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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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My community while I was growing up was religious, and that's why I too was religious. When my family moved, the new community wasn't overtly religious - in fact, for the most part I have no idea what religion, if any, my neighbours are, or have been, ever since I moved to this city. There are plenty of churches here, so I know people go to them, but which neighbour goes to which is knowledge that has thus far evaded me. I don't particularly care what they are, either, as long as they don't try to push their religion on me.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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The anecdotal evidence speaks a story somewhat different than the 'statistics' and the pseudo-science being offered.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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The anecdotal evidence speaks a story somewhat different than the 'statistics' and the pseudo-science being offered.
I personally was a military child. I've lived all over the world for most of my life, in many places where 'christianity' wasn't the norm. My mom was a Baptist who did not attend church much (due to living conditions I'd wager) until I was much older. My dad simply had no need or desire for church or religion. By all accounts I should at most be agnostic.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6114
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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It's quite easy for anecdotal evidence to be different from statistics or what is expected.
The house always wins, but I've heard plenty of success stories from casinos. Does that mean the statistics are wrong? Well, no.
The exceptions to a statistic are what makes it a statistic.
I was a military child as well (though mostly I lived on bases in the States). My mother's side of the family is Episcopal and goes to church and I honestly don't know much about my father's and father's side of the family's beliefs beyond that they don't go to church much (we're not on the best of terms, there's that atheist stereotype). And yet I'm not agnostic either.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1753
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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My family has been Lutheran for at least 4 generations. I was raised Lutheran and went to a Lutheran college. Then spent almost 20 years in Religious Science. Then Christian again and recommitted my life to Christ. Now? Frankly what I've been reading from the atheists lately makes a lot more sense to me than everything else. So right now I'd say I'm in the atheist boat.
Don't know where that fits into the stats.
Is there such thing as a Christian Atheist?
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JB
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 758
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Admin
In the last days there will be a great shaking of the tree and many will fall away. Don't abandon your faith because there are things that you don't understand. We don't want to lose you to this world. I will pray fro you and I hope that you will also pray that God moves in your heart in a mighty way.
God bless you my friend |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | The anecdotal evidence speaks a story somewhat different than the 'statistics' and the pseudo-science being offered. |
RevJP, it's pretty silly that you're trying to argue this. Religion really is distributed geographically, and the latitude and longitude of where someone is born is an EXTREMELY good predictor of what their religion will be.
It doesn't matter that you're an exception. There are like a billion Hindus and another billion Muslims and another Billion Christians which are not exceptions.
We can take three values, the latitude, longitude of where someone was born, as well as the date, and based solely on those values we can predict with very good probability what that person's religion is / was. This is true of the vast majority of people. This shows that most people really don't 'choose' their religion in any way.
In fact, it shows the blatant absurdity of religion. That the function f(latitude, longitude, date of birth) is so accurate in predicting what someone's religion will be (and therefore which God is the 'right' God, which morals are the 'right' morals, and what the best means of salvation are) is a pretty strong indictment against religion.
"I was born at X,Y on date D, and therefore it must be true that there is no God but God and Mohammed is his Prophet, and furthermore Z must be his true successor."
vs.
"I was born at A,B on date C, and therefore it must be true that there is no God but God and Mohammed is his Prophet, and furthermore W must be his true successor."
or
"I was born at X,Y on date D, and therefore Jesus died on the cross for me, and it is heretical to worship saints."
vs.
"I was born at A,B on date C, and therefore Jesus died on the cross for me, but it is heretical NOT to worship saints."
It's all pretty silly. The truth of the underlying nature of the universe is completely independent of your time and place of birth, but religion would have us believe otherwise.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | My family has been Lutheran for at least 4 generations. I was raised Lutheran and went to a Lutheran college. |
Hey, I'm Lutheran too! Or at least, that's what it says on my birth certificate!
| admin wrote: |
Then spent almost 20 years in Religious Science. |
Is this the same asChristian Science?
| admin wrote: |
Then Christian again and recommitted my life to Christ. Now? Frankly what I've been reading from the atheists lately makes a lot more sense to me than everything else. So right now I'd say I'm in the atheist boat.
Don't know where that fits into the stats.
Is there such thing as a Christian Atheist? |
Sure. One could argue that most (all?) of the atheists here (myself included) are Christian atheists. Despite our atheistic and secular views, our morality and way of interacting and treating others is more or less the standard 'Western' way of thinking and interacting, and is therefore strongly colored by Christianity.
I for one don't see any problem with this, since there's a whole lot of Good stuff in the Bible. It's pretty hard to argue against many of Jesus' teachings, for example. Many of them are *really* good.
