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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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False, Tbax. Your simply showing two verses that relate to each other but don't mean the same thing. The Spirit is as the scriptures show is distinct. Those verses you quoted don't show His Spirit the same as His power. His Spirit is the enabler of His Power. It is by His Spirit that power exists. It is by means of His Spirit that His "active force" as you call it exists.
So it is by God's finger that He cast out demons - Yes. It is also by His Spirit yes. If I say it is by my mind that I move down the highway. If I say it is by my car that I move down the highway. My car is not my mind. I'm just using my mind to move the car down the highway.
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
Was that false to both questions?
| trettep wrote: | | Those verses you quoted don't show His Spirit the same as His power. |
Do you bother reading the responces?
| trettep wrote: | | Those verses you quoted don't show His Spirit the same as His power. |
That wasn't the question.
God's spirit is likened to God's finger. TRUE OR FALSE?
You say FALSE. However the scriptures show it to be true.
Matt 12:28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Those are parallel accounts, one says "God’s spirit", and the other says "God’s finger" showing the one is the same as the other.  Simply different wording, but the same thing.
You look at it as two different things. In one it is speaking about the mind, in the other it is speaking about the vehicle of delivery of the thought. However, in both scriptures, God's spirit and God's finger are both the vehicle, not the thought. One is likened directly to the other.
 That point aside, what did Jesus recieve here that he proceeds pour out to the disciples?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
What did God give Jesus????????????
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Again, Tbax, yes they are parraelled accounts but they are not saying the same thing. One is saying by the finger of God and the other by the Spirit of God. If I say that the by my hand I build this house and at another time refer to the very same event and say by my spirit I build this house are they referring to the same thing? - no they are not. You want me to believe they are. My spirit was involved to bring forth my power to build the house which is why there would be a parrell account but referring to two different components of the event.
Paul |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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TBAX, maybe you will have to define what you mean by "Active force" as I surely know that the references to the Holy Spirit are not a reference to God's Power. Like the "Trinity", "ACTIVE FORCE" is a term not found in my scriptures. Be thorough in your definition.
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
If you believe "God’s spirit" and "God’s finger" is talking about two different things, explain concisely what the two things are. What is God's Spirit?
What is God's finger?
| trettep wrote: | | maybe you will have to define what you mean by "Active force" |
It is associated with spirit. Spirit basically means "breath or blow". God's active force and holy spirit are exactly the same thing. It is an invisible force capable of producing visible results. The Scriptures themselves unite to show that God’s holy spirit is not a person but is God’s active force by which he accomplishes his purpose and executes his will.
Now please answer the questions.
What did Jesus recieve here that he proceeds pour out to the disciples?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
What did God give Jesus????????????
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Hi T--------
the promise is what He received.The Spirit was already His.
He promised the 12
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
much love---------knuckle |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Hi knuckle,
I appreciate your responce, but that question was intended for trettep. I wasn't asking because I don't know the answer but because it speaks against trettep's stand. And I asked it multiple times because trettep is avoiding it. 
| knuckle wrote: | | the promise is what He received.The Spirit was already His. |
Not according to that scripture in Acts 2, or the verses your quoted.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | trettep,
If you believe "God’s spirit" and "God’s finger" is talking about two different things, explain concisely what the two things are. What is God's Spirit?
What is God's finger?
| trettep wrote: | | maybe you will have to define what you mean by "Active force" |
It is associated with spirit. Spirit basically means "breath or blow". God's active force and holy spirit are exactly the same thing. It is an invisible force capable of producing visible results. The Scriptures themselves unite to show that God’s holy spirit is not a person but is God’s active force by which he accomplishes his purpose and executes his will.
Now please answer the questions.
What did Jesus recieve here that he proceeds pour out to the disciples?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
What did God give Jesus???????????? |
TBAX, I have answered these questions and will continue to do so. The Holy Spirit again is the "BEING" of the FATHER Himself (God). It is HIS DIVINE NATURE. He compares that Spirt to even man's own "BEING"/spirit here:
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Pay attention to the verse. Now back to why the Spirit is translated from a word meaning wind or breath. Take your hand and put it an inch from your mouth and blow. You just created a wind which doesn't seem to mean anything. Keep your hand there and now utter words. You will still feel wind/breath against your hand but now that wind carries something very powerful. It carries knowledge containined in words. Words are breath/wind with meaning. And the Words of God are meaning towards salvation. God provides His Spirit to us in that very manner. He puts it into Words!!!
