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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658
Location: Salem Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wow you certainly slice and dice things finely, and you seem far more certain than you ought to be about things you really cannot know that certainly.
I reject the idea that there is no trinity presented in scripture and offered plenty of verses as proof so this whole debate is moot in my mind.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2076
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi, 
| Trettep wrote: | Scriptures make a distinction between POWER and SPIRIT.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. |
That scripture is contrasting physical might or power with the ability of God's spirit. God's spirit does indeed include might and power!!! 
Zech 4:6 Accordingly he answered and said to me: “This is the word of Jehovah to Ze·rub´ba·bel, saying, ‘“Not by a military force, nor by power, but by my spirit,” Jehovah of armies has said.
| trettep wrote: | | It is rightly a pronoun because it is referring to a PERONALITY which is that of God the Father in Heaven. |
What???
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Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Wow you certainly slice and dice things finely, and you seem far more certain than you ought to be about things you really cannot know that certainly.
I reject the idea that there is no trinity presented in scripture and offered plenty of verses as proof so this whole debate is moot in my mind. |
You can reject it all you want 45degreeN. But the facts are the scriptures don't support an asserction. Even God's Spirit itself is compared to the spirit in man and yet we have not extra person in us.
If I seem certain it is because I am certain. I'm completely sure of what I'm telling you concerning this topic without any doubt. I have studied it immensely to the extent that no only do I know how to identify those with the Spirit but also how one precisely receives and how it is delivered and other operational characteristics of the Spirit. I can tell you because of this knowledge where the Ark of the Covenant is and who the two witnesses are and much more things. But that means nothing to someone that is already entrenched in their beliefs they are no different than the Jews of Jesus day who were to entrenched in their spiritual knowledge to ever consider that Jesus might ACTUALLY be the Messiah. So you can reject it all you want but is that really a wise then to do without really looking into what I'm saying? I asked before if you believe God is Holy and God is Spirit and if you think God is the Holy Spirit. Am I using faulty logic here to make such a comparison? - I don't think so. Can you explain how Jesus's words ARE Spirit? I can.
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2076
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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45degreeN,
Hi,
| 45degreeN wrote: | | you seem far more certain than you ought to be about things you really cannot know that certainly. |
The fact that the trinity wasn't believed by Christendom until well after the Bible was completed indicates the identity of God is not a trinity. God revealed who He was in the Bible, and that hasn't changed. The word trinity, nor the explicit concept is found in the Bible. The Jews were unitarians, believing God is one person. The first century Christians were unitarians. That explicit concept is found in the Bible. Forth century "Christendom" became trinitarians.
(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
Shouldn't you be certain about what you believe? 
Even the group that developed this trinity realizes the concept wasn't understood by God's people who lived during Bible times, who based their beliefs on the scriptures.
| Quote: | The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296. |
Seeing as how the first century Christians didn't believe a trinity, why do you?
1 Cor 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
That would have been the perfect time to show the world a trinity, if it were true. They didn't believe it!!! Why do you???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
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God Spirit is compared to that in man:
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
What is that verse saying? - it is saying that what we hold in knowledge we know. And what God holds in knowledge He knows.
In other words if I have secrets or knowledge that I don't want to share then only my spirit can know them. That spirit is not another person at all. It isn't my power - it is simply my "being". This is likewise with God. Only God's Spirit (Holy Spirit) can search out His ways.
Notice the verse before:
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Notice that God isn't referring to power or ANOTHER person but instead is referring to His "person" or being.
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2076
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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The spirit of a man is the dominant thinking and feelings of a man. It motivates him to do things.
Like a man has a hand which he can use to do things, God's spirit is God's active force, a possession of God, that He uses to do things. Whatever He wishes. He pours it out, gives it to whomever He wishes. It inspired the Bible writters. He used it to create.
Gen 1:2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force (Spirit of God) was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.
God's spirit is likened to God's finger.
Matt 12:28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
God's holy spirit is likened to God's fingers or hand.
Ps 8: 3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,
The moon and the stars that you have prepared,
Ps 19:1 The heavens are declaring the glory of God;
And of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.
God's holy spirit is God's active force, which God gave to Jesus, and in turn Jesus gives to us.
