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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | Colter you answer was very informative thank you.
FFT, I probably should have started earlier in Zach 12, my main point in asking was concerning this passage I believe it is Jesus revealing Himself to Israel as their crucified Messiah. I would like to hear other interpretation of what this scripture is proclaiming if you have an idea. |
James
I also believe it is a prophecy. And yes it is twice confirmed/quoted as such in the NT - once at the crucifixion, once in Rev1 relating the Matt23:39 repentance at the second coming.
Cheers
S.
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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When a woman addresses her husband as "My Lord and my God" she is expressing her respect for her husband.
In that culture "god" is like we might say master.
Today in English we have converted 'god' to mean deity. But you can not get that meaning from the Bible.
Moses was told that he would be 'god' and Aaron would be his 'prophet'. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Galen  | galen wrote: | | When a woman addresses her husband as "My Lord and my God" she is expressing her respect for her husband. |
In English maybe, but not in Greek. She'd really need to say "My Lord and God" to call her husband God. She'd need to drop the second "my".
I believe Thomas is recognising Christ "My Lord" and that God has raised him "and my God" - the reason being Thomas and Jesus' two previous conversations in John. This third one brings Thomas to a belief in the power of God to raise, and understanding of Christ as his Lord, but God is still Thomas' God.
| Quote: | | Moses was told that he would be 'god' and Aaron would be his 'prophet'. |
Although the Hebrew doesn't have a specific particle for "as God", my understanding is that - I'm told - it doesn't need one, the meaning is still "as God". Even if that's wrong, and my Hebrew is far from as good as needed to assess it, Moses could still be "a god", but it would not change what "a god" means.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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John 8 | Quote: | 12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. |
1st century culture tells us that a son is a legitimate representation of his father unless proven otherwise, (and then he would be stoned )
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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From the Christian Think-Tank: | Quote: |
# Jn 3.13: No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man.--Notice: a statement of pre-existence (in heaven), and uniqueness in terms of having 'gone into heaven'. ("has ever gone" is in the perfect tense, and probably denotes some sense like "no one has ever taken up permanent dwelling in heaven").
# Jn 3.15: that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.--This is just the first of SCORES of verses that demonstrate that Jesus was aware that He was BOTH appropriate as the object of religious trust AND sufficient to produce salvation!
# (The deity-rich text of 3.16-21 is uncertain as to who its speaker is--Jesus or John. I will treat it under 'responses of His followers' for the sake of caution.)
# Jn 4.10: Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."--Notice: Jesus is able to give 'living water' (elsewhere identified as the Holy Spirit--7.37-39).
# Jn 4.25-26: The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."--Notice: explicit claim to be the Messiah.
# Jn 5.17ff: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.--Notice several things about this important passage: (1) Jesus claim to be the Son is understood by the audience as blasphemy--a claim to deity!; (2) Jesus response is NOT to say 'hey, but I am using sonship DIFFERENTLY than that-i am NOT claiming to be God'--instead He simply continues describing the incredible unity between Himself and the Father (the Father's works are the Son's works, the Son knows EVERYTHING the Father does, Son gives life JUST LIKE THE FATHER DOES, Father entrusts ALL judgment to the Son, the Son is supposed to be honored 'just as' the Father is honored(!), dishonoring the Son is tantamount to dishonoring the Father). These are INCREDIBLY EXORBITANT claims (for a 'mere creature'!). The Father and Son are co-extensive in work and honor.
# Jn 5.39: You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,--Another clear claim to be the OT messiah.
# Jn 5.40: yet you refuse to come to me to have life. --Notice: Jesus claims here to be the 'giver of life'! That he has authority/power to grant life.
# Jn 6.33: For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."--Jesus claims here to have 'come down from heaven'. A very clear pre-existence reference, involving heaven.
# Jn 6.38: For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.--Notice: another VERY clear reference to Jesus' pre-existence in heaven.
