Origin of the issue of separation of church and state

45degreeN

Some people think that this issue is just a constitutional issue brought about by confusion of the founding fathers unclear wording of the first amendment. Well that is far from the truth. It is an issue that goes far back into English religious history to the 14th century at least, and the popular point of view has swung from one extreme to the other over the centuries.

It is all tied up with the issue of English dissent and the English reformation beginning with John Wycliffe (there are various spellings but this is the one which I will use). Along with that is the issue of how the church is organized and who gets to say just what is the truth.

Wycliffe was an Oxford scholar who translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate into what was then a very primitive English language. His views of transubstantiation and the organization of the church were the prototype of what later became the non-conformist.

At this time of course there was not protestant church in England and the Catholic church basically ruled the country. Wycliffe's protest was over the corruption and ignorance that were everywhere present both in the church and outside of it. Almost no one read scripture, including the priests. At the time it was primarily traditions that ruled the church. Wycliffe sought to bring the church back to scripture and like so many reformers since then with the same motive was dealt with harshly.

Even though Wycliffe was able to avoid the executioner, his body was dug up almost forty years later and burned, the ashes scattered in a river.

What became of his followers was a long period of uncontrolled self- directed preaching called Lollardry. Still a long time before the break with Rome that happened with Henry VIII, these itinerant preachers spoke out in market squares and highway meetings. It would be 150 years before the battles between England and Rome would come to a head and the
Anglican church would be formed. These Lollards who literally took their lives in their hand when they preached from scripture risked it all and frequently they met either the gallows or the prison cell.

To make a long story shorter between Henry VIII and King James of which we all know something about (remember the KJV), there was several sea changes in England over who would run the churches that were there. First the Anglican then the Catholics then the Anglicans.

Throughout this period there were still the nonconformist who insisted on having their own rules of church and from these came the Quakers, and what are called the Puritans two of the better known groups. Both of whom would figure prominently in our own American history. But let us leave that history aside for now and get back to England where there is still some history to deal with.

King James Version was authorized in 1611. The next King up was Charles I and it was during his reign that dissenters basically took control of the kingdom, and parliament. That was when the English Civil war took place and Oliver Cromwell took the title of "Lord Protector" instead of the crown. A constitutional form of government was instituted and a commonwealth came into existence, which had greater toleration for differences in theology.

Oliver Cromwell, a puritan, started out his reign with the highest of intentions, he attempted to purify the English from their many pagan traditions that had invaded the church. Which meant that when he started out it was in the most liberal sense and ended up in a military dictatorship.
His reign ended in 1659 and together England gave a big sigh of relief.

Shortly thereafter the act of toleration 1688 became the official policy of England and toleration of the various sects were accepted as long as they were loyal to their country.

Now we come to the American experiment. Every educated person in the American colonies had been brought up learning about the English civil war. They all knew about the how religion had been used to "purify the country" without the consent of the people. They also knew that many of those same people had moved to the colonies and founded their own places of worship and couldn't be expected to just move over and let the government tell them what to do.

Given the bloodshed of nearly two hundred years in England over religion it is no wonder they offered a simple compromise in their constitution. There would be no governmental religion here in America. Not only that but people needed to be free to exercise their own beliefs when practicing whatever it might be. Those places where religion was strong like in New England would be free to let their religion be paramount, those areas like Virginia where religion was more a private affair would be free to do it their own way. In any account religion would still be important to some and not to others and that is why we have our separation of church and state. Free from governmental interference but free to influence government.

Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1512

Good summary...and in general I agree...couple of points, I'll make:

"they offered a simple compromise in their constitution. " The key word there is compromise...it really is the key to western civilization. However, it wasn't simple...but I understand your point.

Here however, I'm concerned by what you mean:

"Free from governmental interference but free to influence government."

What do you mean by the last part? If you mean a private citizen (who holds a particular set of beliefs) then I'm good with that....If you mean as an institution...well then, I take unction.
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45degreeN · Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:33 am Post subject:

Given the cited example of religious interference within the history of the British/American system, it seems that that influence has proven disastrous each and every time. While it is true that individual Christians acting on their beliefs have proven good basing government on those same principles is another kettle of fish.

Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1512

ahh...thanks for the response...and to that, I can say "Amen!" Wink

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Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
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JonMarie · Grizzly Bear Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 746 Location: Pa.