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
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Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | The spirit of a man is the dominant thinking and feelings of a man. It motivates him to do things.
Like a man has a hand which he can use to do things, God's spirit is God's active force, a possession of God, that He uses to do things. Whatever He wishes. He pours it out, gives it to whomever He wishes. It inspired the Bible writters. He used it to create.
Gen 1:2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force (Spirit of God) was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.
God's spirit is likened to God's finger.
Matt 12:28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
God's holy spirit is likened to God's fingers or hand.
Ps 8: 3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,
The moon and the stars that you have prepared,
Ps 19:1 The heavens are declaring the glory of God;
And of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.
God's holy spirit is God's active force, which God gave to Jesus, and in turn Jesus gives to us.
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
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You really blaspheming (devalue - to hold cheap) the Holy Spirit there TBAX. I know you don't mean to but that is what is indeed what you preaching here. Your putting forward a misrepresentation and cheap understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. Again, God makes a distinction in scripture as the difference between His Power and His Spirit. Again, I quoted scriptures that show the spirit is what knows the thoughts of a man. It isn't man's power that knows the thoughts of a man. What your preaching here is not in accordance with scripture.
TBAX if you give a trial of my reasoning towards what the Holy Spirit is for a week I'm confident you will abadon the idea that the Holy Spirit IS God's Power. Furthermore, I'm confident you will thank God that thru me He brought that wonderful news to you. Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are LIFE. You have to understand that. You have to understand HOW that can be so.
I'm not being arrogant but confident in what this knowledge means. I'm confident in His Word and desire for others to know it also.
Paul |
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Dust
Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 941
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Great post trettep!
The Mormons are far more upfront, as it were, about adding additional thoughts to God's word, with their Book of Mormon and all, than the JW's. The JW's tend to be a bit more sly (however their writing of the NWT is in the same catagory as the Book of Mormon). Basically when private interpretations are put-forth in a sort of religious authoritive manner, and are added to what scripture actually says, a twisted form of scripture is what the adherents end up with. These "religions" synthesize the truth of the word, with a particular accepted private interpretation, and thus end up with a product, or a view that is different than that which is actually communicated through scripture alone. As is obvious this sort of thing can be very deceiving for many.
Additionally, no matter how clear the unadulterated truth may be presented (even to the point of opening eyes), these religions have developed stop-gap elements, making it difficult for their adherents to back-out, even when reason shows their views/doctrines to be incorrect.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | Great post trettep!
The Mormons are far more upfront, as it were, about adding additional thoughts to God's word, with their Book of Mormon and all, than the JW's. The JW's tend to be a bit more sly (however their writing of the NWT is in the same catagory as the Book of Mormon). Basically when private interpretations are put-forth in a sort of religious authoritive manner, and are added to what scripture actually says, a twisted form of scripture is what the adherents end up with. These "religions" synthesize the truth of the word, with a particular accepted private interpretation, and thus end up with a product, or a view that is different than that which is actually communicated through scripture alone. As is obvious this sort of thing can be very deceiving for many.
Additionally, no matter how clear the unadulterated truth may be presented (even to the point of opening eyes), these religions have developed stop-gap elements, making it difficult for their adherents to back-out, even when reason shows their views/doctrines to be incorrect. |
Dust, I am not making any accusations that the Mormons or the JW's are purposely being deceptive in their teachings. In fact, I believe that many that enter the doors of their dwellings are probably in great adoration for what they perceive as being the Truth. Many of the doctrines I have heard from them are NOT the TRUTH (at least according to my perception). Now, I'm not saying that my perception is any different than others but that I have been given more knowledge than many to draw different conclusions. I have listened and even invited JW's into my home to tell me of their beliefs and even had a Kingdom Hall ministers into my kitchen table to discuss such beliefs. These are all my future brothers and sisters in Christ and I have an obligation to love them all no matter how different our current perspectives are.
