nor am I eternal.....So, I'm no God. |
There are many things You create everyday. You have an "effect" on yourself and others by what you say or do. You can create feelings of happiness, anger, sadness, and those created feelings have different "manifestations". They can change people and they can change yourself. And You are eternal as long as people remember you for good or evil, You live on in others memories or reflections..
Jesus is eternal because the things he did and what was written of him is remembered. And those things can not be erased unless and until we erase them from our own memories.
As Moses is still a God because people still remember him as such.
Exd 4:10 ¶ And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I [am] not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I [am] slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Exd 4:12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
Exd 4:13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand [of him whom] thou wilt send.
Exd 4:14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, [Is] not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
Exd 4:15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
Exd 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, [even] he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.
Now consider this...Moses is talking in his head to himself, or the kingdom of God within him. He after seeing the affliction of the people in Egypt decides that they need to be set free. But he is not confident enough in himself and needs someone else to stand with him. His brother Aaron is a good speaker and Moses has the "idea" or "desire" to set them free, so together thought and mouth come together and make it happen.
So then Moses is God to those he is leading both into battle and out from under a mean dictatorship.
He saw good and evil and chose to do good by saving those who were oppressed.
Moses created a new way of life for those people. He set up laws and rules and do's and don'ts and created a kingdom or new body of people with many members.
Like when the U.S.A seperated from England. We had our "Fathers" that created with pen and paper a new world or kingdom or a new body made up of many members.
And we don't call them God and yet we hold to the laws that they set forth for us to follow. So in that case those who set the law down are God and we follow their words.
And because we are U.S. citizens we are sons and daughters of God who created this new kingdom we live in.
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
without being dictated to by laws of others?
Pondering:
no...I generall follow the rules...rules that have developed (evolved) over time that create a more beneficial society (good for both the individual and the collective "good"). |
and again you have "chosen" to follow that which is good because good is in you to follow. That is a God trait. To choose between good and evil.
You could choose to follow laws that kill people for picking up sticks on saturday, but you "choose" not too.
If something or some rules do not agree with that good, then you wouldn't do it because it's not in you to follow something you don't agree with.
You create your own rules for yourself..I will not do evil, I will not be hateful or spiteful, I will not hurt someone intentionally. I will follow that which is good and beneficial for both individuals and the collective good.
You also create rules in your own house. With your family, your children. You will be in by 10 oclock, you will not smoke or do drugs in my house..etc..
You have the God given ability to create all kinds of things..
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
But you shouldn't use your "freedom" to attack others.
Because inside you know that that's hurtful and pushes others away from what your trying to show them.
Pondering:
I don't think I attack anyone....I do discuss things, but I accept that others hold differing views. |
And I didn't have you in mind when I was saying that..
There are many in the world who ridicule "believers" and put them down and call them idiots or stupid for believing in things that others choose not to believe in.
Same goes the other way..believers calling unbelievers foolish and hateful and ignorant..yadda yadda..
It's not very productive..in my opinion..that's why there are wars because no one can discuss or communicate without putting the other side down, whichever side your on.
There are some though that are willing to reason within themselves whether what the other party is saying or if there is any truth in it. And they choose for themselves what they want to believe.
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
God made man in his image..with the ability to know and to judge good things and evil things for themselves.
Pondering:
Then God possesses jealousy, greed, and cruelty...and he allows his creation to pursue those traits....See point 1 above. |
You ever hear the expression "like Father like Son" or "like Mother like Daughter"?
If you are a jealous greedy and cruel parent and you have children who possess these same traits, chances are you won't speak out against them, because then you would have to condemn your own actions yourself.
However, If your children do not follow these same traits then some parents would call them wimps or babies or momma's boy..kind of thing.
The only time people try to change other people is when their own traits are not reflected in others.
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
But many are held under the bondage still of not knowing that in order to achieve our God given ability we must learn to think for ourselves.
Pondering:
ok....but God is not a necessary condition for that to happen. |
God is a voice that is in your heart and in your mind. God is your conscience, your judgement, your reasoning ability. If you don't have God in you then you are a vegetable or a fruit..LOL.sorry I mean no disrespect, just that we are made to think and to reason and to judge that is our "heritage".
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
Christ died because he thought and stood up for what he thought was right and good.
Pondering:
Well....he was crucified by the Romans because the Jewish elders felt he was a threat to their system....I don't Jesus sought it out (Thy will be done...and all that) |
After 33 years of living under the Roman empire and under the authority of the Jews, Jesus knew exactly what would happen if he opposed the system. He knew the laws after going into the temple daily and listening and teaching them.
