WHAT IS SATAN?

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1084

JimD,
Whether you believe in Predestination from a Calvinist or Armenian point of View you must come to the same conclusion. That is, only some are are chosen for heaven. You just can't get away from that theological thought. The difference lies in how that is accomplished. The Calvinist view claims that the elect were saved by the decree of God meaning that God decided who was to go to heaven and who was to go to hell. Their position is that God is soverign and it is totally up to Him. They have a valid point.

The Armenian view holds that God chose the elect based upon foreknowledge and not decree but Ultimately not everyone will be in the Kingdom of heaven. The scriptures makes that clear. So on that score both theological parties are right.

Because I am a little radical in my theology, I cannot subscribe to either. The scriptures makes it clear that God wishes that none would perish and it is also clear that God draws all men unto Him. The Calvinist view cannot fully support that thought with John Calvin's view of election.

Then you have the Armenian who says that everyone has the opportunity and again we have another difficulty. The Armenian has to take the position that they person in question has choice in the matter of election. That also falls short of true Biblical interpretation. You cannot believe of your own free will or it becomes a works theology. So the question is for some, do we have free will?

That is another question not to be addressed now.

What does all this mean? Maybe we aren't suppose to understand that mystery. Maybe satan uses it to divide the Church. I have many friends that Are Calvinists and I have many friends that are Armenian. Should I stop fellowshipping with them because of their position. Absolutely not. They are mere humans like me struggling to reconcile truth.

JimD,
Going back to the original Post. When a person becomes saved in the New Testament, they do receive the Holy Spirit. Peter didn't until Jesus ascended into heaven. There was a reason for that. Stop for a moment and think about the contrast. Peter before and after.
Before Pentecost, Peter was a weakling and a coward. He was controlled by fear and he was an egotist. What happened on the Day of Pentecost? we see Peter standing up with the others followers and he boldly proclaimed the Christ that they persecuted. Here was Peter standing in front of all these people. The same people he ran from when he denied Jesus three times. God wants to fill all of His Children to the fullest so that we can go out in power and claim a lost world for Him.
I am inclined to believe that we are an extension of the grace of God for even Jesus said that we are the light of the world. I like Yehu's stand on the issue of predestination. when we are filled with the Holy Ghost, we have a dynamic influence on peoples lives but when we aren't filled with the Spirit, we are not effecting change in the world. We need to go out in power and claim the lost for Christ.

RevJp and Yehu will both tell you that an intellectual acknowledgment of Christ, doesn't save you. It must be a revelation experience.

JimD,
When we are saved, we are free from sin. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit we are freed from ourselves.

I hope that this helped you to understand a little more about my Theological view.

Keep on seeking.

[/i]

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 634

JB, thank you for sharing your views with me.

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1084

JimD,
From my understanding Original sin isn't mentioned in the scriptures. It is a term that was assigned to the fall of man during a time of serious gnosticism. If we were to look at the sin that Adam and Eve committed, we can quickly see that on the surface, the sin was an act of disobedience. The Lord told them not to eat from the tree. Many people question the validity of this thought because Adam and Eve were created perfect. How could something perfect become imperfect? The truth of the matter is they were perfect but they were finite. They were created with a beginning. That creation created limits in their lives. But if we look at how they fell, we can conclude several things. There was Eve in the Garden. Daily she walked by that tree. I am sure that she looked at it and she may have even wondered why she couldn't eat from it because of her finiteness. One day the serpent comes up to her and talks to her about all the trees. But then he leads her to the forbidden tree. She is told that she won't die but if she eats from the tree she will be just like God having a knowledge of good and evil. She may have ate from it so that she could understand God better or maybe she wanted to be like God. I am not sure. But if you were to look at people today they are 1.) Knowledge mongers and 2.) They are self seeking and many believe that they can achieve eternal life on their own. So both possibilities could apply.

As a result of Eve's poor choice, all of humanity, is now under the dark cloud of sin. Inherited sin seems to be the most logical conclusion.