# Jn 6.46: No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.--This is an unusually strong statement. No one has seen the invisible Father, except the Son who is 'from God'. A very strong claim to uniqueness, exclusivity, and intimacy with the Father. |
www.christian-thinktank.com/trin03c.html
There are about fifty pages of material too much to include it all but it is well worth the reading.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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45degreeN,
The point your were making posting that isn't at all clear. 
Their conclusions don't seem to be making a single point, but many scattered points. Jesus is indeed the messiah and had a prehuman existence. Also Jesus is able to give life giving water through the Holy Spirit which Jesus receives from the Father and gives to his disciples. Jesus did represent the Father while on earth, so if one rejects the Son that one also rejects the Father who sent him. So what was the point? 
What was that suppose to be saying?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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dabmci
Ferret
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
Hi I am new to this fourm but what I read from 45 it seem very clear that is was stating that Jesus seems to have all the qualities that the Father has and even the people understood it to be so by there remarks (They wanted to stone him because he claimed to be equal with the Father) The passages are very clear here. Don't put words in the writters mouth just read and understand. If it walks like a duck........ |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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dabmci,
Hi,
I understand all those scriptures, and the fact that Jesus posseses the same qualities as the Father. After all, he was created in God's image. However, even though Jesus perfectly represented the Father Jesus was not the Father, nor was he making himself equal to God. Jesus didn't make that claim, but his opposers did. If you want to believe Jesus' opposers, that is your call. 
What did Jesus say?
19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Jesus learns from the Father and does the same. They indeed work together, in unity. Yet Jesus isn't equal to God.
(John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
We should believe Jesus' word instead of his opposers words.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: |
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To understand what is said one needs to understand what a first century person living in Jerusalem might understand if he heard Jesus say those words.
Clearly, Jesus is making Himself equal with God.
However in the 21st century, we just hear them differently and understand something slightly less offensive to our ears. Jesus was making a blasphemous statement if it were not true, as offensive as one could get in front of those Jewish leaders.
Matt28: | Quote: | | 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you |
Does this sound like some hesitation or slightly less than God or is it outright claiming the power of God!
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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dabmci
Ferret
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
I have a few questions for you if you don't mind.
1. You are telling me he can do what the Father does and not be equal with the Father?
2. How many prophets ever made the claims he made about himself and in the process were killed because they (the Jewish people) thought they were equal with the Father.
3. Is it possible the the JW teachings could be wrong just as you believe Christains teachings are wrong?
I am here to get a better understanding of what other groups believe and express my beliefs, not to change anyone's mind. That is God's job. I throw seeds nothing more.
Oh BTW 45 I do not by no means believe that the Father is the Son. I know ther are differences between the two in terms of Relationship and Roles. I don't like the word trinity because it does not correctly express what the God Head is but I would say Triune would best fit how I see GOD. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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dabmci,
Hi,
| dabmci wrote: | | 1. You are telling me he can do what the Father does and not be equal with the Father? |
Yes. The Father gives Jesus the authority to do such things. Regarding being equal with God, what did Jesus say?
(John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
If you want to discount Jesus' words and use your reasoning, that is up to you.
| dabmci wrote: | | 2. How many prophets ever made the claims he made about himself and in the process were killed because they (the Jewish people) thought they were equal with the Father. |
Do you believe the Jewish people who killed Jesus were interested in truth? Individuals will do things imagining they are doing God a favor. Whatever their supposed rational, people who killed the prophets or even Jesus, try to justify their actions, yet aren't in line with truth. They also claimed Jesus was in league with Satan. Was that true as well??????? Why would you look at what the opposers say as truth?????????????
John 16:2 Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God.
Whatever opposers imagine isn't truth.
| dabmci wrote: | | 3. Is it possible the the JW teachings could be wrong just as you believe Christains teachings are wrong? |
JW teachings are Christian teachings. Teaching that originate in pagan cultures, like the trinity or a triune Godhead is wrong, and not scriptural nor "Christian".
Deut 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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45degreeN,
| 45degreeN wrote: | | Quote: | | Matt28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you |
Does this sound like some hesitation or slightly less than God or is it outright claiming the power of God! |
Who gave Jesus this authority? Was it perhaps God Himself??????