This is where Christian fundamentalists really confuse me. They seem to think that if someone can find one little error in the Bible, then you have to throw the whole thing out. For example, the Book of Genesis falsely says that the Earth is older than the stars, and therefore the entire divine origin of the Bible is in question and Golden Rule isn't a good moral guideline anymore. This is why they fight tooth and nail to insist that the Bible is perfect and inerrant.
It just doesn't make sense to me. The "all in" approach to accepting or rejecting a large set of ideas is silly. You can easily reject the bad things in the Bible (eg. slavery) and the false things in the Bible (eg. the Earth being the center of the universe) without rejecting the good stuff. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, as the old saying goes.
In any case, one could argue that this mode of thinking makes me a 'Christian atheist'.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pete
Growing Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 883
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I was born into the Lutheran Church and was a deacon in same, probably before you guys were born. Lutherans are a stubborn lot, and their beliefs are basically Catholic, except they don't acknowledge the pope.
Interestingly, they follow the same Athanasian Creed as Catholics except they have changed the opening statement from "Catholic" to "catholic" with a lower case "c" to include themselves as a part of the "universal" church instead of the "Catholic" Roman Church. What a difference one letter can make to some folks. Others have changed the entire word from "Catholic" to "Christian".
Apparently, this gets folks saved outside of the Roman Church. I suppose other Protestant churches think the same way. So you'd better get your spelling right if you want to get saved, and not suffer excruciating pain in hell for all eternity, and that's a long time for not knowing how to spell.
Are we still talking good news? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7702
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | I was born into the Lutheran Church and was a deacon in same, probably before you guys were born. |
Well, I'm still in my 20s, so you could be right!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| P123... wrote: | | RevJP, it's pretty silly that you're trying to argue this. |
man, why are you so antagonistic? I wasn't arguing anything. I simply illuminated the fact that the anecdotal evidence did not conform to the statistics you presented. 
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| P123... wrote: | | We can take three values, the latitude, longitude of where someone was born, as well as the date, and based solely on those values we can predict with very good probability what that person's religion is / was. This is true of the vast majority of people. This shows that most people really don't 'choose' their religion in any way. |
SHOW ME.
Where is the chart? The study? The PROOF?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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I was born in Boston, Ma. in 1965. My Father is a Protostant, My Mother was a Catholic..
what am I??..LOL..
Hey P123,
You wrote:
| Quote: | | This is where Christian fundamentalists really confuse me. They seem to think that if someone can find one little error in the Bible, then you have to throw the whole thing out. For example, the Book of Genesis falsely says that the Earth is older than the stars, and therefore the entire divine origin of the Bible is in question and Golden Rule isn't a good moral guideline anymore. This is why they fight tooth and nail to insist that the Bible is perfect and inerrant. |
If you look at the story of Joseph and how he had a dream, that the sun and moon and stars would all bow down in obesience to him..ok..
Now Jacob said..You think I (sun) and your mother (moon) and your brethren (stars) are going to bow down to you?
Which came first..the Sun or the stars..ok..we know Dad comes before the kids right?..
Now the earth is refered to as who? Adam..
Adam is the earth..the earth was created before the stars.
The stars refer to the 12 Patriachs of Jacob..
so the Earth/Adam came before the Stars/those that would bring light to the world..
Of course you might get confused if you read a spiritual book materialisticaly..that's to be expected.
So in order to understand the bible you have to "see past" the material world and venture in to the spiritual world..
anywhoo that's how I understand how the earth was created before the stars..
Not according to the material world, but according to the spiritual world...
If the Golden Rule is used as and for a good moral/spiritual guideline..why shouldn't the entire bible be used as such?
Who said it had to be proven as a material/physical guideline?
just food for thought..
hugs
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Pete
Growing Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 883
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | P123... wrote: | | RevJP, it's pretty silly that you're trying to argue this. |
man, why are you so antagonistic? I wasn't arguing anything. I simply illuminated the fact that the anecdotal evidence did not conform to the statistics you presented. :roll: |
Hey JP, P1 is going for a doctorate in logic. The whole idea of logic is to argue. On the other hand, I argue simply because I am a stubborn old man. My wife will gladly verify that. |
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Pete
Growing Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 883
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | I was born in Boston, Ma. in 1965. My Father is a Protostant, My Mother was a Catholic..
what am I??..LOL..
lone |
Lone, you are obviously an Irish Catholic that has voted all your life for the Kennedy clan, full of beans and today you are wearing a green derby with a pint of green beer in your hand while watching a bunch of little girls doing a jig. |
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