As far as becoming guilty of sin on our own, we do that daily but by the Grace of God we are forgiven.

I hoped this helped.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 634

JB, it would have been nice if you had made some response to my last last quote on predestination..???
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Do you think the original sin could be the unbelief that preceded Eves disobedience?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1084

JimD,
In the scriptures it is written, He who knows to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin. I interpret that verse as clearly saying that we are only accountable for sin that we are aware of. I believe that an Infant doesn't go to hell if it dies of SIDS. But I do believe that when a child reaches the age of accountability or understanding and they reject Christ, they are condemned.

We become accountable for sin when we recognize it.

As far as Eve's deliberate disobedience, I don't view that as unbelief, I view that as desire out of control. Maybe she didn't believe the consequence but on the other hand maybe she tempted herself by walking by the tree everyday. It is like the alcoholic that thinks that it is OK to sit in the bar. They are flirting with disaster just as I believe that Eve did.

I hope that this helped. You seem to have a good idea of what you believe. Your questions seem to suggest that. I pray that you will always remember to be open to the leading of the Spirit of God as you face the Biblical challenge.

May God bles you and keep you.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 634

JB, do you believe (choosing) to have faith in God is a work?
Do you see any difference between the choosing and the faith?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1084

JimD,
I believe that our choosing is works. Anything that even remotely takes from the glory of God is wrong.

Faith is something that God gives us, not because of anything that we have done. But according to His Mercy He has saved us. Titus 3:5

I understand that you want to be in control and you also desire to humanly understand how that works, but the truth of the matter is, many people are going to perish.
I believe that God showed them the way or He tried, but some how the message didn't make it. The sower and the seed might shed some light.

This isn't an explanation that I can clearly give at this point, but If God reveals it to me you will be the first to know.

God bless you and keep listening for the Rhema of God.

Yehushuan · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:04 am Post subject:

This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 634

Yehushuan · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:10 am Post subject:

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 909

JB said something I have said before. How can something perfect become unperfect. I have heard people say that Adam was immortal and became mortal. LOL. That doesn't even make sense. Something can never be immortal if it could EVER become mortal. But I do believe that to the point that Adam had experience that he was perfect. But he had not yet had all the experience yet. So this tells me that God is not done creating Adam. Then God tells them to stay away from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and yet God put that very same Tree right in the CENTER of the Garden. Obviously, God intended for man to take of its forbidden fruit by thru his own carnality. For God said after all of his creation of the other animals that they were made after their kind but gets to man and makes him after His likeness. So God is creating the God-kind. But God KNOWS Good and Evil so if God is creating the God-kind then at some point that creation would have to know Good and Evil also. So we read:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And there it is. Beginning to look like God had intended for all this to happen doesn't it? - sure does to me. But let's see if there is more to support such a case:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Wow, powerful stuff that settles the question. God created man subject to vanity.

Paul

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1084

Trettep,
Was this post directed at me? I need to know if I should respond to your thoughts on the fall.

Seek truth my friend

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 909

No JB it was directed to the general audience. I mentioned your name because I was building off what you stated as I have said similiar in the past regarding those that claim that Adam was Perfect.

Paul

Yehushuan · Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:20 am Post subject:

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 909

Hey JB, concerning this thread. Satan is that which is a part of all of us. It is the spirit of disobedience that exists within man. Some have tried to tell me that Satan existed in perfection at one time. But if so then the same thing would concern us with Satan as it does with Adam. For example, how can what is perfect become unperfect. If what is perfect can become unperfect then what hope can we have. For Jesus said to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. So Satan is the creature that hurls insults and magnifies self. Satan caters to the man and not man to Satan:

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

So you see man was made subject to vanity. Now if man was made subject to vanity then who made man subject to vanity. Let's look at the verse and see:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Notice whoever it was that made man subject to vanity is the same person that subjects man to hope. Who else is this but God.

Hope this helps you JB.

In love for you, JB, in our Lord's Jesus' Name,

Paul