Phil 2:9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
If God gave Jesus authority, Jesus indeed has that authority! Plus this is showing showing Jesus isn't Himself God, but recieved authority FROM GOD.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Have you ever sat down and thought about what Yeshua would tell you. When did He ever say He was God? As a Hebrew, raised by Hebrew parents, having read the Hebrew scriptures and the prophecies about Him, where would you get the idea He thought He was a God or part of a trinity? From your church? Yes I believe that's where you got it, because that's where I got it. That is not what the Bible teaches and no amount of twisting the words of scripture can change it. No Hebrew would have followed Yeshua If He claimed He was God, and He got 12 Hebrew men to follow Him at the beginning of His ministry. |
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dabmci
Ferret
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
dabmci wrote:
1. You are telling me he can do what the Father does and not be equal with the Father?
TBax wrote:
Yes. The Father gives Jesus the authority to do such things. Regarding being equal with God, what did Jesus say?
(John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
If you want to discount Jesus' words and use your reasoning, that is up to you.
I want to believe what the bible says and, John 16:2 that you quoted is what it says, but what does that mean? What was he talking about? You see I am here to learn. Not here to cut anyone down. I am asking honest questions and I take it back to the bible to see the truth. So if I am correct you are saying if the bible says the sky was black you would believe that the sky is black right? I am asking these questions for a reason and when you respond I will tell you why I ask. Again I am here to learn not to put anyone down or make myself feel like I know it all. No one or Group knows everything.
dabmci wrote:
2. How many prophets ever made the claims he made about himself and in the process were killed because they (the Jewish people) thought they were equal with the Father.
TBax wrote:
Do you believe the Jewish people who killed Jesus were interested in truth? Individuals will do things imagining they are doing God a favor. Whatever their supposed rational, people who killed the prophets or even Jesus, try to justify their actions, yet aren't in line with truth. They also claimed Jesus was in league with Satan. Was that true as well??????? Why would you look at what the opposers say as truth?????????????
John 16:2 Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God.
Whatever opposers imagine isn't truth.
This is a yes and no answer as you should know that. Yes some were interested in the truth and some found it. Others did not want to loose the positions they had in the community so they did and said whever they needed to say to benifit themselves. Some just were too scared to go against the people who had the power at the time. And there were some that just flat out did not believe he was the one who the scriptures talked about because they were looking for a king like David who would overthrow the physical goverment. That is why they did what they did. Oh BTW you never answered that question with a yes or no.
dabmci wrote:
3. Is it possible the the JW teachings could be wrong just as you believe Christains teachings are wrong?
TBax wrote:
JW teachings are Christian teachings.Teaching that originate in pagan cultures, like the trinity or a triune Godhead is wrong, and not scriptural nor "Christian".
Deut 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
look, I understand that the "Word" trinity does not show up anywhere in the scriptures, i will give you that, but when you answer the second question I asked you I will tell you how and why many Christains come to the conclusion they do about how God makes himself know to man.
Again thanks for the feedback. |
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dabmci
Ferret
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Rocket,
Hello I have sat down and thought what Jesus would say. The same thing he said to Thomas, the same thing he said to Peter. You keep talking about the word trinity as if I ever told you I believe in "the trinity" as you understand it. Backup I never asked you what is your definition of what you think Christains such as myself believe the trinity is. As I stated below I don't like the word because it does not best describe what and who I believe the Father, Son and Holy Sprit are.
You talk as if you are God and know my life or what my church teaches. This is one of the problems within the discussion fourms. Too many people speak without knowing. I am here to learn and ask questions. If there is something I feel I can bring to the table I speak if not I listen and understand. Try not to judge me. You don't have all the answers yourself. BTW what group do you belong to? I know TBax is a JW. Even though I don't believe all that he believes there are many things I do like about there group that I could only wish other Christain groups would do, and again there are things I just flat don't agree with.
Thanks |
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