A Shadow Of Good Things To Come

bitterlily · Last edited by bitterlily on Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Hi all,

Hebrews tells us that the OT Law has a shadow of good things to come:

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the ones approaching perfect. Hebrews 10:1

The True Priesthood with the Tabernacle, it's gifts and sacrifices were also foreshadowed in the OT Levitical Priesthood:

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: therefore it is of necessity that this man have something also to offer. For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, says he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount. Hebrews 8:2-5

The Food and Drinks, Feasts, New Moons and Sabbaths were also a shadow of things to come:

Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col 2:17

I get the impression from the following verse that the Apostle Paul never meant for us to understand his epistles in isolation; without the OT:

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming there went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women who were Greeks, and of men, not a few. Acts 17:10-12

Consider this for a moment...
Paul and Silas went into a synagogue of the Jews...
and these Jews searched the scriptures daily to see whether those things were so...
Therefore many believed...

QUESTION: What Scriptures were the Jews searching in their synagogue?

Anyone would be hard-pressed to convince me that these Berean Jews had a single page of the NT stored in their synagogue at this time. IMHO it is logical to conclude that these Jews became believers because they searched the OT Scriptures. Not the NT! And the NT only came to be regarded as Scripture by these early disciples because the NT seemed to be a true representation (the true image) of the OT Scriptures that they were accustomed too.

Let me draw a parralel of this for our time using this post as an example. Let's say that a person read this post and then (like the bereans) searched the OT & NT Scriptures to see whether what I was saying was true. That person might come to consider this post as part of Scripture! But would it be wise for this person to then close their Bible and replace it with everything I've ever written?

As hilarious as that sounds this is what most of Christianity seem to have done with the Apostle Paul's (and the other NT writers) epistles/posts.

How many times have you heard a Christian say that the NT is the OT REVEALED? One only has to study the OT to discover that this is not true! For example, in the NT we are not told what the act of fasting foreshadows. IOW fasting was not REVEALED by the NT. BUT in absolute contradiction to this belief, it was REVEALED by the OT:

Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching God. Why have we fasted, they say, and you see not? why have we afflicted our soul, and you take no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast you find pleasure, and exploit all your laborers. Behold, you fast for strife and debate, and to strike with the fist of wickedness: you shall not fast as you do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? will you call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring the poor that are cast out to your house? when you see the naked, that you cover him; and that you hide not yourself from your own flesh? Then shall your light break forth as the morning, and your health shall spring forth speedily: and your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard. Then shall you call, and the LORD shall answer; you shall cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If you take away from the midst of you the yoke, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness; And if you draw out your soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall your light rise in the darkness, and your darkness be as the noon day: And the LORD shall guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones: and you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. Isaiah 58:2-11

Note how similar this OT description of fasting is to what Jesus said about why He was anointed:

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Luke 4:17-21

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1 but who knew that this was also a reference to the fasting mentioned a few chapters earlier in Isaiah 58:

Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring the poor that are cast out to your house? when you see the naked, that you cover him; and that you hide not yourself from your own flesh? Isaiah 58:6-7

Next time someone calls a solemn fast what will you be doing? Going with out food or following the revealed pattern in the OT?

To summarise, the NT reveals some of the OT and the OT reveals some of the NT and one can not get an accurate perspective of either, without considering the other as well!

Could this be the explanation for why there are so many denominations and divisions within Christianity?

Good Night all!

_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

wilber · Banned Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 581

Thank you Bitterlily.

wilber

bitterlily · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject:

Hi Wilber,

I'm guessing your above post was meant to read:

wilber · Banned Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 581

Spooky!

You're a prophet! How did you do that??

wilber Very Happy

Nobby · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject:

Wilber, she would be called a prophetess! Very Happy

_________________
Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
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bitterlily · Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:08 am Post subject:

Thanks guys! I didn't know that a Prophet/ess is someone who can copy and paste a reply from an accidental double post! But if yous say so I won't argue with yous!

