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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 609
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Do you guys feel like Christianity is mainly about the couple of hrs. we spend in "church" each wk., or the other 166 hrs.? Do you think preachers and teachers do a good job pointing this out, or do they spend more time building up the 2 hr. part?
If the 166 hrs. are the most important, why are we not emphasizing it more? What are some practical ways of doing this? How do you live your daily life that puts what you are learning into practice? Do we spend more time on this forum each day than we do loving those right in our face that are hurting? In other words, are we worshiping God the other 166 hrs. also?
Is this the "church" we are all searching for?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 992
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to me that the whole concept of church has changed drastically in just the last 50 years (Yeah, I've been around a long time)., and I think most of it is due to the tremendous increase in mobility, and at the same time, urbanization of this country.
We used to have a neighborhood society where folks pretty much spent most of their lives confined to an area of a few block with local merchants, and everyone knew everyone. Then Walmart came along and screwed that up. Today, we have to get in a car and drive for miles to get anything done, and eveyone is so busy running around that we don't even know our neighbors on the street.
Of course, the other thing is the information and communication age. We don't have to leave our houses anymore to know whats going on in the world, or to talk to folks on the other side of the country.
Here I am at midnight on this computer and talking to folks any where in the world, and the information that is available on this contraption is mind boggling.
I would think that young folks are less prone to church than older folks, simply because they've had so many nutty influences aimed in their direction all their lives that they don't know anything else.
In any event, Christ's true church is a one-on-one relationship with him. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: |
...
However, having the convenience to "shop around" for a church.........seems a little........what's the word I'm looking for............selfish? to me.
Constant complaints-
I didn't like the music,
didn't like the pastor's wife..........
I didn't like... whatever....
It's a little troubling. Are we going to church to worship God, or worship us?
See what I mean? |
XI!
I see that you must mean
'self-hatish' for 'selfish.'
When I hate myself as certain words, I can't help but only go to a church to worship a God made in my image--the images of the words I love myself as--which is when I will run into all the other words and images of God that I hate: Satan and all the other people!
See 1 John 4:20. Mt 25:35-45.
Make sense?
If I hate blacks, I must conclude that the church I attend is NOT God's church or is the wrong church or is satan's church or is not the church for me when I run into blacks at that church.
So it is only by loving myself as all words that I eliminate the selfhatishness that leads me to hate others and that I can go to all churches or stay at one or stay home.
With the Love that loves all words and so all images and so all people and so all churches and so all music and so all pastors and their families and so one God made up of all words and images and people and churches and music and etc,
Atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | atoz wrote: |
99.9% of churches and pastors out there try to make their members feel obligated to stay due to that thing about tithing!
with the EIOU of 100% Love and the optional IOU of 10% tithes,
atoz |
Really? You think that's what keeps people there?
I would think the opposite is true -
That people hate the tithing message, and leave because they feel pressured. |
Some leave because of it. They're the smart ones. But others, like me, really take what the preacher says to heart, want to really do what we're taught, want to really be faithful, and end up jumping through all the hoops that many churches make people jump through, not just tithing, and realize much too late that we've been had. That whole time, God wasn't requiring all that stuff. Some man or ministry was just trying to control us.
| eleven wrote: | Another big reason I think people leave their churches is because the clergy are unapproachable.
People are getting tired of being talked at, and would rather be talked with........if that's a proper term. |
That's a good point. I believe that's true. And beyond that, I think the illusion that people in ministry have perpetuated for generations, that they are somehow better and closer to God than the rest of us, is coming down. People aren't fooled by that anymore. They know people in ministry are ordinary folks like the rest of us, and are put off by those in ministry who still want to act like they're some higher class of saints.
| JimD wrote: | | Do you guys feel like Christianity is mainly about the couple of hrs. we spend in "church" each wk., or the other 166 hrs.? Do you think preachers and teachers do a good job pointing this out, or do they spend more time building up the 2 hr. part? |
Most preachers I've heard point this out. They say some of the very things you said in your post, Jim. It's about your day to day life.
But I get pretty put off when some of these same preachers walk up to the pulpot and say "Isn't it great to be in the house of God this morning?!!" I always cringe and think "I am the house of God! Every morning! " Shouldn't this guy, claiming to be a spiritual leader, know better?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | eleven wrote: | | atoz wrote: |
99.9% of churches and pastors out there try to make their members feel obligated to stay due to that thing about tithing!
with the EIOU of 100% Love and the optional IOU of 10% tithes,
atoz |
Really? You think that's what keeps people there?
