 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Paul taught we are saved by Works (according to trettep) |
 |
|
| In this post (LINK) trettep wrote: | Here is what Paul says:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
So ETERNAL LIFE (Salvation) is rendered ACCORDING to deeds (WORKS). The same word "deeds" is translated elsewhere as "works". So works are a requirement to receiving Eternal Life and thus Salvation according to what Paul Preached. |
And I shall probably regret ignoring that post. However I just couldn’t believe there was anyone alive today who could seriously (and with a straight brain) believe this. But…
| Once more in this post (LINK) trettep wrote: | | Paul taught that Eternal Life is rendered based on works just as James did. There is no difference except to who they were sent and that there were different types of audiences (Jew and Gentile). The message was the same regarding how to be saved. |
trettep in that your obduracy is beyond measure, I merely post this for the forum at large, but one can hardly say that Paul taught one is saved by works. Even if we just cherry pick, we find:
2Ti 1:9 KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Eph 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Gal 3:10 KJV For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 2:16 KJV Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:28 KJV Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. What part of NOT don't you get?
Darth Yehu
(I shall address the issue of Romans 2 next.)
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
....
....
...
can't find the right word... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theseldomscene wrote: | ....
....
...
can't find the right word... |
I WIN! 
Having finally rendered TSS speechless, a singular miracle in evidence for all to see, I now retire from the board (NOT).
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.
Last edited by Yehushuan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wilber
Banned
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 581
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Last 2 posts - 
x x x |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 395
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yehu this one is easy!
Through Faith it is possible to be justified by deeds, It is not deeds that brings you in heaven, but faith, and if your faith is right, automatically your deed are too. It is mercy, love and faith that makes this possible!
Ever thought of Ranks in the heaven?
And your deeds will determine your rank?
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Prys die Heer! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Diane
Cobra
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 470
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
It is the faith OF Christ that saved us.
He did what we cannot do for ourselves.
Faith is a gift from God....and the ability to receive it as well. The Author and Finisher of our faith. Then comes the works.
Di
_________________
God is love and love never fails.
The Beautiful Heresy – If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save all of His creation makes me a heretic, sign me up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | Through Faith it is possible to be justified by deeds, |
I have heard this sort of thing taught for many years. If one hears it enough, it starts to seem to make sense. But Paul wrote in Romans 4:
| Quote: | 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. |
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | Ever thought of Ranks in the heaven?
And your deeds will determine your rank? |
Having attended quite a few charismatic churches in my life, I have heard this sort of thing taught and know what scriptures are used to teach it.
The scriptures that speak of rewards are all worded as though the believer already has the reward, and are warnings not to lose it. This fact is not pointed out by the preachers who preach this stuff.
The scriptures that speak of a crown laid up for us do not indicate that some will not get a crown, or that some will get a bigger one than others. The Bible says Jesus has made us all kings and priests.
I had to comment, having heard this kind of teaching for many years. But I will let Yehu continue. It sounds like some interesting material is soon to be presented here.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | Through Faith it is possible to be justified by deeds… |
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | It is not deeds that brings you in heaven… |
Prysdie, you really need to proofread your posts. These two statements are linguistically contradictory. Justification is that which DOES get you into heaven. If deeds don’t “bring” (get) you into heaven, then it is Not possible to be justified by deeds. So is it the “OT” part of NOT that you don’t understand or what?
Yehu
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | Ever thought of Ranks in the heaven? |
No. I’ll be God.
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | And your deeds will determine your rank? |
The fact that you so champion the Bible yet are unable to actually use it in Exegesis doesn’t bother you? 
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is a major problem with the issue of faith though. In the English language faith is a noun, whereas in the Greek it can be either a noun or a verb.
If it is to be noun it is something that can be possessed like a car or a house (we can 'have' faith).
If it is a verb it is something that must be done, meaning 'acts of faith.' My own bias is towards this meaning.
