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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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 Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | The message was preached to actual Jews first, and then to actual Gentiles. |
That is true. Jesus preached to the Jews, and the disciples preached to the Jews until 36 C.E. when the Gentiles became part of the Israel of God.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 9:6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.”
Rom 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
James was written around 62 C.E. well after the gentiles became part of the Israel of God, the seed of Abraham. 
| Dust wrote: | | James is not putting a prohibition on government involvment. |
Do you understand how Bible principles work? They effect your entire life!
James 4:4 Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.
That would include getting involved in things in this world where it is clear Satan is ruler. Your reasonings, like usual, are in error.  Satan does have controll over the governments of this world. It is so clear. Yet you want to remain blind to the facts once again. 
Matt 4:8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”
If they weren't Satan's to give, that would not have been a temptation!!!
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.
Do you get it? Jesus didn't deny this. In fact, Jesus said:
John 14:30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,
Does he have a hold on you????????????????????????
P.S. Does your haughtiness make it impossible for you to admit when you are wrong? Especially regarding your blatant lie?  |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | James was written around 62 C.E. well after the gentiles became part of the Israel of God, the seed of Abraham. |
I would agree the book of James (as inspired by the Holy Spirit) has actual application to the body-of-Christ, but it is the actuality of the actual twelve tribes of Israel being spread abroad (beginning with the downfall of the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom), that embodies the essential and/or salient characteristics of exactly what James is addressing.....
The 12 tribes of Israel were the only tribes on earth to whom God had entrusted His oracles. In the land God had given them, and amongst all their blessings from God, these twelve tribes turned from the values (cultural values and such) God had established. The result was they were conquered and carried off to other lands just as God had previously warned. While in these other lands they were warned not to worship other gods. They were not to allow the ways/values of other peoples/nations/cultures to water-down/corrupt the things/values God had given them....but rather they were to be the salt of the earth, bringing flavor to the lands/cultures to which they had been dispersed.
And so it is with Christians the world over.
Now if an ever-growing group of Christians resides in a country with corrupt values, and are afforded the opportunity to change things with a vote (and do so), that is not particiption in the ways of the world, but rather quite to the contrary. Infact this would be a prime example of works arising from faith.
Thus the JW prohibition on voting is not a biblical concept, in fact, quite to the contrary.
| TBax wrote: | | That would include getting involved in things in this world where it is clear Satan is ruler. |
Satan may be ruler of the world, but he is not ruler of God's-children/the-body-of-Christ, UNLESS, perhaps, we do not resist him (resist the devil and he will flee). Many Christians use their vote in an effort raise the values of God above the established values of the world (take the abortion issue for instance). This is not getting involved in things of the world....this is resisting the ways of the world.
Once again....James is not calling for a prohibition against government involvment. In fact his letter makes reference to church administration/policy NOT national govenment administration/policy.
Let me revisit something I mentioned above....
'Resist the devil and he will flee'
The JW prohibition on voting offers ZERO resistance. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
Your ramblings are silly. You can justify your involvment in the world all you want. Fact is Satan has a hold on you, and your lies and justifications to be part of this world prove that. You are also blind and totally miss the point of scriptures. Another indication Satan has a hold on you.
2 Cor 4:4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.
Picking rulers is the Devils job in this system of things. If you want to work in tandem with him that is your choice. As for me, I will be no part of this world.
John 17:15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
GOD's KINGDOM is what will effect real change as it destroys human governments. That kingdom is what you should be focusing your life on instead of pointlessly trying to patch up a dying condemned system. If you were on the Titannic and you knew it was going down would you stick around to polish the brass???  Would you campaign for another man to be captian??? Yes, the brass would look shiny, or the new captian may have a few good thoughts, but it is still going down and will be destroyed. That is, in effect, what you are proposing. Such efforts are vain!!!!!
| Dust wrote: | | 'Resist the devil and he will flee' |
That is true in our personal lives. Working with him to install rulers in a dying system is not fleeing from him. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Dust,
Your ramblings are silly. You can justify your involvment in the world all you want. |
I am not justifing anything other than a Christian's right to vote.