I would think the opposite is true -
That people hate the tithing message, and leave because they feel pressured. |
Some leave because of it. They're the smart ones. But others, like me, really take what the preacher says to heart, want to really do what we're taught, want to really be faithful, and end up jumping through all the hoops that many churches make people jump through, not just tithing, and realize much too late that we've been had. That whole time, God wasn't requiring all that stuff. Some man or ministry was just trying to control us.
| eleven wrote: | Another big reason I think people leave their churches is because the clergy are unapproachable.
People are getting tired of being talked at, and would rather be talked with........if that's a proper term. |
That's a good point. I believe that's true. And beyond that, I think the illusion that people in ministry have perpetuated for generations, that they are somehow better and closer to God than the rest of us, is coming down. People aren't fooled by that anymore. They know people in ministry are ordinary folks like the rest of us, and are put off by those in ministry who still want to act like they're some higher class of saints.
| JimD wrote: | | Do you guys feel like Christianity is mainly about the couple of hrs. we spend in "church" each wk., or the other 166 hrs.? Do you think preachers and teachers do a good job pointing this out, or do they spend more time building up the 2 hr. part? |
Most preachers I've heard point this out. They say some of the very things you said in your post, Jim. It's about your day to day life.
But I get pretty put off when some of these same preachers walk up to the pulpot and say "Isn't it great to be in the house of God this morning?!!" I always cringe and think "I am the house of God! Every morning! " Shouldn't this guy, claiming to be a spiritual leader, know better? |
ELEVEN,
I meant that pastors keep members there by making members feel obligated for other reasons:
God led you here;
you are married to this ministry;
u are covenanted to this church;
just attending without joining is spiritual shacking up and fornication;
leaving is adulterous;
and not paying tithes is stealing from and robbing God, and of course God hates thieves and we shd hate them too --- when tithing was and is the only real reason!
ZATHRUS: I was like you in one church for 19 years because I was a true believer: bought it all hook line and sinker-- and I blame me primarily: because if I had not had my own agenda: wanting to be sooo right due to Hate of myself as wrong: I wd have never checked my brain at the door and in effect allowed myself to be suckered by the preacher who also had the same agenda but focused on another word: Hate of himself as poor!
At most churches still, you are all the rage BEFORE you join:talk to the pastor anytime! AFTER you join, u have to make an appointment to see him thru you care-pastor and you STILL can't see him!--all the while taking your money!
JIMD: Due to the above reasons, most pastors must and still overemphasize those 2 hours over the 166. They don't want tv xtians neither! Church attendance is it!
All should be taught:
we do not go to church to find GOD, but we find God in order to stay home or go to church-- so that when we run into satan at church, it's no big deal!-- and so that when any preacher is saying,
'pay tithes to be blessed,' we are saying,
'we are blessed to pay tithes,
and we are 100% loving in heart to be blessed!-- so we only pay tithes when we can afford to but we always pay 100% Love at all times whether we tithe or not!'
And that to hate nontithers is to be the biggest thief: stealing Love while nontithers are stealing money!
Luke 18:9-14 and Rom 13:8.
With Love in me and so God in me and so church and temple and mosque in me 24x7x52,
Atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: | | ZATHRUS: I was like you in one church for 19 years because I was a true believer: bought it all hook line and sinker-- and I blame me primarily: because if I had not had my own agenda: wanting to be sooo right due to Hate of myself as wrong: I wd have never checked my brain at the door and in effect allowed myself to be suckered ... |
atoz, though many years were lost in both your life and mine, I thank God for delivering us from that hate of ourselves as wrong or in my case the fear of being unfaithful or unfruitful for the kingdom, and allowing us to now enjoy life without that hate, and without fear, for there is no fear in love.
And I thank God that many others are being set free, and that is one reason for the changes in Christianity and how we attend worship meetings that we're seeing today.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 609
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American citizens put on expensive clothes, and load themselves into nice vehicles and drive past homeless shelters, orphanages, prisons, missions, halfway houses and very needy neighbors, on their way to a very expensive and nice church, where somebody tells them how to be more like Jesus. |
A quote I picked up somewhere, that seems appropriate.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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It is man's basic nature to get around God's requirements.
Most people are looking for ways to claim faith in God, while rejecting what God says to do.
The Bible has made the claim that that is what will happen, just before Jesus Christ comes again.
Because even Jesus said: 'Will there be faith in the earth when I come" ?
The answer was there there would probably VERY little faith at that time.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | It is man's basic nature to get around God's requirements.
Most people are looking for ways to claim faith in God, while rejecting what God says to do. |
It sure must be nice to have all the answers.
Yup, it all boils down to "People are leaving the old churches they used to go to cuz they don't wanna do it God's way".