Jesus came to "change the world". And the only way this could be done would be to see it through to the end.
There really was no other way. The only "hope" of this world changing event would be in those whom he had chosen to be "his mouth" and to carry on the change of winds that would eventually lead to the demise of the God Moses and his laws.
Today Moses is not God, Jesus is. Because his ways were good and merciful and forgiving and loving. And we choose to follow this course that he took and continue changing the world for the better.
Under Moses law there was no mercy, no forgiveness..or if there was it was buried so deep in the books that you had to "glean" them out of it. You really had to "dig" for the little nuggets of love that was buried inside the law.
God's will or the will of Jesus Christ was to see the world change by giving new laws concerning love, joy, kindness, patience, mercy. Or uncovering those nuggets that had been hidden. And in order for that to happen he couldn't run away from the results of his actions. He had to take full responsibility and physically demonstrate what really loving others takes.
If You could change the world and make everything good, but you had to die to make it so...would you?
Do you love the world and all the people in it enough to lay your own life on the line for it?
I believe that's what Jesus did. And if he had run from the authorities he would have been running from those he proffessed he loved and wanted to change the world for.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
They killed him because he believed in himself.
Pondering:
no, they killed him becuase he claimed to be the Messiah...folks were beginning to believe him...that threatened the "authorities", so, like others that claimed to be the Messiah....they killed him. |
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Jesus was telling them..Look, you have the authority to change, you have the authority to do good. It's not something you look for "out there". You have to look within yourself for it. He was teaching people to question the authorities, to judge for themselves, to think for themselves, and to make good decisions. Basically follow my example. If it's wrong don't do it, if it's good then do it. He was taking the control of thinking and giving it back to the people.
The Jews was the think tank, they made all the decisions and the people followed them whether good or bad.
| Quote: | | like others that claimed to be the Messiah....they killed him. |
But Jesus is the true Messiah because through him and by him the world was changed. A new "heaven" or way of thinking and a new "earth" or way of doing things was taking shape. A new "kingdom" was being built.
When God said in the beginning "let there be light". An "ability" to reason and think and judge, self- awareness, consciousness and critical thinking was being formed in man who before had only walked in blindness.
Let's say this is Jesus concerning the new church and this new world they are going to live in: his "vision"..
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Luk 14:25 ¶ And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
The difference between Jesus and those others is that Jesus truly did "transform" the world. By thoughts, by words, by deeds, and by faith that what he began to do would not be unfruitful. He had faith in himself and in his followers that together they would change the world.
We're still in the transition stages. Right now we are lukewarm as a people the human race as a whole.
The true fulfillment of prophecy will be seen when the words he spoke take full effect and people believe that they are able to make these changes themselves instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them.
The churches should be teaching people how to stand on their own two feet and to think for themselves and judge for themselves. But many like the authority they hold over others heads. All they need do is say the word:
kneel, and the whole congregation kneels, stand, and the whole congregation stands, sit, and the whole congregation sits. They are in the seat of God showing themselves that they alone are God, when in fact we are all Gods and are able to stand on our own, or sit on our own, or kneel on our own....
They like the Pharisees hide the keys to the kingdom and try to keep it for themselves.
Luk 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
The blind see..the truth.
The lame walk..they stand on their own two feet and walk in their own paths, not those others make them walk in.
The lepers are cleansed...those who were unclean or frowned upon as not good enough for their society or their kingdom.
The deaf hear..they are no longer ignorant and as dumb animals with yokes upon their necks.
The dead are raised...those who had no hope, no faith, that were dead in their spirits, Had their hope renewed, their faith growing strong, and their spirits made alive.
The poor the gospel is preached... They were made rich in knowledge and in truth. They were set free from those who held them captive by fear. The very kingdom of God was at hand, the knowledge of who they truly were, and it was in them all along they just didn't "know" it.
ok I'm ramblin..
I appreciate your input Pondering..
You may not consider yourself God, but at least you don't deny the power and God given ability within you.
The bible tells us God is Love, and if you have love in you then you are a man of God, or Son of God, a very part of God which is Love in you..
But to believe these things and to be in opposition to the "authorities" makes us all snakes in their eyes.
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
If this is the case then you are a snake...
