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admin
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 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: Questioning God is bad in itself or not? |
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Please forgive my latest run of one-liners. I've been reading a lot of discussions lately where the overall thread doesn't interest me, but I find little "nuggets" that really grab me or get me to thinking.
Here's the latest statement I found interesting, what are your thoughts on this statement:
If you, for one moment question the existence of God then you are in deep spiritual trouble.
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | Please forgive my latest run of one-liners. I've been reading a lot of discussions lately where the overall thread doesn't interest me, but I find little "nuggets" that really grab me or get me to thinking.
Here's the latest statement I found interesting, what are your thoughts on this statement:
If you, for one moment question the existence of God then you are in deep spiritual trouble. |
Xlnt one-liner topics, BA!
Glad you are involved or more so!
Here are 4 of my thoughts:
3 Short answers:
Romans 14:
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:
but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
"Why, then 'tis none to you;
for there is nothing either good or bad
but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison."
Hamlet [III, 2]
Titus 1:
15 Unto the pure all things are pure:.
....
One Longer answer:
God says: Prove all things! - 1Thes 5:21.
This means that God wants us to ask
all the why's and what's and how's and when's and where's and who's and does God exist and etc we want--just like kids ask why! Mt 18:1-3.
In fact, since all words have natural opposites, and as kids we all learned all alphabets IN LOVE so that all letters are LOVE-LETTERS to all kids,
not only do all thoughts also have natural opposites,
but also all words and their opposites are naturally LOVED by kids!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eccles 3:1-8. 1 Corin 14:20.
So?
So it is
as natural to think God does NOT exist
as it is to think God does exist,
and
it is MOST natural
to also LOVE who exists
and
to LOVE who we think does NOT exist!
Therefore, the other real question we are really asking to be answered when we ask if God exists is also:
Do we or shd we
love or hate who does or does not exist?!!!!!!!!!
All religions have misrepresented God by UNNATURALLY HATING who, to them, DOES exist: Satan or the devil or whatever name whoever calls him.
Matthew 5:43-44.
So to haters of satan in religions,
it is OK and must be ok to hate who does exist!!!!! Therefore, having swallowed that first unnatural and abnormal heresy that it is natural and normal to hate who does exist, they must make heretical what is as UNheretical & natural & normal as can be: any question of God's existence!
This makes no sense: to make heretical what is natural & normal, and to make natural & normal what is heretical.
Therefore, when and AFTER people, who got indoctrinated with this unnatural idea that it is OK to hate whoever or whatever they want, and who began to think that it was natural to HATE any words or thoughts, when and after these people ALSO BEGAN to naturally question or doubt the existence of God or to conclude that God does NOT exist, they mis-THOUGHT that what Hate was un-natural, WAS now NATURAL to use against who they naturally thought did NOT exist!!!!!!!!!!!!
This makes doubly NO sense:
to hate who or what we think does NOT exist: is a waste of energy---when we also love all those other things that we KNOW do NOT exist:
mickey mouse and the road runner and hamlet and snow white and alice and harry and robin hood and sinbad and superman and batman and Captain America and etc!smile
So BA, what that writer really meant is:
If you, for one moment question the existence of God IN HATE OF GOD or IN HATE OF WHO DOES not EXIST OR IN HATE WHO does EXIST,
then you WERE ALREADY IN DEEP SPIRITUAL TROUBLE BEFORE YOU EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT QUESTION AND NOW are in deep spiritual trouble AGAIN!
But if you, for and at all moments question the existence of God in Love of who does NOT exist and in Love for all who do exist, then you are already in deep spiritual peace and safety and solution!
Once again, TJ to the rescue:
Letter to
Jefferson's letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787 over 220 years ago:
"4. Religion.
Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object.
In the first place, divest yourself of
all bias in favor of novelty & singularity of opinion.
[This divestiture implies that it must be for all words and therefore for all thoughts and all subjects, AND therefore we must INVEST LOVE for all words and etc!]
Indulge them [all that bias!] in any other subject rather than that of religion. [TJ's one BIG mistake.]
It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious.
On the other hand, shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, [but at least TJ is sticking to this one right idea] under which weak minds are servilely crouched.
Fix reason firmly in her seat,
and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion.
[ I thess 5:21. 2 Corin 13:5]
Question with boldness even the existence of a God;
because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. [1 John 4:18.]
You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country.
Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy & Tacitus.
The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor, in one scale,
and
their not being against the laws of nature, does not weigh against them.
But [in the other scale]those facts in the Bible which contradict [are opposite to] the laws of nature,
must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces.
Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from God.
Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he relates.
For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood still several hours.
Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, &c.
But it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired.
The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it.
On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary [how opposite] it is to the law of nature that
a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped,
should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees, buildings,
and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution,
& that without a second general prostration.
Is this arrest of the earth's motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities?
You will next read the New Testament.
It is the history of a personage called Jesus.
Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions:
1,
of those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended & reversed the laws of nature at will, & ascended bodily into heaven;
and
2,
of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth,
of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind,
who set out without pretensions to divinity,
ended in believing them,
and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, & the second by exile, or death in fureâ.
See this law in the Digest Lib. 48. tit. 19. §. 28. 3. & Lipsius Lib 2. de cruce. cap. 2.
These questions are examined in the books I have mentioned under the head of religion, & several others. They will assist you in your inquiries,
but keep your reason firmly on the watch in reading them all.
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by *any* fear of its consequences. [1 John 4:18]
If it ends in a belief that there is no God,
you will find incitements to virtue
in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise,
and
[in]the Love of others which it will procure [?] you.
If you find reason to believe there is a God,
a consciousness that you are acting under his eye,
& that he approves you,
will be a vast additional incitement;
if that there be a future state,
the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it;
if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love.
In fine,
I repeat,
you must lay aside *all prejudice* on both [opposite] sides,
and
neither believe nor reject anything,
because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it.
Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable,
not for the rightness,
but
[for] uprightness of the decision.
I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists.
Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics.
Most of these are lost.
There are some, however, still extant, collected by Fabricius, which I will endeavor to get & send you."
Letter to
Jefferson's letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787 over 220 years ago.
This is also quoted on page 64 in RD's book, as you would have already recognised!smile
Hope that frees you up even more to just believe in Love, which I know you already believe in,
and in that Love to NOT believe in God IF you have NOT proved his existence and so naturally believe he does NOT exist.
With the Bias & Prejudice of Love for all opposite words,
which unconditional Love automatically
rejects and lays aside
all of the Bias & Prejudice of Hate for any words in all subjects at all times,
and encourages all questions,
and puts
all answers in questions
and
all questions in answers,
atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night
Last edited by atoz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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admin
Beloved Admin
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Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks AtoZ, good stuff to think about. Can I just say I'm glad you don't write for the Dictionary.
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | Thanks AtoZ, good stuff to think about. Can I just say I'm glad you don't write for the Dictionary.
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atoz: Heya, me too! lol
They wd never allow me to definitively write:
Nutshell, noun, prison----- a la shakespeare!smile
Weak, adjective, strong--- a la 2 cor 12:10!smile
In the Unlimited Diction of Love for all dictions and for all dict-at-ionaries, smile
atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Admin, the way you pull out nuggets is always helpful. By the way, that is how I read atoz's posts. I just take a piece of the stream of consciousness and riff on it. 
The quote:
| Quote: | If you, for one moment question the existence of God then you are in deep spiritual trouble.
|
is false in my opinion, and has been recognized as false particularly by some of the medieval mystics such as John of the Cross. The experience of doubt and also the inability to pray to God was interpreted by John of the Cross as a period of two-fold purification that is necessary--not harmful--for moving forward on the path to God, the first part being purification of the senses and the second being purification of the spirit.
I would not interpret this too literally. But the traditional path has been from purification to illumination, from illumination to union from union to purification again. If this picture is even a little bit true, then the path that moves us to God can also move us through periods of doubt and anxiety.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Over on a sister board, someone who says he's a pastor in real life said Christianity is all about questioning the existence of God. This is pretty much the opposite of today's little nugget...
I will be watching this thread with particular interest. 
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, and skimming through atoz' post, I decided I like this:
| atoz wrote: |
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by *any* fear of its consequences. [1 John 4:18]
If it ends in a belief that there is no God,
you will find incitements to virtue
in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise,
and
[in]the Love of others which it will procure [?] you.
If you find reason to believe there is a God,
a consciousness that you are acting under his eye,
& that he approves you,
will be a vast additional incitement;
if that there be a future state,
the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it;
if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love.
In fine,
I repeat,
you must lay aside *all prejudice* on both [opposite] sides,
and
neither believe nor reject anything,
because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it. |
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: |
.....The quote:
| Quote: | If you, for one moment question the existence of God then you are in deep spiritual trouble.
|
is false in my opinion, and has been recognized as false particularly by some of the medieval mystics such as John of the Cross. The experience of doubt[atoz' bold] and also the inability to pray to God was interpreted by John of the Cross as a period of two-fold purification that is necessary--not harmful--for moving forward on the path to God, the first part being purification of the senses and the second being purification of the spirit.