I have demonstrated that James 4:4 is not prohibiting voting in elections. James 4:4 is talking about how the world condones certain attitudes and practices, that a Christian should not partake in. The particular activity is not the focus of the book of James, but rather the focus is on the values that one brings to whatever activity or circumstance one finds themselves in. To overwhelmingly prove this point, James cites a case of Christians showing favor to a rich man over that of a poor man according to world standards. This circumstance is taking place at CHURCH.
TBax you cited James 4:4 as justification of the JW prohibition on voting, yet James does not give a circumstance in which a rich man is given favor over a poor man at a voting station nor does he cite any specific example dealing with government, yet some how you interpret James as banning grovernment involvement. Shouldn't you be banning church involvement?
Ridiculous!
All that you have written in this thread comes out of your own head and/or is derived from JW doctrine.
Not a single biblical passage you've presented supports a ban or a prohibition on government involvement, much less voting. Not a single passage!
The principles that James points to in his rich-man/poor-man CHURCH example, in fact, the principles of his entire letter, are to be applied to all circumstances whether church related, government related, socially related, or whatever. Can you not see that?
I've supported my position biblically. There is not one element of my position you can disprove biblically, or otherwise, because what I preach is not made up in my mind, and is not derived from some outside non-biblical doctrine/source.
| TBax wrote: | | GOD's KINGDOM is what will effect real change as it destroys human governments. |
And where is God's Kingdom, TBax? Where?
Luke 17:20-21
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
Change from conforming to WORLD STANDARDS, in whatever circumstance, whether it be the grovernance of a nation, or the gathering together for worship, will occur when our eyes are truey opened.
Revelation 15:4
Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
Please TBax, if you must respond, respond with something substantial and significate, otherwise swallow your pride, concede the point, and move on.
You need not rant about me, or cite biblical passages that have nothing to do with your position.
If you are able to demonstrate a point, then demonstrate it clearly. Do not attempt to con me.
btw, a nation without some form of governance is a non-rational notion. It makes absolutly NO SENSE. It makes no sense, because it is not feasible! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | I am not justifing anything other than a Christian's right to vote.
...
Shouldn't you be banning church involvement?
Ridiculous! |
Yes, Ridiculous ramblings indeed! Do you know the difference between "church and state"??? You are mixing scripture up with the Constitution.
You do realize the Constitution isn't scripture, don't you???
| Dust wrote: | | All that you have written in this thread comes out of your own head and/or is derived from JW doctrine. |
I am the one citing scriptures and you are ignoring them and rambling with your own ideas.
So it is my idea that Satan has control over who gets installed in this system of things?
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.
Do you get it? Jesus didn't deny this. In fact, Jesus said:
John 14:30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,
However, Satan does have a hold on you as you cannot see or get the sense of these scriptures.
| Dust wrote: | | I've supported my position biblically. |
Truly delusional.
| Dust wrote: | | And where is God's Kingdom, TBax? Where? |
Right now it is ruling in heaven and is about to destroy Satan's system of things.
(Daniel 2:44) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
| Dust wrote: | Luke 17:20-21
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." |
(Luke 17:20-21) But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, 21 neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in YOUR midst.”
Jesus, as king of that kingdom, was before them!
| Dust wrote: | | Change from conforming to WORLD STANDARDS, in whatever circumstance, whether it be the grovernance of a nation, or the gathering together for worship, will occur when our eyes are truey opened. |
What did you just say???
James 4:4 Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.
| Dust wrote: | Revelation 15:4
Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
Please TBax, if you must respond, respond with something substantial and significate, otherwise swallow your pride, concede the point, and move on. |
Concede the point.
You have said nothing worth while.
Rev 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
Rev 19:17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”
19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.
The wild beast represents human governments, and is thrown into the lake of fire.
Regarding Rev 15:4, JW's are in all nations. That scripture is fulfilled fully when the following is a reality:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Yes. When God's kingdom destroys human governments and stands in their place will all nations truly worship Jehovah, the only true God.
| Dust wrote: | | btw, a nation without some form of governance is a non-rational notion. |
No one here has suggested that.
| Dust wrote: | | It makes absolutly NO SENSE. It makes no sense, because it is not feasible! |
True.