Given the Christian focus here, acts we do that are based upon promises of God count as acts of faith. One problem though is that according to Hebrew 11 those promises need not even be fulfilled yet and our acts of faith may appear to be futile and worthless (seen with worldly eyes). So success in the 'here and now' is not a criterion to judge if those acts are good.
God's faith is so complete that as soon as he thinks of something it is on its way to completion so He must be very careful about his thinking. Our faith is a poor imitation of God's and in a sense it is God acting within us.
Limited as it is by our egos and our limited understanding of what is best for us; faith seems to bring us to choices, will we choose God's way or our own way. Our ultimate act of faith is to trust God's way in spite of these limitations.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 45degreeN wrote: | | In the English language faith is a noun, whereas in the Greek it can be either a noun or a verb. |
Actually, that’s not quite the right way to say it - try this:
In the English language faith is a noun that has no corresponding verb form, whereas the Greek concept translated as ‘faith’ has both a verb and noun form. (Sorry, It’s my job to be picky.  )
Pistis (4102 πιστις) is the noun, which is rendered either as belief or faith.
Pisteuo (4100 πιστευω) is the verb, which is rendered as believe, but there is no verb form for faith.
The other problem is the necklace of medieval garlic hung around the neck of the word faith. Just as with hell, the word has taken on a life of its own that would be highly unrecognizable to the early Christian.
However, since the concept is expressed as both a noun and a verb, one cannot have a bias towards one over the other – it’s the same concept. How one can say he has a bias towards believing (verb form) over that of his beliefs (noun form) just doesn’t make sense to me. Beliefs (noun) are those things we believe (verb).
So we can talk of Belief “that can be possessed like a car or a house”. We most certainly can ‘have’ belief, in that such belief is imbued into the things believed – the things that comprise one’s belief. So I’m not sure we can propose a concept of “acts of belief”. Assuredly one can and does act upon one’s belief(s), but belief (or faith) CAN be separated and acknowledge apart from actions. What if someone doesn’t act upon what he believes? Can we accuse him of actually not believing? Of course not. I believe Christians should feed the poor, but I also know I’m saving up $2,000 for a set of bagpipes, and I don’t plan on selling my computer in order to give such money to the poor. Would you condemn my belief as dead? (Yet what of the times I have fed the poor?)
So we most certainly can believe (verb) something that doesn’t immediately translate into certain “acts of belief”. Belief is Not the “acts of belief,” (just as Faith is NOT Works) but rather something that is behind these acts. Would you say that Repent means Do Penance? I doubt it, but assuredly were one to repent, then one can be expected to not be the same in his actions.
The real problem is what should we do about our beliefs? Should WE be in control demanding that we perform “acts of belief”? Or are we to be hearing (listening) to the voice of the Spirit, not condemning or judging what we do until God TELLS us to do something? As for me, when God says to me, “Do this!” I do it. As a case in point, I most readily drive by stranded motorists care free as can be until the occasion passes when as I drive by, I hear “Stop and help.” Then I do so.
| 45degreeN wrote: | | He must be very careful about his thinking. |
No He doesn’t, because anything He thinks is good. Why would God need to be careful about being Good?
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The book of Romans is by far the most complex attempt of Paul to put forth his theology in a systematic manner. It also the most dangerous book in the New Testament from which to extract doctrinal beliefs by casually cherry picking one or two verse segments to be read apart from the context in which they sit. Ultimately, any doctrine derived from the book of Romans must come from within an outline of the book as a whole. Study of the entire book is necessary, breaking down the complete book into an outline, tagging sections that deal with Paul’s various themes – justification without law, salvation of the Hebrew peoples, etc. Only when this is done can we escape the possibility of Major doctrinal errors coming from the typical one or two verse attention span of the casual Christian.
Just because my time (as well as your attention span) is limited, I do not propose to provide an entire outline of the book of Romans. Such is worth an entire semester in the seminary or bible school of your choice. It’s also worth it for you to do so on your own for personal study. My point here, is that Paul does not intend for Romans 2:1–6 to be understood apart from a LARGE section of text that comprises his entire point: (Romans 1:16 through Romans 3:18).