.... |
Plo!
Here is some ter-riff-ic [!]support from none other than ALT:
"There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me,
than in half the creeds."
Alfred Lord Tennyson
By the way, the purification of the spirit comes first, since it takes that purity of spirit to purify all the words and all the senses, which senses are also words.smile
In the Melody of the Harmonics of the Universal Constant of the Pattern of Love that is simply a ter-rif-ic repeated refrain to riff on, smile
atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night
Last edited by atoz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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The bible says that we should not lean on our own understanding, which encourages us to even doubt our own thoughts.
And when we reach out beyond ourselves we begin to doubt others and everything. That's why also the bible say to prove all things.
It's natural to doubt, it's natural to question.
I remember my daughter around the age of 3...
why? why mommy? how come? but WHY?..LOL
We all start out with questions..
And I think doubting is healthy. It makes us stretch and exercise our beliefs. It makes us stronger in the long run.
You can't learn anything new if you already have all the answers..LOL..
And learning new things is what lifes all about.
It's awesome!
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
even the best of us goes through times of doubt:
Job 9:16 If I had called, and he had answered me; [yet] would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
and here's a nugget:
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
hmm...
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Whether we believe or whether we doubt really has no bearing on who we are truly as individuals.
I've known proffessing christians that show no godly attributes whatsoever, and I've known atheists that are more godly than christians.
Ye shall know them by their fruit..not the words of their mouth.. 
it's not the outward appearance of a person that tells us whether they are led by a Godly spirit, but rather the heart of the person that walks in it.
So if I say I doubt God exists and yet I walk according to the principles of a loving lifestyle, then my mouth has lied.
If I say without a doubt I believe in God and walk contrary or in a hateful hurting lifestyle, then again my mouth has lied.
It's what's in your heart that counts.
In my opinion, spiritual trouble is when your heart has gone absolutely cold and can find no love in it.
IMHO..
hugs
lone |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
.....It's natural to doubt, it's natural to question.
I remember my daughter around the age of 3...
why? why mommy? how come? but WHY?..LOL
We all start out with questions..
And I think doubting is healthy. It makes us stretch and exercise our beliefs. It makes us stronger in the long run.
....
.....
Whether we believe or whether we doubt really has no bearing on who we are truly as individuals.
.....
So if I say I doubt God exists and yet I walk according to the principles of a loving lifestyle, then my mouth has lied.
If I say without a doubt I believe in God and walk contrary or in a hateful hurting lifestyle, then again my mouth has lied.
It's what's in your heart that counts.
In my opinion, spiritual trouble is when your heart has gone absolutely cold and can find no love in it.
IMHO..
hugs
lone |
Awesome, LT!
"Good madam, stay awhile. I will be faithful. [Reads.]
'Doubt thou the stars are fire;
Doubt that the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love."
To love myself as certain and uncertain
is
to be certain in my doubt
and
to be doubly certain in my certainty. 2 Cor 12:10.
To love myself as certain and to hate myself as doubltful
is
still to be doubtful in my certainty
and
to be doubly doubtful in my doubt! Luke 9:60.
In Doubtless Love for the undoubtable and the doubtful,
atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks atoz and lone for excellent comments. So far, I haven't heard much disagreement on this point.
Is there anyone out there willing to defend the principle that doubt has no place in religion? If not .................
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: | | ....Is there anyone out there willing to defend the principle that doubt has no place in religion? If not ................. |
And Plo, doubt having a place in religion proves that religion is not and can not be based on faith!
Re-ligion is based on the Love that religaments the already-ligamented interdefinability & interconvertiblity of all words and their opposites!
Yes!smile
I am just getting carried away again!smile
sigh
Am I excused?smile
with the Love by which Love
faith and the word 'faith'
AND
doubt and the word 'doubt' work, Galatians 5:6,
atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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What about verses such as John 20:29 or Deu 6:16?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | What about verses such as John 20:29 or Deu 6:16? |
Those who believe without seeing are precisely those who believe in the Love which loves sight seen and loves sight unseen.
Thomas' problem was that he hated what he had not seen or not proved or not tried: so in effect he tried to test God with Hate which is what is tempting God. So Thomas was still in disbelief in his belief, and was in double disbelief and in double doubt when he disbelieved and when he doubted.
To tempt is to test with Hate.
To test is to tempt with Love.
With the belief in Love
that leads
to Love in belief, and
to Love in disbelief, and
to Love in seeing, and
to Love in not seeing, and
to belief in disbelieving and
to double belief in believing
Atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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