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | atoz wrote: | | ZATHRUS: I was like you in one church for 19 years because I was a true believer: bought it all hook line and sinker-- and I blame me primarily: because if I had not had my own agenda: wanting to be sooo right due to Hate of myself as wrong: I wd have never checked my brain at the door and in effect allowed myself to be suckered ... |
atoz, though many years were lost in both your life and mine, I thank God for delivering us from that hate of ourselves as wrong or in my case the fear of being unfaithful or unfruitful for the kingdom, and allowing us to now enjoy life without that hate, and without fear, for there is no fear in love.
And I thank God that many others are being set free, and that is one reason for the changes in Christianity and how we attend worship meetings that we're seeing today. |
Z!
Thank you!
My sentiments exactly!
I actually do thank God for that experience since I now also have the street cred along with Love to help others stay in in Love or leave in Love.
It's amazing: same story, diffferent names and details only---for all.
with all Love,
a to Z, smile
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Atoz said (to Zathrus): | Quote: | | I was like you in one church for 19 years because I was a true believer: bought it all hook line and sinker-- and I blame me primarily: because if I had not had my own agenda: wanting to be sooo right due to Hate of myself as wrong: I wd have never checked my brain at the door and in effect allowed myself to be suckered by the preacher who also had the same agenda but focused on another word: Hate of himself as poor! |
I read the bible a lot on my own. I study with friends once a week. I also go to church once a week.
Tithe is a big thing in our church. I give what I decide to give. It's not what the church thinks I should give. I give to Missions or Youth Group usually. It's not where the church thinks my money should go. Outside church, I give to friends, neighbors, community and beyond and consider it a part of my giving to God as the bible has inspired me to be more charitable and to be a cheerful giver. I was baptized a Christian in another church. That church did not make tithing a condition of baptism. I feel like it is in the church I am now attending.
The Pastor has let me know that he has me in his sites recently and I am feeling like I'm ready to bolt because I'm starting to feel like a cornered animal. I feel like the church sees us as potential tithers. I'm just there to learn and to associate for a very brief time each week with others who believe in God. A big reason I will probably stick it out is because I love my daughter and she loves what she is learning in church and I love to learn too so I am still going for her and for the sermons.
Luv   
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | The Pastor has let me know that he has me in his sites recently and I am feeling like I'm ready to bolt because I'm starting to feel like a cornered animal. I feel like the church sees us as potential tithers. |
That pastor has you in his sights as a potential tither, you mean? Or to get more involved in some ministry there?
I know that feeling, wanting to bolt but feeling pressured to comply with the wishes of your spiritual leadership. It comes from being made to feel like you should shoulder some responsibility, but it's not anything God has spoken to you about. It feels like man is controlling you. It's one thing if what the pastor apprached you about is something God had also put on your heart. But from what you say, it's something you don't want, and it makes you feel confined, cornered. Don't let anyone make you feel pressured. God wants you to be free, not restricted.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 987
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | I read the bible a lot on my own. I study with friends once a week. I also go to church once a week.
Tithe is a big thing in our church. I give what I decide to give. It's not what the church thinks I should give. I give to Missions or Youth Group usually. It's not where the church thinks my money should go. Outside church, I give to friends, neighbors, community and beyond and consider it a part of my giving to God as the bible has inspired me to be more charitable and to be a cheerful giver. I was baptized a Christian in another church. That church did not make tithing a condition of baptism. I feel like it is in the church I am now attending.
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Well said luv. Some of these problems might go away if the community divides up responsibilities more. For example, there is no reason why the pastor and others with special responsibility for the spiritual life of the community have to have access to information about donations. This can be put in the hands of a treasurer who has no spiritual responsibilities. Donations through the treasurer could then be confidential. If there is a lack of money for certain activities, the treasurer can remind everyone of this and make a general call for donations to everybody. That way people can donate according to their own conscience.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
Just use that corner as your corner on the market of Love from which to educate the pastor as to the truth about tithing if and when he corners you!smile
Pastor, do you know that we don't tithe to be blessed but we are blessed to tithe?!
And how are we blessed, may I ask?
We are blessed by the Blessing of 100% Love
to tithe 10% money with 100%
Love,
and in Love to pay 100% Love even when we are not blessed to tithe or are blessed to not tithe--so we can show others how to not tithe: still tithing 100% Love!
With Love,
Atoz
_________________
"The person who discovered The Law of Love
was a far greater scientist than any of our modern scientists."
MKGANDHI
“Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.”
Albert Einstein
“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.”
William Shakespeare, 12th Night |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Luv said:
| Quote: | | The Pastor has let me know that he has me in his sites recently and I am feeling like I'm ready to bolt because I'm starting to feel like a cornered animal. |
Church is a place we are supposed to be able to go and find peace and acceptance and unconditional love...
If it were me, I would take this as a threat..
or tell him to poke out which ever eye is bothering him.. 
what does that mean Luv, has you in his sites?
hugs
lone |
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