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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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 Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | trettep,
I think see what you are saying. The problem I have with that term is that "works of the flesh" are things like fornication according to Gal 5:19.
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So is the letter of the law when it is perceived in a fleshy manner. This was its problem. Case in point is in the Epistle of Barnabas. You might not consider it inspired text - but I do and so did the earliest of canons.
For example, take the Sabbath. Many continue to worship a fleshy Sabbath. In other words they rest from their own labors not realizing that the purpose of the Sabbath is to show us to cease from our works of the flesh (not our physical labors) and this sabbath is at the end of the Spiritual week not the physical week.
God's message is Spiritual and yet many people are still attempting to worship Him physically.
I suggest you read this text even if you don't consider it inspired as it will give another perspective:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
| trettep wrote: | | So is the letter of the law when it is perceived in a fleshy manner. |
I think I understand what you are saying but don't necessarily agree with that statement.  I think we are on the same page, but the terminology is different. I don't believe doing the "works of the flesh" and having a "fleshly frame of mind" regarding the law are the same thing. Having a "fleshly frame of mind", in that doing works can earn you righteousness or salvation is differrent then doing "works of the flesh" as Gal 5 points out. Let me explain. If a person chooses to follow the dietary restriction of the mosiac law that wouldn't be a sin, like fornication is a sin. We are free to make that choice. Fleshly frame of mind: To insist that we must apply these dietary restriction for salvation is a sin as that isn't true. Does that make sense to you? The difference is: it is not possible for a person to commit fornication and it not be a sin, or wrong. Christian aren't free to make that choice. 
Col 2:16 Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath;
Such things aren't necessary for salvation, as they were a shadow of things to come, as the reality belongs to the Christ. Yet such things aren't sins in themselves.
However, the one exception I see is to provide an animal sacrifice for your sins, according to the law, would be wrong in itself as Jesus provided the sacrifice we needed, once for all time. That would show a lack of faith in Jesus' sacrifice. 
If somene chooses to observe a sabbath, that is not a sin and the man shouldn't be judged. If this person thinks this action pleases God, he would be wrong,  as it is no longer necessary. Fleshly frame of mind: To insist the sabbath is necessary for salvation is a sin as that isn't true.
In other words works of the flesh , as shown in Gal 5:19, are always wrong in themselves. Apart from the sacrifices, works of the mosiac law aren't wrong in themselves, but insisting we must follow that law is wrong. I believe this is what you are saying as well. Am I right? 
Fornication is wrong in itself!!! Can you see the difference?
The site you provided is very long, I may look at it later. I saw some of the subheadings and I didn't see anything disagreeable. Is there a specific part that applies to topic you wanted me to see?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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TBAX, I think I see where we disagree. It seems to me you believe that the law was done away with but that someone can still do those things in the law but to think that they will be saved by doing such is not correct. I see the law as being completely in force on the Spiritual scale. In other words I believe we must observe the Sabbath. We must abstain from eating (Spiritual Consumption) those things that beast do, we must have our feet washed (spiritually speaking not physically), that we must observe the feast days of the Lord (Spiritually not physically), etc... For example, the law says eye for eye tooth for tooth. But again, this should be understood in the Spiritual sense. For example, the taking of our spirit to give us His. The taking of our lives to give us His, etc... That is eye for eye and tooth for tooth to me. I believe that the Sabbath is the period at which one is no longer practicing sin and now walks in Christ - that is the period at which they have rested from their fleshy ways (their works). See the LAW is still there but Spiritually not physically. Hope that makes sense.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
| Trettep wrote: | | It seems to me you believe that the law was done away with but that someone can still do those things in the law but to think that they will be saved by doing such is not correct. |
With some of the requirements, yes. With the stipulated penalties, no. The law of the Christ stresses mercy where possible. If someone was caught commiting fornication, under that law they were to be put to death. Not so now. Mercy allows them the chance to repent and turn around. If they do they can be washed clean.
I believe the mosiac law was a perfect law, stressing perfect justice. That law was a tutor leading to Christ, in that it showed the Isrealites no one could perfectly keep that law, thus all were worthy of death. It showed they needed a redeemer to buy back what Adam lost. Jesus, did perfectly keep that law, and offered up his perfect life to buy back what Adam lost for us. The law showed perfect justice demanded a like for a like. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul, ect. That is why Jesus is called the last Adam. Adam was a perfect man, yet gave that up selling his offspring (us) into sin and death. Jesus was a perfect man and sacrificed that life to buy back what Adam lost for us.
| trettep wrote: | | I believe that the Sabbath is the period at which one is no longer practicing sin and now walks in Christ - that is the period at which they have rested from their fleshy ways (their works). |
An interesting thought. The spiritual sabbath is a deep subject. Jesus called himself the lord of the sabbath. I believe that was in reference to the millennial reign where Jesus will undo all the harm caused by many millenniums of Satanic rule. In the past, entering into God's rest meant entering the promised land.
KJVHeb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
That millennial reign is my promised land. However we do enjoy a spiritual paradise even today.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hi TBAX, I heard that same similiar idea before which is why I had to go back and rethink about it as well. From what I understand of what your saying is that the law that Moses brought was to bring death. I that that is the result of that law when exercising it apart from what it meant - again the fleshy perspective. For example consider that Paul says the following concerning the law:
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Notice Paul says the commandment was ordained unto life. He further states:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
I think herein lies that problem that I'm describing. That the Law is Spiritual and when understood from the Spirit it brings us Life but when understood from our carnal perspetive it brings forth death.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
The mosiac law was beneficial to the Isrealites. If they listened to the laws regarding the quarintines, or the food restrictions, or the health codes their health would benefit and they would live longer. Jehovah taught the Isrealites to benefit themselves.
(Isaiah 48:17) This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk.
However, that law also exposed them as sinners unable to earn salvation by themselves.
2 Cor 3:7 Moreover, if the code which administers death and which was engraved in letters in stones came about in a glory, so that the sons of Israel could not gaze intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, [a glory] that was to be done away with,
Rom 7:7 What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.”
The mosiac law code was done away with at Jesus death, thus became obsolete.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | trettep,
Hi,
The mosiac law was beneficial to the Isrealites. If they listened to the laws regarding the quarintines, or the food restrictions, or the health codes their health would benefit and they would live longer. Jehovah taught the Isrealites to benefit themselves.
(Isaiah 48:17) This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk.
However, that law also exposed them as sinners unable to earn salvation by themselves.
2 Cor 3:7 Moreover, if the code which administers death and which was engraved in letters in stones came about in a glory, so that the sons of Israel could not gaze intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, [a glory] that was to be done away with,
Rom 7:7 What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.”
The mosiac law code was done away with at Jesus death, thus became obsolete. |
Only via the letter was the law done away with. That is the point I'm trying to make. What the letter was an image of remains.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1968
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
Fair enough.
The old law forshadowed something greater, indeed. The reality, which is the Christ.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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