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rufus
Big Goldfish
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 68
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Check to see if the first century Christians held political office or even joined the military. |
They did. And there are some examples in the bible.
| Quote: | Erastus the city treasurer....greet you.
Romans 16:24 |
Here in Romans 16 where Paul cites the personal greetings from some of the first century christians he cites Erastus, a "public official".
| Quote: | All the saints greet you, especially those of the emperor's household.
Philippians 4:22 |
The phrase "emperor's household" (Caesar's household) refers to administrators and military persons both in Rome and the provinces. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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TBax,
You know NOTHING about first century Christians....ZERO! The little writing we do have from that period, including the Scriptures, has been privately interpretated by your little cult leaders. You have devotion to them, and the cult....thats what you believe in. You believe in a bible that was developed here in the latter times. You have NOTHING to do with first century Christians. Do not try to con me....it's not going to happen |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Great post rufus! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Rom 16:23 Ga′ius, my host and that of all the congregation, greets YOU. E·ras′tus the city steward greets YOU, and so does Quar′tus his brother. 24 ——
| Quote: | | However, since it would have been difficult for Erastus to accompany Paul and at the same time care for his duties as city steward, those who favor this identification generally conclude that Erastus held this official position at an earlier time and therefore Paul refers to him by this title. |
E·ras′tus was a common name back then. Perhaps Paul use this previous title to differentiat him from others.
Phil 4:22 All the holy ones, but especially those of the household of Caesar, send YOU their greetings.
The assumption that they were government administrators and military persons is not indicated. Having a job and participating in government officiating are two different things.
| Quote: | | The expression “household of Caesar” does not necessarily refer to immediate family members of Nero, then reigning. Rather, it may apply to domestic servants and minor officials, who perhaps rendered such household services as cooking and cleaning in behalf of the imperial family and staff. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
You are rambling once again.
| Dust wrote: | | You know NOTHING about first century Christians....ZERO! |
Even if that was true Edward Gibbon and Professor Robert L. Wilken know plenty from what history tells them.
| Dust wrote: | | Do not try to con me |
Con you with what historians said?
Edward Gibbon is not a JW, or my leader. He is a historian.
| Quote: | In his book History of Christianity, Edward Gibbon wrote that first-century Christians “refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire,” and that “it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”
...
“There was a conviction widely held among Christians that none of their number should hold office under the state . . . As late as the beginning of the third century Hippolytus said that historic Christian custom required a civic magistrate to resign his office as a condition of joining the Church.” |
Robert L. Wilken is not a JW, or my leader, but the PROFESSOR OF THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANITY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA.
| Quote: | | Professor Robert L. Wilken writes: “Christians not only refused [Roman] military service but they would not accept public office nor assume any responsibility for the governing of the cities.” (The Christians as the Romans Saw Them) Refusal could mean being branded lawbreakers or being condemned to the Roman arena. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Edward Gibbon is not a JW, or my leader. He is a historian. |
Does he bring up the fact that first century Christians were not associated with the JW cult? I mean, if you're trying to be like first century Christians and all, this might be relevent....especially in your particular case. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
WOW! That was so reasonable. 
First of all, JW's are not a cult. However, early Christians were called a cult by their adversaries as well.  Another similarity. 
If Edward Gibbon were to compare the first century Christians beliefs with modern JW's the similarity would be near identicle.
For now we know
| Edward Gibbon wrote: | “it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”
“There was a conviction widely held among Christians that none of their number should hold office under the state" |
| Professor Robert L. Wilken wrote: | | “Christians not only refused [Roman] military service but they would not accept public office nor assume any responsibility for the governing of the cities.” |
Same with JW's. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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T,
This whole line of reasoning is irrelevent. Even if first century Christians were afforded the right to vote, and did not; As it evident, James did not prohibit them from voting, leading a community, or holding government office, as you have asserted in this thread.
btw, the scriptures available to these first century Christians for most of the century, were the OT scriptures, which during the course of this discussion, you've tossed out as being irrelevent. It seems now you have replaced the OT writings on this subject, with the writings of "Edward Gibbon", who ever he is....authoritively speaking. |
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rufus
Big Goldfish
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 68
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: | | I have a question for anyone who is, or has been, affiliated with the Jehovah's Witnesses. Why are it's members prohibited from participating in the political process, such as voting in elections? |
| TBax wrote: | | If you realized the ruler of this world is Satan, that he controls the governments of this world, and that man wasn't meant to rule himself, would voting make a real difference? |
Okay, a question for TBax involving referendums that have been on state ballots in the last few years. There is a referendum on the ballot in a state that says:
should the state constitution be amended to say marriage shall be between a man and a woman
The reason for that amendment is there have been attempts to force the state's to issue marriage licenses to persons of the same sex (i.e. same sex marriage).
Now would it be proper to vote "yes" on that referendum or would doing so be considered involvment in satans kingdom?
Let me be more specific. The voting christian will not be voting for governor, senator or any person running for office. They will vote "only" on that "referendum".
What do you say TBax. Would it be acceptable for a christian to vote "yes" on that referendum? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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rufus,
Nice question.
God tells us what he expects of us. As Christians we practice those very things. It is not our responsibility to force all people to follow God's standards. People have free will and Christians don't try to step on that. We give people the opportunity to learn what God expects of us and to live their lives accordingly. It is their choice if they choose to follow it or not. HOWEVER, with choices there are consequences.
Also, trying to patch up this dying system under Satan's control is not the work of a Christian. It is our obligation to educate others of God's standards, and to tell others about God's kingdom that will crush and put an end to human governments and solve all our problems.
The plain fact that such an issue is under debate shows the hoplessness of trusting humans.
Eph 4:17 This, therefore, I say and bear witness to in [the] Lord, that YOU no longer go on walking just as the nations also walk in the unprofitableness of their minds, 18 while they are in darkness mentally, and alienated from the life that belongs to God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the insensibility of their hearts. 19 Having come to be past all moral sense, they gave themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness.
Yes!! The nations are past all moral sense. What is popular is what becomes acceptable. No wonder God is going to destroy such human governments. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1694
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| *Admin thinking maybe he should have started a knitting forum* |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5049
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Admin, don't know this, but I crochet!
Knitting sounds interesting!  |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Admin,
What does that mean? |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Admin,
What does that mean? |
My take.....
It means that the discussions associated with a knitting forum would be more productive, value wise, than the discussions taking place with-in this forum.
Of which......I agree.
I would just like to add.......the overall discussions here at Bible-Discussion.com are interesting and valuable.
Thank you Admin! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | It means that the discussions associated with a knitting forum would be more productive |
Perhaps. If that comment is about my discussion with you, I would agree wholeheartedly When people shut themselves off from reason it is pointless to speak to them. 
| Dust wrote: | | This whole line of reasoning is irrelevent. |
Yes! Realizing the attitude first century Christians had toward involvment in human government is irrelevent.
However, I still reply because some reasonable people may read it and be able to put it together properly.
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If that comment was about my reply to rufus, I would like clarification from the Admin. |
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