The following is the letter in which Thomas Jefferson while addressing the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802
first mentions the (presently misconstrued idea of separation of church and state). It is obvious that Jefferson's intentions indicate that government shall not force a particular brand of religion(a state mandated religion, as existed in England, that resulted in the death of many true christian martyers)but that individuals are free to worship God in a true biblical sense, that esteems God as final authority, and not any man, pope or religious doctrine.
ie: not freedom from religion, but freedom of religion.
when we took prayer out of the public school look what has happened.

FFT · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:19 am Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject:

Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1512

JonMarie · Grizzly Bear Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 746 Location: Pa.

THE NEW ENGLAND PRIMER

The New England Primer was a textbook used by students in New England and in other English settlements in North America. It was first printed in Boston in 1690 by Benjamin Harris who had published a similar volume in London. It was used by students into the 19th century. Over five million copies of the book were sold.

In the 1700's schools in the colonies were strongly influenced by religion. It was the intent of the colonists that all children should learn to read and in 1642 Puritan Massachusetts passed a law stating this. They believed that an inability to read was Satan's attempt to keep people from the Scriptures.

The New England Primer followed a tradition of combining the study of the alphabet with Bible reading. It introduced each alphabet letter in a religious phrase and then illustrated the phrase with a woodcut. The primer also contained a catechism of religious questions and answers. Emphasis was placed on fear of sin, God's punishment and the fact that all people would have to face death.

Here are some examples of alphabet rhymes that teach moral values as well as reading.

A In Adam's Fall
We sinned all.
..... Prepared by Mary O'Neill

in 1966 the bible was removed from the public classroom
and teenage pregancy has been in the increase since.

P123, I don't know what statistics you are refering to, if any.

Our country was founded on the principles of the Bible, not the Koran or any other eastern religion.

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject:

JonMarie · Grizzly Bear Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 746 Location: Pa.

oh right, excuse me, the teen pregancy rate decreased, and the abortion rate skyrocketed. Need those stats?

Ana · Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:14 am Post subject:

JonMarie · Grizzly Bear Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 746 Location: Pa.

Historical abortion statistics, United States

compiled by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 21 January 2008

Definition of table data (see notes after table for additional information):

Live births.
Abortions, reported includes legal reported induced abortions.
Abortions, residents, in country only includes reported abortions obtained within the country by residents only.
Abortions, residents, obtained abroad includes reported abortions by country residents obtained in other countries.
Abortions, residents, total includes reported abortions by residents, obtained both within the country and abroad.
Fetal deaths generally includes fetal deaths or stillbirths of at least 20 weeks` gestation.
Miscarriages generally includes spontaneous fetal losses/ abortions, fetal deaths, or stillbirths, regardless of gestation period.
Abortion ratio is abortions per 1000 live births.
Abortion % is abortions as percentage of pregnancies (excluding fetal deaths/miscarriages).
Abortion rate is abortions per 1000 women ages 15-44.

United States regional level data also available here.