Pondering:
do we get to pick? I've always been partial to "Black Mamba" |
I guess I'm a rattler..lol..
hugs
lone |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7629
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
But what really did Jesus come to steal us away from? Wasn't it "mind control"? |
If anything, the exact opposite is true. Religion is probably the most effective form of mind-control ever devised. If there's a better way to control a mass of people, I'm not aware of it.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Now Atheists don't believe in a God per say..they are their own God. They make their own rules, they have their own system of right and wrong..
is this wrong? |
Yes, this is wrong. I don't make my own rules. I live by the laws of the country I'm currently in, and beyond the law I always try to do what is right, where right is more or less defined by society. Everyone in our society has an intuitive understanding of right and wrong which is more or less the same.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
In my opinion Christ came to be the first one born who would lead men away from the dictatorship control of the law of men, and to teach people to think for themselves..
to be "free" thinkers or critical thinkers.. |
This just isn't backed up by the facts. Religion is all about NOT thinking critically and accepting *a lot* on faith. Faith is the complete lack of critical thinking.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
So Atheists, I have a question..
what does God mean to you?
Do you believe that you yourselves are God..able to make your own decisions and knowing right from wrong without being dictated to by laws of others? |
No, mostly I accept what society defines as right and wrong. Certainly I've never seen an example of an atheist who argued that killing little old ladies for their pensions was an ok thing to do.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Hi P123,
So if the "law of the land" was..if you see someone picking up sticks on saturday you will stone them..
you would do it?
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
In my opinion Christ came to be the first one born who would lead men away from the dictatorship control of the law of men, and to teach people to think for themselves..
to be "free" thinkers or critical thinkers..
P123:
This just isn't backed up by the facts. Religion is all about NOT thinking critically and accepting *a lot* on faith. Faith is the complete lack of critical thinking. |
hmm.. don't you have to have faith first before discovering whether it is fact or fiction?
for instance...
I believe that I will discover a new land on the other side of the ocean..
Columbus discovered America..
It was by faith first and then followed fact no?
Don't you have to have faith in something before it becomes true or false?
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
But what really did Jesus come to steal us away from? Wasn't it "mind control"?
P123:
If anything, the exact opposite is true. Religion is probably the most effective form of mind-control ever devised. If there's a better way to control a mass of people, I'm not aware of it. |
I would agree with you P123..Religion is something that is taught by man to uphold their beliefs. And if you do you go to heaven and if not your damned.
Do you think that atheism is a religion in itself?
I mean, if you are an atheist the main stream thinking is, or you are somehow pressured by that title to always have to deny faith. There isn't really much room in that title "atheist" to consider other options.
Your kind of mind-controlled by the Athiest think tank which says if you should begin to investigate hmm "spiritual things" then you are no longer one of "us".
I am neither religious nor atheist. I don't necessarilly follow the rules of religion and I don't necessarilly follow the rules of atheism.
I believe in the think tank in my own mind that works by faith and learns by that faith if those things I believe are fact or fiction.
I believe there was a man who was born to change the system that was set up in the world at that time. And the words he spoke about who we are as individuals and the power that we have over our own minds and bodies is truth.
This is where faith in what he said turns into fact or fiction by demonstrating those words in ones own life.
And that we don't need to lean on others understanding to be good or evil.
like you said:
| Quote: | | Everyone in our society has an intuitive understanding of right and wrong which is more or less the same. |
But it wasn't always so..or for the society as a whole.
They were taught "not" to lean on their own intuitive understanding of right and wrong, but what the leaders of that "religion" told them was right and wrong.
Today we are pretty much free to think or believe whatever is our own intuitive thinking of right and wrong...
I believe this is the goal Jesus set out for..
It began by faith..faith that his words could change the world..it became a fact, because today is changed from yesterday.
If Jesus hadn't come to destroy that "think tank religion" and it had grown stronger and more powerful and enveloped the whole world...where would we be today?
Same if the opposite had been true..Jesus came to make things good and fair for all men.
Unlike Hitler who only wanted to set up "his kingdom" and destroy all others that didn't fit in it.
Hitler's "kingdom" or "vision" wasn't much different than the "religion" which had been set up in Jerusalem.
They both wanted to destroy anything that was not "pure" or "perfect" in their society. Even though they themselves were murderers and thieves..
If Hitler hadn't been destroyed and He became "GOD" and society ran under his laws and his "think tank"..
would you still abide by the rules of society that said if you see a Jew kill him?
| Quote: | | I live by the laws of the country I'm currently in, and beyond the law I always try to do what is right, where right is more or less defined by society. |
Now let's say your intuitive thinking is different from that society..
You would be killed as well for standing up for the opposing side. You might try to protect them, or pity them, or have compassion on them...them being the imperfect sinners and unclean devils..