Jesus said:
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
(READ THIS NEXT PART SEVERAL TIMES UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT IM SAYING):
TBAX, what makes you - well YOU? It is your SPIRIT. Write down everything about you TBAX (minus the physical things) and you have a writing that contains your spirit in words. Give this writing of you to someone else and tell them to emulate YOU by becoming who YOU are in the words that your wrote down about yourself. When that other person emulates you that will have to no longer be somethings they already are if it is contrary to who you are. For example, if your not a liar and you tell someone to emulate you and they see that your not a liar then they are no more a liar because of emulating you.
Did you get that? Know it well and go back and look at all the references to spirit and identify that Spirit is a reference to the nature of the entity or elements of a nature.
Your servant in Christ,
Paul |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Hi T-------------
didn't mean to interrupt but pull out your transliteral and compare John 14:26 and 1 John 2:1 in the Greek.
much love------------knuckle |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
| trettep wrote: | | The Holy Spirit again is the "BEING" of the FATHER Himself (God). |
You are wrong about the holy spirit being the "being" of the Father.
Spirit can have different meanings, but you are limiting it to one. For instance, we are physical creatures, angels are spirit creatures. Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. We have a "spirit" that impells us to action. God's spirit, or holy spirit is not the being of the Father, but what I have told you, His active force. Your understanding is confusing. Jehovah pours His "BEING" on people??????
Num 11:17 And I shall have to come down and speak with you there; and I shall have to take away some of the spirit that is upon you and place it upon them, and they will have to help you in carrying the load of the people that you may not carry it, just you alone.
What did Jesus recieve here that he proceeds pour out to the disciples?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
What did God give Jesus????????????
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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knuckle,
Hi,
I looked up those scriptures in a greek interlinear, but fail to see your point. Is it because the same greek word is used, Parakletos, which means advocate or helper??? What is your point.
John 14:26: Yes, Jehovah send the holy spirit in Jesus' name. Holy spirit still comes from the Father. The holy spirit is not Jesus.
1 John 2:1: Yes, Jesus is our advocate or entreater. Because Jesus provided the sacrifice, and is now our High Priest he applies that sacrifice for our sins.
knuckle, what exactly is your point?
(John 14:26) But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.
(1 John 2:1) My little children, I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one.
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi T-------------
one more time
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
who was with them?who had to leave them?Who was coming to them?
much love----knuckle |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | trettep,
| trettep wrote: | | The Holy Spirit again is the "BEING" of the FATHER Himself (God). |
You are wrong about the holy spirit being the "being" of the Father.
Spirit can have different meanings, but you are limiting it to one. For instance, we are physical creatures, angels are spirit creatures. Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. We have a "spirit" that impells us to action. God's spirit, or holy spirit is not the being of the Father, but what I have told you, His active force. Your understanding is confusing. Jehovah pours His "BEING" on people??????
Num 11:17 And I shall have to come down and speak with you there; and I shall have to take away some of the spirit that is upon you and place it upon them, and they will have to help you in carrying the load of the people that you may not carry it, just you alone.
What did Jesus recieve here that he proceeds pour out to the disciples?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
What did God give Jesus???????????? |
Tbax, you and I are done having our one on one engagement on this topic. I appreciate your time.
Paul |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | Hi T-------------
one more time
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
who was with them?who had to leave them?Who was coming to them?
much love----knuckle |
The Holy Spirit was in Christ. When Jesus rose from the dead the realization set in that this is indeed the Christ. That realization brought to life and thus the Spirit to the disciples.
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
If you are done, that is fine. One final point since you never really answered the question associated with Acts 2:33. Your concept that holy spirit is the "BEING" of God isn't supported in the scriptures. The Father isn't giving His "BEING" to Jesus, and Jesus isn't proceeding to pour out the Father's "BEING" on the disciples.
A "BEING" is what we ARE, and is what God is. Not a possesion we have that we can use and distribute.
i.e. I am a human being. I don't have a being, but AM a being.
God had his spirit on Moses, and took some away to distribute to the 70 others in Num 11:17. It isn't reasonable to believe God is distributing His "BEING" on people.
Take care trettep.
-----------------------
knuckle,
Hi,
Please make your points clearer. It seems to me you are saying Jesus is the holy spirit. Jesus sends God's holy spirit to the disciples. Jesus can come to the disciples by drawing his attention to them and giving them what they need, the holy spirit.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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