year live births live births, estimated abortions, reported abortions, estimated abortions, residents, in country only abortions, residents, obtained abroad abortions, residents, total abortions, occurrences by non-residents miscarriages fetal deaths abortion ratio abortion % abortion
rate,
residents
residents, in/out of country all in country residents, in/out of country all in country
1909 (2718000)
1910 (2777000)
1911 (2809000)
1912 (2840000)
1913 (2869000)
1914 (2966000)
1915 (2965000)
1916 (2964000)
1917 (2944000)
1918 (2948000)
1919 (2740000)
1920 (2950000)
1921 (3055000)
1922 (2882000) 113600
1923 (2910000) 113200
1924 (2979000) 117100
1925 (2909000) 110800
1926 (2839000) 108200
1927 (2802000) 108700
1928 (2674000) 107500
1929 (2582000) 102000
1930 (2618000) 2 (2) (2) 102600 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
1931 (2506000) 48 (48) (48) 95700 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.00
1932 (2440000) 71 (71) (71) 92200 0.03 0.03 0.00 0.00
1933 2081232 (2307000) 71 (71) (71) 85400 0.03 0.03 0.00 0.00
1934 2167636 (2396000) 71 (71) (71) 86700 0.03 0.03 0.00 0.00
1935 2155105 (2377000) 89 (89) (89) 85100 0.04 0.04 0.00 0.00
1936 2144790 (2355000) 86 (86) (86) 81000 0.04 0.04 0.00 0.00
1937 2203337 (2413000) 86 (86) (86) 80600 0.04 0.04 0.00 0.00
1938 2286962 (2496000) 86 (86) (86) 80100 0.03 0.03 0.00 0.00
1939 2265588 (2466000) 86 (86) (86) 78900 0.03 0.03 0.00 0.00
1940 2360399 (2559000) 71 (71) (71) 80100 0.03 0.03 0.00 0.00
1941 2513427 (2703000) 49 (49) (49) 80800 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.00
1942 2808996 (2989000) 58 (58) (58) 84300 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.00
1943 2934860 (3104000) 697 (697) (697) 82900 0.22 0.22 0.02 0.02 0.02
1944 2794800 (2939000) 706 (706) (706) 79400 0.24 0.24 0.02 0.02 0.02
1945 2735456 (2858000) 704 (704) (704) 76000 0.25 0.25 0.02 0.02 0.02
1946 3288672 (3411000) 819 (819) (819) 87300 0.24 0.24 0.02 0.02 0.02
1947 3699940 (3817000) 749 (749) (749) 90500 0.20 0.20 0.02 0.02 0.02
1948 3535068 (3637000) 16 (16) (16) 85500 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
1949 3559529 (3649000) 675 (675) (675) 83600 0.18 0.18 0.02 0.02 0.02
1950 3554149 (3632000) 7 (7) (7) 83200 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
1951 3750850 (3820000) 679 (679) (679) 86300 0.18 0.18 0.02 0.02 0.02
1952 3846986 (3909000) 551 (551) (551) 86800 0.14 0.14 0.01 0.01 0.02
1953 3902120 (3959000) 490 (490) (490) 87500 0.12 0.12 0.01 0.01 0.01
1954 4017362 (4071000) 440 (440) (440) 93200 0.11 0.11 0.01 0.01 0.01
1955 4047295 (4097000) 328 (328) (328) 93000 0.08 0.08 0.01 0.01 0.01
1956 4163090 (4210000) 337 (337) (337) 93500 0.08 0.08 0.01 0.01 0.01
1957 4254784 (4300000) 336 (336) (336) 93700 0.08 0.08 0.01 0.01 0.01
1958 4203812 (4246000) 345 (345) (345) 93800 0.08 0.08 0.01 0.01 0.01
1959 4244796 (4286000) 357 (357) (357) 93400 0.08 0.08 0.01 0.01 0.01
1960 4257850 292 (292) (292) 94500 0.07 0.07 0.01 0.01 0.01
1961 4268326 292 (292) (292) 0.07 0.07 0.01 0.01 0.01
1962 4167362 292 (292) (292) 0.07 0.07 0.01 0.01 0.01
1963 4098020 390 (390) (390) 0.10 0.10 0.01 0.01 0.13
1964 4027490 823 (823) (823) 0.20 0.20 0.02 0.02 0.23
1965 3760358 794 (794) (794) 0.21 0.21 0.02 0.02 0.18
1966 3606274 1028 (1028) (1028) 0.29 0.29 0.03 0.03 0.15
1967 3520959 2061 (2061) (2061) 0.59 0.59 0.06 0.06 0.22
1968 3501564 4630 3141 3141 0.90 1.3 0.09 0.13 0.24
1969 3600206 23680 15356 1600 15356 4.3 6.6 0.42 0.65 0.57
1970 3731386 193491 46064 1600 46064 127628 12.3 51.9 1.2 4.9 5.0
1971 3555970 485816 201671 187 201671 56.7 136.6 5.4 12.0 11.1
1972 3258411 586760 320058 100 320058 98.2 180.1 8.9 15.3 13.2
1973 3136965 615831 744600 294678 100 294678 93.9 237.4 8.6 19.2 16.3
1974 3159958 780824 898600 715948 100 715948 226.6 284.4 18.5 22.1 19.3
1975 3144198 864682 1034200 795524 100 795524 253.0 328.9 20.2 24.8 21.7
1976 3167788 991555 1179300 935613 105 935613 655000 295.4 372.3 22.8 27.1 24.2