You would be looked at as a sympathizer and you would be counted among the transgressors yourself.
In the eyes of that society you would be a snake..
Because you didn't think the way they told you to think.
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
Now Atheists don't believe in a God per say..they are their own God. They make their own rules, they have their own system of right and wrong..
is this wrong?
P123:
Yes, this is wrong. I don't make my own rules. |
If you don't make your own rules then who's "think tank" are you living by?
If society as a whole was to suddenly turn malicious and evil, would you follow suit? Or do you have your "own rules" you would live by?
If you say you would follow the rules of that society then you are living according to that societies "religion".
If you say you have your own rules you would live by, then you are your own God.
Hey, I haven't given you one of these in a couple days..
(((HUGS)))
Lone |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7629
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
So if the "law of the land" was..if you see someone picking up sticks on saturday you will stone them..
you would do it?
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Nope. I understand the difference between civilized countries and uncivilized ones; I doubt very much that I'll ever visit a country such as the one you describe. For one, such countries are usually fanatically religious, and atheists should try to avoid them.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
hmm.. don't you have to have faith first before discovering whether it is fact or fiction? |
No; scientists formulate a hypothesis first. This is very different than faith. It's a guess based on evidence / intuition which is to be tested. That is very different from faith, which is a whole-hog belief and acceptance of something.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
for instance...
I believe that I will discover a new land on the other side of the ocean..
Columbus discovered America..
It was by faith first and then followed fact no? |
Not really; they knew that India existed. They were trying to find a shortcut to get there, but knew that they were going to find land. They were certainly courageous explorers, but it wasn't some kind of blind leap.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Do you think that atheism is a religion in itself?
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No, if anything it is the anti-religion. Religion requires some kind of belief in the mystical or supernatural or in a God or Gods or something like that. Atheism explicitly denies that and therefore is missing the *most* important prerequisite to be called a religion.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
I mean, if you are an atheist the main stream thinking is, or you are somehow pressured by that title to always have to deny faith. |
Not really; faith has its time and place, but mostly atheism just echoes what science says: That people should use their critical thinking skills.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Your kind of mind-controlled by the Athiest think tank which says if you should begin to investigate hmm "spiritual things" then you are no longer one of "us".
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There is no atheist think tank. Atheists are outrageously disorganized. There is no governing body, and it's hard to see how there could be one. Atheists are free-thinkers, and don't accept authority.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
| Quote: | | Everyone in our society has an intuitive understanding of right and wrong which is more or less the same. |
But it wasn't always so..or for the society as a whole.
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Yeah it was, more or less. Our morality is built into our genes. Humans which get along have stronger tribes and are more likely to pass their genes on to the next generation. It's natural selection.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
If society as a whole was to suddenly turn malicious and evil, would you follow suit? Or do you have your "own rules" you would live by?
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No, of course not. I guess the short answer is that we naturally follow our instincts. We all have empathy and sympathy, and that dictates our morality.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi P123,
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
hmm.. don't you have to have faith first before discovering whether it is fact or fiction?
P123 wrote:
No; scientists formulate a hypothesis first. This is very different than faith. It's a guess based on evidence / intuition which is to be tested. That is very different from faith, which is a whole-hog belief and acceptance of something. |
A guess based on intuition which is to be tested..hmm..
You know faith starts out as a little seed and needs to be tested from time to time too..
Faith comes in various amounts..some have very little..
oh ye of little faith..
and great faith..I have not seen such great faith no not in all of Israel..
We are to exercise our faith, grow in faith, nourish our faith..
so faith to me doesn't mean whole-hog belief and acceptance of something..if it did then we wouldn't be told to "prove" it.
| Quote: | | Nope. I understand the difference between civilized countries and uncivilized ones; I doubt very much that I'll ever visit a country such as the one you describe. For one, such countries are usually fanatically religious, and atheists should try to avoid them. |
what if you were born into one. how would you be able to make a distinction between the right way and the wrong way if you were taught from the day you were born to follow the rules of such a country as that?
| Quote: | | Our morality is built into our genes. Humans which get along have stronger tribes and are more likely to pass their genes on to the next generation. It's natural selection. |
So let's say you were born into one of those oppressive uncivilized countries..but in your genes your moral base was different from what that society demanded of you to follow.
What would you do?
| Quote: | | There is no atheist think tank. Atheists are outrageously disorganized. There is no governing body, and it's hard to see how there could be one. Atheists are free-thinkers, and don't accept authority. |
except for the governing laws of the society they live in..