Try to pay attention to what is actually being said, and perhaps you won't miss every point made, or argue points that weren't said. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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TBax, I've archived your last post. It contains startling clairity on how an individual and/or organization uses scripture while adding additional meaning through a personal/independent interpretation.
Scripture is not a matter of personal/independent interpretation.
It is improper to read scripture, add your personal/organizational thoughts (independent interpretation), and then arrive at a meaning.
Not a single scripture you've cited prohibits government, government involvement, or voting.
Again, if you must respond, do not even mension me, but rather give scripture that either specifically prohibits voting, or presents a clear scriptural logical deduction that bans Christians from government involvement and/or voting.
Let me clairify further, as if James did not clairify it enough......The World System is not the government of individual nations, just as it is not the government/administration of individual churchs, though James does use a church setting as an example of acting in accordance with the world system of things.
I concede that the world-system can creep into government. Government members/officials can be friends with the world. The world-system can creep into church. Church members/officials can be friends with the world, as illustrated in the book of James.
I once again highlight for you, the example of the rich-man being given favor over that of the poor-man in a church setting. James example has NOTHING to do with national government!
The World System is an underlying factor in all we do.
Dust wrote:
btw, a nation without some form of governance is a non-rational notion. | TBax wrote: | | No one here has suggested that. |
Sorry to make your head explode, but when you advocate no government involvement, your are indeed suggesting government is not necessary, which of course is a non-rational notion. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | but when you advocate no government involvement, your are indeed suggesting government is not necessary |
How is that a logical conclusion? The government I endorse is God's kingdom. That kingdom will crush and put an end to human governments and all of Satan's system, so why would I try to fix the "sinking ship"? The one God will make sink! You jump to wrong conclusions often. And your unwillingness to be reasonable is your downfall.
You ramble and do your little speeches, but you don't say anything worthwhile. Not only that, but you started this conversation with a made up lie as to why JW's don't vote or get involved in politics. You are a liar and a deciever. You don't even try to improve once you have been exposed.
| Dust wrote: | | TBax, I've archived your last post. |
Good. Now maybe you can try to read it and understand what was said. 
| Dust wrote: | | Not a single scripture you've cited prohibits government, government involvement, or voting. |
I am not trying to prohibit government. Those scriptures show the human governments will be destroyed by God. You couldn't get that point??? Can you comprehend this scripture?
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.
Can you comprehend this scripture?
John 17:15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
| Dust wrote: | | I've supported my position biblically. |
You do realize the Constitution isn't scripture, don't you???
| Dust wrote: | | Again, if you must respond, do not even mension me, |
Why? I am talking to you. You are closing your eyes and pretending you are making sense.  You are not saying anything of substance. What am I suppose to address, if not your lack of understanding? I provided scriptures, you ignor them, and you provide nothing but your rambling speeches. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Dust wrote:
but when you advocate no government involvement, your are indeed suggesting government is not necessary
| TBax wrote: | | How is that a logical conclusion? The government I endorse is God's kingdom. |
So logically an endorsement of God's future kingdom is grounds for anarchy until then? Wrong. The Bible does not endorse the absence of, or the establishment of, authority. Nor does the Bible prohibit Christians from taking part in the establishment of order, rather quite to the contrary.
TBax, you have established a pattern of defying sound reason in-order to maintain and/or defend your JW beliefs. It is not rational to suggest that James is indicating Christians are not to vote, as you, and apparently JW doctrine suggest.
James makes it absolutely clear he is not talking about national governments, as his example, based on a church setting, so indisputably indicates. James is not calling for Christians to avoid establishing rule, whether it be in the administration of church and/or state. He is specifically talking about establishing values that are to be applied in ALL situations. He tells us what values to avoid in ALL our involvements!
You've misapplied the scriptures, which has led to an incorrect direction in your life (no government involvement, not voting and such). Because you read something into the scripture that is not there, you believe you are, not just correct, but biblically correct, which apparently empowers you to set aside all reason that would suggest you are wrong.