1977 3326632 1079978 1316700 1010924 100 1010924 687000 303.9 395.8 23.3 28.4 26.4
1978 3333279 1158185 1409600 1125593 100 1125593 690000 337.7 422.9 25.2 29.7 27.7
1979 3494398 1252756 1497700 1206862 100 1206862 8210 722000 345.4 428.6 25.7 30.0 28.8
1980 3612258 1297610 1553900 1265907 100 1265907 8720 746000 78879 350.4 430.2 26.0 30.1 29.3
1981 3629238 1300760 1577300 1566230 90 1566230 11110 751000 75901 431.6 434.6 30.1 30.3 29.3
1982 3680537 1303980 1573920 1083252 100 1083252 8890 769000 75095 294.3 427.6 22.7 30.0 28.8
1983 3638933 1268987 1575000 1064352 100 1064352 763000 71379 292.5 432.8 22.6 30.2 28.5
1984 3669141 1333521 1577200 846219 100 846219 773000 69679 230.6 429.9 18.7 30.1 28.1
1985 3760561 1328570 1588600 827895 100 827895 795000 69691 220.2 422.4 18.0 29.7 28.0
1986 3756547 1328113 1574000 864959 87 864959 798000 67863 230.3 419.0 18.7 29.5 27.4
1987 3809394 1354951 1559100 842288 100 842288 815000 67757 221.1 409.3 18.1 29.0 26.9
1988 3909510 1371289 1590800 850923 100 850923 893000 68352 217.7 406.9 17.9 28.9 27.3
1989 4040958 1396658 (1566900) 624645 69 624645 919000 70124 154.6 387.8 13.4 27.9 26.8
1990 4158212 1429688 (1608600) 799389 68 799389 1011000 67696 192.2 386.8 16.1 27.9 27.4
1991 4110907 1389083 1556510 797738 49 797738 1007000 65000 194.1 378.6 16.3 27.5 26.3
1992 4065014 1359437 1528930 774191 36 774191 2028 1002000 63153 190.5 376.1 16.0 27.3 25.7
1993 4000240 1330614 (1495000) 750074 42 750116 2283 993000 55387 187.5 373.7 15.8 27.2 25.0
1994 3952767 1268166 (1423000) 720524 52 720576 2401 989000 182.3 360.0 15.4 26.5 23.7
1995 3899589 1211119 1359400 729749 29 729778 1860 982000 187.1 348.6 15.8 25.8 22.5
1996 3891494 1365700 1360160 743471 22 743493 1239 983000 191.1 349.5 16.0 25.9 22.4
1997 3880894 1186229 (1335000) 905607 19 905626 1336 982000 233.4 344.0 18.9 25.6 21.9
1998 3941553 996372 (1319000) 890668 17 890685 1397 999000 226.0 334.6 18.4 25.1 21.5
1999 3959417 949145 1314800 841063 19 841082 1496 1003000 212.4 332.1 17.5 24.9 21.4
2000 4058814 938972 1312990 826895 29 826924 1278 1029000 13948 203.7 323.5 16.9 24.4 21.3
2001 4025933 941402 (1291000) 832316 35 832351 1637 13704 206.7 320.7 17.1 24.3 20.9
2002 4021726 948712 (1269000) 839735 21 839756 1525 13285 208.8 315.5 17.3 24.0 20.5
2003 4089950 946137 (1250000) 932786 20 932806 1341 228.1 305.6 18.6 23.4 20.2
2004 4112052 934597 1222100 816802* 18 816820 1210 198.6 297.2 16.6 22.9 19.7
2005 4138349 756120* 1206200 654670* 26 654696* 1096 158.2* 291.5 13.7* 22.6 19.4
2006 4265996 517604* 359590* 359590* 84.3* 7.8*
year live births live births, estimated abortions, reported abortions, estimated abortions, residents, in country only abortions, residents, obtained abroad abortions, residents, total abortions, occurrences by non-residents miscarriages fetal deaths abortion ratio abortion % abortion
rate,
residents
residents, in/out of country all in country residents, in/out of country all in country

Notes:

Data for 2004-2006 (*) is incomplete and represents figures compiled from individual state reports.
Parenthetical figures are estimates, some of which are derived from reported data.
Abortion ratios, percentages, and rates may be based on a mix of data from different sources and thus may not represent a consistent time series.

Sources:

Centers for Disease Control, 15 June 2004, "Estimated pregnancy rates for the United States, 1990-2000: An update," National Vital Statistics Reports, 52(23), on line at Centers for Disease Control
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FFT · Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:22 am Post subject:

Copying and pasting the whole thing was pretty unnecessary, you could have just linked to the page.

Of course, the page that lists historical abortion statistics (link) shows that abortion rates have done anything but skyrocket since 1977. The numbers before then are more likely to be completely off due to lack of reporting than actually accurate.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.