In the beginning of christianity there really wasn't any governing body per say..everyone's church was in their own house. Everyone was kind of scattered everywhere.
But eventually like minded people began to congregate together and form one governing body from many different houses.
And all like minded people always have someone who is the strongest to lead their cause.
Let's take Dawkins for instance. There's a conversation going on up in Noah's lounge concerning him and his views, and many people "lean" on his hmm.."authority" to tell it like it is. Everyone is always looking for a "leader".
But basically when Jesus talked about how much faith you have in you and the the kingdom of God is in you..he wasn't telling people to seek out others to guide them. He was telling them that you have all the answers to your questions in you already...
there in your genes or spirit, in any case they are already in You.
Atheists are free thinkers and don't accept authority..
was Jesus a "free thinker"? did he accept the authority of those in the synagogue?
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Do you have the authority to execute your own judgement?
If you see something wrong, do you have the authority to judge that something as wrong?
Do you have this authority within yourself?
Is knowing the difference between good and evil..and having authority to execute that judgment..a sign of "life" within yourself..
"life" meaning the ability or authority to be a "free thinker".
I believe that "the dead" are those who don't think for themselves, they have no authority in themselves to make right judment or choices. They just do whatever their told without regarding the consequences of their actions. Having their conscience seered with a hot iron.
Atheists don't believe in religion.
But the bible defines religion in this manner:
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God (which is in you) and the Father (which is in you) is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
unspotted:
1) spotless
2) metaph.
a) free from censure, irreproachable
b) free from vice, unsullied
spot:
Spot (Noun and Verb):
"a spot or stain," is used metaphorically
(a) of moral blemish, Eph 5:27;
(b) of lascivious and riotous persons, 2Pe 2:13.
in your previous post you wrote:
| Quote: | | I live by the laws of the country I'm currently in, and beyond the law I always try to do what is right, |
so then you strive to keep yourself unspotted or without moral blemish. You try to do the right thing always.
And I know from former discussions that you always try to help others in need when it is in your power to do so.
So what makes you think you don't have a religion?
Not according to how the world defines religion but the very religion you yourself lives by.
Now the Jews religion was very different from what pure and undefiled religion is described as.
But if you chose to follow "your religion" then you were a snake.
I know I'm bouncing around with your reply..sorry, it's just the way I think about the answers..lol..
| Quote: | | They were certainly courageous explorers, but it wasn't some kind of blind leap. |
If you don't know what's at the end of the tunnel and you set out to explore it to find out what's at the other end..you don't consider that a blind leap?
If I set out to explore something and I don't know what the results will be, I would consider myself leaping blindly into something until I was enlightened by what I found..
| Quote: | | but knew that they were going to find land. |
How did they "know" they was going to find land? Wasn't the world "flat" at the time? Didn't they "believe" that you would fall off the edge of the world?
Someone must have had some faith believing the world was "round"..until they discovered it as a "fact".
| Quote: | | Religion requires some kind of belief in the mystical or supernatural or in a God or Gods or something like that. Atheism explicitly denies that and therefore is missing the *most* important prerequisite to be called a religion. |
Not according to what I quoted above regarding "religion".
It's all about YOU.
So if Atheism is denying the most important prerequisite to be called a religion....that's kind of scary huh? 
| Quote: | | faith has its time and place, but mostly atheism just echoes what science says: That people should use their critical thinking skills. |
let's look at some critical thinking:
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 21:28 ¶ But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
there are a lot of places where Jesus asks them to "think". Use you own mind and stop worrying about what others tell you to think.
Mar 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
you mean you want me to choose??..
maybe I'm not hearing what your saying P123..
how do you define "critical thinking"?
Thankyou for having this discussion with me. I'm truly enjoying it..
Hugs
lone |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
This just isn't backed up by the facts. Religion is all about NOT thinking critically and accepting *a lot* on faith. Faith is the complete lack of critical thinking.
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I'm afraid you're wrong there P1; the exact opposite is true, and that is not what the Bible says: Hebrews 11:1; "Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen."
It applies not only to the Bible, but every other area of investigation. We have faith in a lot of things in our daily lives that we don't even think about. We'd be paranoid out of our minds if we didn't.
