Origin of the issue of separation of church and state

45degreeN

Some people think that this issue is just a constitutional issue brought about by confusion of the founding fathers unclear wording of the first amendment. Well that is far from the truth. It is an issue that goes far back into English religious history to the 14th century at least, and the popular point of view has swung from one extreme to the other over the centuries.

It is all tied up with the issue of English dissent and the English reformation beginning with John Wycliffe (there are various spellings but this is the one which I will use). Along with that is the issue of how the church is organized and who gets to say just what is the truth.

Wycliffe was an Oxford scholar who translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate into what was then a very primitive English language. His views of transubstantiation and the organization of the church were the prototype of what later became the non-conformist.

At this time of course there was not protestant church in England and the Catholic church basically ruled the country. Wycliffe's protest was over the corruption and ignorance that were everywhere present both in the church and outside of it. Almost no one read scripture, including the priests. At the time it was primarily traditions that ruled the church. Wycliffe sought to bring the church back to scripture and like so many reformers since then with the same motive was dealt with harshly.

Even though Wycliffe was able to avoid the executioner, his body was dug up almost forty years later and burned, the ashes scattered in a river.

What became of his followers was a long period of uncontrolled self- directed preaching called Lollardry. Still a long time before the break with Rome that happened with Henry VIII, these itinerant preachers spoke out in market squares and highway meetings. It would be 150 years before the battles between England and Rome would come to a head and the
Anglican church would be formed. These Lollards who literally took their lives in their hand when they preached from scripture risked it all and frequently they met either the gallows or the prison cell.

To make a long story shorter between Henry VIII and King James of which we all know something about (remember the KJV), there was several sea changes in England over who would run the churches that were there. First the Anglican then the Catholics then the Anglicans.

Throughout this period there were still the nonconformist who insisted on having their own rules of church and from these came the Quakers, and what are called the Puritans two of the better known groups. Both of whom would figure prominently in our own American history. But let us leave that history aside for now and get back to England where there is still some history to deal with.

King James Version was authorized in 1611. The next King up was Charles I and it was during his reign that dissenters basically took control of the kingdom, and parliament. That was when the English Civil war took place and Oliver Cromwell took the title of "Lord Protector" instead of the crown. A constitutional form of government was instituted and a commonwealth came into existence, which had greater toleration for differences in theology.

Oliver Cromwell, a puritan, started out his reign with the highest of intentions, he attempted to purify the English from their many pagan traditions that had invaded the church. Which meant that when he started out it was in the most liberal sense and ended up in a military dictatorship.
His reign ended in 1659 and together England gave a big sigh of relief.

Shortly thereafter the act of toleration 1688 became the official policy of England and toleration of the various sects were accepted as long as they were loyal to their country.

Now we come to the American experiment. Every educated person in the American colonies had been brought up learning about the English civil war. They all knew about the how religion had been used to "purify the country" without the consent of the people. They also knew that many of those same people had moved to the colonies and founded their own places of worship and couldn't be expected to just move over and let the government tell them what to do.

Given the bloodshed of nearly two hundred years in England over religion it is no wonder they offered a simple compromise in their constitution. There would be no governmental religion here in America. Not only that but people needed to be free to exercise their own beliefs when practicing whatever it might be. Those places where religion was strong like in New England would be free to let their religion be paramount, those areas like Virginia where religion was more a private affair would be free to do it their own way. In any account religion would still be important to some and not to others and that is why we have our separation of church and state. Free from governmental interference but free to influence government.

Pondering · Lion King Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1247

Good summary...and in general I agree...couple of points, I'll make:

"they offered a simple compromise in their constitution. " The key word there is compromise...it really is the key to western civilization. However, it wasn't simple...but I understand your point.

Here however, I'm concerned by what you mean:

"Free from governmental interference but free to influence government."

What do you mean by the last part? If you mean a private citizen (who holds a particular set of beliefs) then I'm good with that....If you mean as an institution...well then, I take unction.

45degreeN · Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:33 am Post subject:

Given the cited example of religious interference within the history of the British/American system, it seems that that influence has proven disastrous each and every time. While it is true that individual Christians acting on their beliefs have proven good basing government on those same principles is another kettle of fish.

Pondering · Lion King Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1247

ahh...thanks for the response...and to that, I can say "Amen!" Wink

JonMarie · Hamster Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 81 Location: Pa.

The following is the letter in which Thomas Jefferson while addressing the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802
first mentions the (presently misconstrued idea of separation of church and state). It is obvious that Jefferson's intentions indicate that government shall not force a particular brand of religion(a state mandated religion, as existed in England, that resulted in the death of many true christian martyers)but that individuals are free to worship God in a true biblical sense, that esteems God as final authority, and not any man, pope or religious doctrine.
ie: not freedom from religion, but freedom of religion.
when we took prayer out of the public school look what has happened.

FFT · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:19 am Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject:

Pondering · Lion King Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1247

JonMarie · Hamster Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 81 Location: Pa.

THE NEW ENGLAND PRIMER

The New England Primer was a textbook used by students in New England and in other English settlements in North America. It was first printed in Boston in 1690 by Benjamin Harris who had published a similar volume in London. It was used by students into the 19th century. Over five million copies of the book were sold.

In the 1700's schools in the colonies were strongly influenced by religion. It was the intent of the colonists that all children should learn to read and in 1642 Puritan Massachusetts passed a law stating this. They believed that an inability to read was Satan's attempt to keep people from the Scriptures.

The New England Primer followed a tradition of combining the study of the alphabet with Bible reading. It introduced each alphabet letter in a religious phrase and then illustrated the phrase with a woodcut. The primer also contained a catechism of religious questions and answers. Emphasis was placed on fear of sin, God's punishment and the fact that all people would have to face death.

Here are some examples of alphabet rhymes that teach moral values as well as reading.

A In Adam's Fall
We sinned all.
..... Prepared by Mary O'Neill

in 1966 the bible was removed from the public classroom
and teenage pregancy has been in the increase since.

P123, I don't know what statistics you are refering to, if any.

Our country was founded on the principles of the Bible, not the Koran or any other eastern religion.

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject:

JonMarie · Hamster Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 81 Location: Pa.

oh right, excuse me, the teen pregancy rate decreased, and the abortion rate skyrocketed. Need those stats?