TBax, even if you are unable to apply, to yourself, what I have just said in the last paragraph, you should be able to see the terrible misdirection that such a situation would cause.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seems right to a man and appears straight before him, but at the end of it is the way of death.
fyi - I have no problem with folks who choose not to vote for their own personal, and perhaps even legitimate, reasons. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | So logically an endorsement of God's future kingdom is grounds for anarchy until then? |
Nobody said that. You are arguing another point that isn't at issue.
| Dust wrote: | | The Bible does not endorse the absence of, or the establishment of, authority. |
True. We are subject to these superior authorities, unless they expect us to go against God's word, until God's kingdom destroys them. Just because we are subject to them doesn't mean we participate in them.
James provided a Bible principle that we need to follow. That principle applies to all elements of Satan's world that will be destroyed by God, that will recieve God's judgement. This principle is not limited, but applies to all aspects of Satan's world.
James 4:4 Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.
Spiritual adultery is not trusting in God or his word, but instead getting involved in false worship or turning to the nations for support instead of God. Ancient Israel was guilty of these. Instead of trusting in Jehovah they made alliances with other nations to assist them, thus committed adultery.
Realizing who is in control of these governments should have an impact on you, yet it doesn't seem to.
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.
If you want to be a friend of the world and get involved in worldly things, that is up to you.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seems right to a man and appears straight before him, but at the end of it is the way of death.
Indeed!!!!!!!! Why do you deny scripture to follow your own thoughts. Again, I am the one providing scripture, you are ignoring them and rambling with your own thoughts. It may appear upright before you to do so, yet, at the end of it is the way of death.
Please pay attention.
John 18:36 Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
God's kingdom is not part of this world, human governments are!!!!!! Jesus made it pretty clear.  We are to seek God's kingdom and not get involved in Satan's buisness.
| Dust wrote: | | I've supported my position biblically. |
You haven't shown scriptures that would apply to this subject. On the other hand, I have. You are blind to them. 
You do realize the Constitution isn't scripture, don't you??? |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | You haven't shown scriptures that would apply to this subject. On the other hand, I have. You are blind to them. |
Well, you're right, I have not found anything biblically that would support the JW prohibition on voting. Whereas you have shown that it is through private interpretation that JW's prohibit voting. Case in point......
| Quote: | rufus wrote:
Why do Jehovah's Witnesses Prohibit Voting in Elections? |
| Quote: | lone-traveler wrote:
could we get back to the topic please? |
| Quote: | TBax responded:
If we must get back on topic:
James 4:4 Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God. |
It can only be by private interpretation, more pointedly, by JW interpretation that James 4:4 provides the answer to the subject question.
Now listen.....I do believe you answered the topic question correctly....James 4:4 is the reason why JW's prohibit voting in elections. But as the Book of James illustrates, James himself is not prohibiting voting in elections. It's ONLY by private interpretation, and not by what James intended, that Jamess 4:4 could be construed to mean that JW's are not to vote in elections.
| TBax wrote: | Realizing who is in control of these governments should have an impact on you, yet it doesn't seem to.
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. |
I can see the benefits of men like Joseph and Moses , who, for a time, had a place with-in the government of Egypt, yet were strong men of God, holding positions with-in government. Obviously such is not biblically unprecedented.
Let's take a quick look at luke 4:5.......TBax, pull-out your lexicon, and take a look at the Greek word for 'kingdom' as it appears in Luke 4:5. I think you will find it illuminating to see that actual countries/kingdoms, such as the USA for instance, is not what is intended by the Greek word for 'kingdom'.
Take care.......pray hard, study hard. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
You cannot seem to understand the meaning of a principle. James 4:4 shows the principle Christians must follow. The following shows why.
Can you comprehend this scripture?
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.
Can you comprehend this scripture?