On the other hand, atheists haven't a shred of evidence
for their position - seen or unseen. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7629
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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| Pete wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
This just isn't backed up by the facts. Religion is all about NOT thinking critically and accepting *a lot* on faith. Faith is the complete lack of critical thinking.
|
I'm afraid you're wrong there P1; the exact opposite is true, and that is not what the Bible says: Hebrews 11:1; "Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen." |
Faith isn't evidence by any stretch of the imagination.
| Pete wrote: |
It applies not only to the Bible, but every other area of investigation. We have faith in a lot of things in our daily lives that we don't even think about. We'd be paranoid out of our minds if we didn't. |
If you're talking about the fact that I 'assume' that the sun is going to come up, that cars are going to stop for me when I cross the street, and that the light switch won't electrocute me when I flip it, that's not faith. It's inductive reasoning. There's a big difference.
| Pete wrote: |
On the other hand, atheists haven't a shred of evidence
for their position - seen or unseen. |
A disbelief in God isn't about evidence. It's about critical thinking. Science and logic demand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God is about the most extraordinary claim anyone could possibly come up with. It requires evidence, and yet there is none.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:41 am Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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[quote="P1234567890"][quote="Pete"] | P1234567890 wrote: |
| Pete wrote: |
On the other hand, atheists haven't a shred of evidence
for their position - seen or unseen. |
A disbelief in God isn't about evidence. It's about critical thinking. Science and logic demand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God is about the most extraordinary claim anyone could possibly come up with. It requires evidence, and yet there is none. |
All one has to do is open his eyes to see that everything around us is the result of a creative process. Atheism is about as far removed from logic and observation of life around us as it is possible to get.
The idea that an interrelated, interdependent, highly sophisticated world is the result of blind chance, and that it initially appeared out of nothing, is rediculous to the extreme. It is a complete denial of scientific evidence all around us.
I think it's about time for atheists to prove their position with something more than bashing creationism - like a little observable, scientific evidence. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7629
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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| Pete wrote: |
All one has to do is open his eyes to see that everything around us is the result of a creative process.
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Sure, but that creative process is not intelligent.
| Pete wrote: |
Atheism is about as far removed from logic and observation of life around us as it is possible to get.
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I'm about a hair shy of getting my Ph.D. in logic, and I assure you that this isn't true at all. In fact, atheism is the *only* viewpoint consistent with Science.
| Pete wrote: |
The idea that an interrelated, interdependent, highly sophisticated world is the result of blind chance, and that it initially appeared out of nothing, is rediculous to the extreme. |
Sure, I agree. Everyone agrees about this. 108
| Pete wrote: |
I think it's about time for atheists to prove their position with something more than bashing creationism - like a little observable, scientific evidence. |
You don't read my posts at all, do you? If you want atheism to give evidence that a God who is undetectable by science does not exist, then don't hold your breath. That's not what atheism is about.
Atheism is about believing that God doesn't exist because this is the most sound conclusion to come to.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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| Pete wrote: |
All one has to do is open his eyes to see that everything around us is the result of a creative process.
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| P123 wrote: |
Sure, but that creative process is not intelligent. |
Does it take intelligence to create a theory or a hypothesis? Does it take intelligence to create a stable home?
| Pete wrote: |
Atheism is about as far removed from logic and observation of life around us as it is possible to get.
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| P123 wrote: |
I'm about a hair shy of getting my Ph.D. in logic, and I assure you that this isn't true at all. In fact, atheism is the *only* viewpoint consistent with Science. |
Again I agree, because science is only "skin deep". It doesn't look beyond what it can't see. What you can't see is based on faith not science.
| Pete wrote: |
I think it's about time for atheists to prove their position with something more than bashing creationism - like a little observable, scientific evidence. |
| P123 wrote: | You don't read my posts at all, do you? If you want atheism to give evidence that a God who is undetectable by science does not exist, then don't hold your breath. That's not what atheism is about.
Atheism is about believing that God doesn't exist because this is the most sound conclusion to come to. |
In truth though..Atheism should have "no belief" whatsoever concerning the existence of God or not, because Atheism is built on a non-belief system..true?
So if you say you "believe" or have "faith" that there is no God..then that statement alone nullifies your "belief" in "faith", no?
I hope you guys are having an AWESOME day!
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: atheists are snakes |
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| Pete wrote: |
I think it's about time for atheists to prove their position with something more than bashing creationism - like a little observable, scientific evidence. |
Atheists sport a lack of belief reflective of an absence of evidence supporting anything contrary.
It's about time you, Pete, prove your position that I don't have a green cat. Go ahead; try it.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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LOL..
shouldn't make fun of that green cat theory Ana..LOL
They came out with a way now to mess with the genes and make green flourescent cats that glow in the dark..and bats and mice...
LOL...
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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