Your servant in Christ,
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2076
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
| trettep wrote: | | Again, God makes a distinction in scripture as the difference between His Power and His Spirit |
If you would have comprehended the responce you could have understood your misunderstanding. God wasn't, in Zech 4:6, contrasting HIS spirit with HIS power. He was contrasting the physical with the spiritual.
| trettep wrote: | | Again, I quoted scriptures that show the spirit is what knows the thoughts of a man. It isn't man's power that knows the thoughts of a man. |
Spirit can mean many different things. The spirit of a man is not holy spirit!!!
The spirit of a man, in this instance is his impelling mental inclination. The basic sense of a force that moves and gives “drive” or “thrust” to one’s actions and speech.
Holy spirit is not the same as the spirit of men.
| trettep wrote: | | I'm not being arrogant but confident in what this knowledge means. I'm confident in His Word and desire for others to know it also. |
Then why didn't you properly respond? Passing judgement and saying you are sure about what you believe isn't a legitimate responce to the points made. Anyone can do that. After all, even Dust does that all the time. 
You passed a judgement, yet couldn't respond to the scriptures. I am not sure about your beliefs, however I think you believe God is the Holy Spirit. Is that true? You were asking 45degreeN if God was HOLY, and if God was SPIRIT. If that is what you believe your teachings are misleading. That logic is misleading. 
Instead of just passing judgment, try to actually respond this time.
God's spirit is likened to God's finger. TRUE OR FALSE?
Matt 12:28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
God's holy spirit is God's active force, which God gave to Jesus, and in turn Jesus gives to us. TRUE OR FALSE?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
Do you disagree with these scriptures and what they show???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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The Nicean convention was not to establish for the first time which formula of the trinity was to be used but to make a single acceptable formula out of the many that were circulating throughout the middle East since long before Christ. Old Testament scholars debated this issue and held differing opinions since David's time.
To consider someone out of the orthodoxy merely for holding some trinitarian argument or even a non-trinitarian against our own is to cast good people out of communion for no legitimate reason. I consider all honest debaters of this issue fellow Christians.
Whenever dogma reigns supreme rather than honest differences, the whole fellowship loses cohesion and fails to live up to its potential. We all lose in this scenario.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Tbax, your belief that the Spirit is God's active force makes no sense in my scriptures. For example:
Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Here is talks about the Power OF the Spirit. So if we used your reasoning that the Spirit IS Power this would be read as the "..POWER OF THE POWER." That makes no sense, Tbax.
Answer this one:
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
Again if we use your reasoning it would mean "...Power and of power"
Tbax, I'm sure you can find scriptures that seem to support your idea that God's Spirit equals God's power. But we are not to live on PART of God's Word but on EVERY WORD of God. And when we look at the WHOLE of God's Word we find CONTRADICTION to the idea that God's Spirit is a reference directly to His Power.
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2076
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
I understand your conundrum, and it is partly my fault. "Power"" is a vague term. I did say "it was power that comes from God". More accurately, it is God's active force that can do anything God wishes. It can infuse power, it can inspire like it did the Bible writters, it was used in creation, it was used in Jesus' and others miracles of healings and resurrections.
Holy Spirit, in Jesus' case, included power to heal.
Mark 5:30 Immediately, also, Jesus recognized in himself that power had gone out of him, and he turned about in the crowd and began to say: “Who touched my outer garments?”
It was holy spirit that healed that woman.
To be more accurate, holy spirit is a powerful force that comes from God that can accomplish anything it is sent for.
Acts 1:8 but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”
Now, you answer these scriptures.
God's spirit is likened to God's finger. TRUE OR FALSE?
Matt 12:28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
God's holy spirit is God's active force, which God gave to Jesus, and in turn Jesus gives to us. TRUE OR FALSE?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
Do you disagree with these scriptures and what they show???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Tbax, whatever God has man has a likeness of.
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2076
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
| TBax wrote: | | Like a man has a hand which he can use to do things, God's spirit is God's active force, a possession of God, that He uses to do things. |
| trettep wrote: | | Tbax, whatever God has man has a likeness of. |
Yes. That is nice. However to limit God to mans abilities is in error. Now please answer the questions.
God's spirit is likened to God's finger. TRUE OR FALSE?
Matt 12:28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
God's holy spirit is God's active force, which God gave to Jesus, and in turn Jesus gives to us. TRUE OR FALSE?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
Do you disagree with these scriptures and what they show???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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