John 17:15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
If you want to be a friend of the world, or if you don't want to believe the governments are part of this world, that is up to you. I see them as clearly part of this world. Part of Satan's system that will be destroyed. You cannot deny that as that is scriptural. As such, I don't get involved as Jesus said.
| Dust wrote: | | Let's take a quick look at luke 4:5.......TBax, pull-out your lexicon, and take a look at the Greek word for 'kingdom' as it appears in Luke 4:5. I think you will find it illuminating to see that actual countries/kingdoms, such as the USA for instance, is not what is intended by the Greek word for 'kingdom'. |
(Luke 4:5) So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time;
kingdom-ORIGINAL WORD-basileiđa:TRANSLITERATED WORD-Basileia
DEFINITION-1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
Thank you for motivating more research to solidify my point. It makes the points stand out even more.
Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Dust,
You cannot seem to understand the meaning of a principle. |
Yes I do understand. I've reiterated it over and over again in this discussion. You are finally coming around to a proper understanding of it. In fact due to what you have learned in this discussion, I doubt you will ever again answer the topic question of this thread by simply quoting James 4:4 as you previously did here.
| TBax wrote: | | Thank you for motivating more research to solidify my point. It makes the points stand out even more. |
Oh really. Your point being that JW's are biblically prohibited to vote.....I don't think so....infact I know so. James 4:4 does not prohibit anyone from voting, nor does Luke 4:6, nor does any other biblilcal passage, infact, principly speaking, quite to the contrary.
Once again I highlight the principle of Matthew 5:13, which, btw, works hand in hand with the principle of James 4:4, Luke 4:6, along with the rest of the Bible, specifically, as I previously highlighted, the passages talking about Joseph's and Moses' involvement in the satan ran Egyptian government. Now, pull all these biblical elements and principles together, and you will understand why Christians, outside your cult, vote.
Please do not carry-on with anymore irrational cultish devotion. Be devoted to God, have faith in His power and His word. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
You really should try to pay attention. You responces are unintelligable now.
| Dust wrote: | | You are finally coming around to a proper understanding of it. |
What??????
You keep saying things like this when nothing I said changed.
| Dust wrote: | | I doubt you will ever again answer the topic question of this thread by simply quoting James 4:4 as you previously did here. |
Well, I could to reasonable people.
| Dust wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Thank you for motivating more research to solidify my point. It makes the points stand out even more. |
Oh really. Your point being that JW's are biblically prohibited to vote.....I don't think so....infact I know so. James 4:4 does not prohibit anyone from voting, nor does Luke 4:6, nor does any other biblilcal passage, infact, principly speaking, quite to the contrary.
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My responce was about the word kingdom. Do try to pay attention. I know you like to take word out of context, but that is dishonest. 
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ONLY VALID POINT you made that needs addressed:
Regarding Joseph or Moses, they weren't Christians, were they? Different time, different circumstances. God permitted these occurances for the sake of preserving the messianic line, and the promise to Abraham.
Check to see if the first century Christians held political office or even joined the military.
| Quote: | In his book History of Christianity, Edward Gibbon wrote that first-century Christians “refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire,” and that “it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”
...
“There was a conviction widely held among Christians that none of their number should hold office under the state . . . As late as the beginning of the third century Hippolytus said that historic Christian custom required a civic magistrate to resign his office as a condition of joining the Church.” |
Could that be true?
| Quote: | | Professor Robert L. Wilken writes: “Christians not only refused [Roman] military service but they would not accept public office nor assume any responsibility for the governing of the cities.” (The Christians as the Romans Saw Them) Refusal could mean being branded lawbreakers or being condemned to the Roman arena. |
Hmmmm. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Check to see if the first century Christians held political office or even joined the military. |
As if the records are extensive enough and reliable enough to establish this one way or the other.
Regardless, you said it yourself......
"Different time, different circumstances."
Ecclesiastes 3
A Time for Everything
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven: |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
What has changed. TRUE Christianity hasn't changed. They followed the same principles we are to follow. We are suppose to be Christians just like in the first century. The first century Christians realized they needed to be seperate from the world, and so do true Christians today. Circumstances today are, Satan installs the rulers he wants in human governments, and human governments are going to be destroyed by God.
If anything changed it is the greater sense of urgency to avoid being involved in this world.
If you do not want to follow the example of the first century Christians, that is up to you. The fact is they realized the need to be seperate from the world, which included government involvment, and so do JWs today. |
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