So what does 2:1-6 actually say?
Rom 2:1-6 KJV Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (2) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. (3) And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? (4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; (6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Yes, God will render to every man according to his deeds, and the words even sound as if some can achieve eternal life by their deeds:
Rom 2:6-8 KJV Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Yet what is the end ultimate outcome of such judgment according to one’s deeds? Is there any one righteous enough that by their deeds they CAN be rendered eternal life when so judged?
Paul had already concluded that the Pagan cannot:
Rom 1:21-25 KJV Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 2:1-2 KJV Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (2) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. Yet the judgment in verse six is for BOTH Jew and Gentile regardless of the Gentile NOT having the Law since:
1) Rom 2:11 KJV For there is no respect of persons with God.
2) Rom 2:14 KJV For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Paul then continues to conclude that not even the Jew can be righteous enough that by their deeds they CAN be rendered eternal life.
Rom 2:24 KJV For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 3:9-11 KJV What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. So let’s contrast 3:11 with 2:6,7
Rom 2:6-7 KJV Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Indeed God will render eternal life to them who seek yet in 3:11 Paul says NONE seeketh after God. Hence we conclude that NONE will be rendered eternal life when judged according to his deeds, and this is EXACTLY Paul’s conclusion:
Rom 3:20 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:23 KJV For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (REMEMBER, eternal life is rendered to those who “seek for glory” but Paul says ALL fall short of the glory.)
Rom 3:28 KJV Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:30 KJV Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Through DEEDS, all fail and none will be rendered Eternal life. But through FAITH, both Jew and Gentile shall be justified.
This isn't rocket science, people. Just good outlining.
Yehushuan
(Ex Cathedra)
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yehu must not understand that faith is not just a noun but a verb also and as a verb requires some act.
Acts of faith whatever they are are rewarded.
When we act according to the law just because we want to be justified we fail, but when we act according to the law because we trust God, it does count. Go figure.
There is so little difference between the two when looked at by the world, and oceans of difference when looked at by God.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
45degreeN doesn’t seem to understand that the word Faith isn’t in the Bible at all. The best one can do to express the concept of pistis/pisteuo is to use the English word pair belief/believe (completely ignoring the word faith). The NT text does not have the concept of “acts of belief” at all.
Where do you people get off just making things up out of thin air just to satisfy your religious spirit?
One does not “act” according to the law (for that is to be led by one’s psyche which is exactly what the Jews tried to do). Rather, one “establishes the law” which means ANYTHING that is done in accordance with the guidance of the Holy Ghost as a Righteousness APART from Law – BECOMES law.
Yehushuan
Ex Cathedra
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yehushuan wrote: | | This isn't rocket science, people. Just good outlining. |
Yehu,
I am sorry I haven't taken the time to follow this thread lately. I read through it today. Your outline on the first few chapters of Romans is superb. And you make a great point - it's not high falutin' stuff, it's just following Paul's train of thought as he explains God's plan of salvation.
Nonetheless, it's very helpful reading for all here.
The argument that when we walk by faith in Christ, our actions mirror the law of the old covenant invariably ends up in one place: the emphasis totally on adherence to the law (it's never the whole law either, just randomly selected ones) and a complete absence of emphasis on relationship with God through faith in Christ. You know that's true because there are examples right here on these message boards. Also, when the adherence to the written law is equated with walking in the Spirit, it leads to judging others, using the law as a yardstick to measure others' realtionship to God. It leads to a holier-than-thou attitude of superiority. Plainly, that is not God's love.
Some who preach that idea here on the board have come out and stated that they see the new covenant as a "slight change". No wonder! Their version of the new covenant is essentially the old covenant with a few arbitrary revisions.
Folks, the new covenant in Christ's blood changed everything. If my righteousness is a gift to me, I can't judge you, because I don't deserve to have this gift myself! I can only accept you and love you. That's the fruit of the gospel.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