_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

MoJo · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:01 am Post subject:

Great post, lily. So much treasure in the OT. In fact, I just ran across a scripture in Daniel that supports the intent of your post;

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Dan 1:10 supports this chapter as being in the 3rd year of Cyrus. That really got me thinking that what is noted concerning the vision given to Daniel was noted prior to 534 BC. somewhere in previously written prophecies.

I just thought that was way cool. It not only confirms that understanding can be helped along by studying the OT, but that written scripture itself is the word of God as Jesus also testifies.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Diane · Cobra Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 470

Hi Bitterlily,

I enjoyed your post.

you wrote:

bitterlily · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject:

Hi Di,

I'm assuming your referring to the seeming discrepancies between Paul and James' epistles?

If so, my personal opinion for why many struggle with James' epistle is because they read it in isolation rather than as a collective with the Apostle Paul's epistles. IOW James was in full agreement with Paul's Gospel of Grace (IMO) but was trying to highlight a point that believers were missing regarding it.

Here is how I reconcile the comments of James (in particular) with Paul's Gospel of Grace.

Paul said:

Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are counterfeits? But I trust that you shall know that we are not counterfeits. 2 Corinthians 13:5-6

The Corinthians were being encouraged to examine themselves and discern whether they were in the faith or not; whether Christ dwelt in them or not. How is it possible for one to discern the answer to this from self examination?

...for the tree is known by its fruit. Matthew 12:33

Christ's tree produces fruit of the Spirit:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, self-control: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:22-24

The flesh (which has to be crucified) produces these fruit:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, impurity, licentiousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, jealousy, wrath, selfishness, divisions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of which I tell you beforehand, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Note that the fruits of the Spirit and the Flesh are Works and the tree (whether Spirit or Flesh) is responsible for producing fruit. Jesus said:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; NO MORE CAN YOU, except you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5

In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. John 15:8

So upon self examination one would find either the fruit/works of the Spirit or the fruit/works of the Flesh. And this (IMO) is the point that James was making:

What does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith(in the tree), and has not works(fruit)? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; yet you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? Even so faith (in the tree), if it has not works (fruit), is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, You have faith(in the tree), and I have works(fruit): show me your faith (in the tree) without your works(fruit), and I will show you my faith (in the tree) by my works(fruit). James 2:14-18

The Apostle John aludes to this same principle when he says:

But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his heart of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God(fruit) in him? 1 John 3:17

Not forgetting that:

...As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; NO MORE CAN YOU, except you abide in me...John 15:4-5

Now this to me is the Gospel of Grace, that when we abide in Jesus, fruits (works) of His Spirit miraculously grow on us as His branches. Some 100 fold, some 60 some 30. (Mat 13:23)

In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. John 15:8

So how does that sound Di? Very Happy

I hope this has reconciled the differences you see between Paul and the other NT writers.

Kind Regards
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

MoJo · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:10 am Post subject:

John also refers to it here;

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

IOW, the type of love being spoken about is manifested in deeds and not in lip service.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Manifest means to reveal, to make known, to appear.

There always seems to be so much confusion about works (deeds), but works are the manifestation of either an evil heart or a good heart. I mean, people don't just sit like a bump on a log. People are always doing deeds of one kind or another and so we can't dismiss them as being a intregal part of us as we do them according to our hearts and minds.

Even God and the Lord did deeds (works). In fact, we know God by his mighty works. Why should man be exempt from also manifesting works if we are made in His image?

IMO, you can't seperate belief from works and this causes a lot of confusion in understanding Paul. But the number of times Jesus refers to works, and the bible in general, should at least set up a red flag in how we should be understanding it.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Their (righteous) works do follow them because they are a testimony. But Jesus also says;

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Their evil works do also follow them as a testimony.

When you think of the mighty works done by God thru Jesus, it shows us just how much of himself the Father was willing to reveal/manifest for our sakes.

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm ( Jesus - right hand) in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Makes me want to weep when people say such awful things about Him.

As to who is doing the works- is it us or is it him- I believe it's a symbiotic relationship in which we play a certain part. He dwells with us in harmony and helps us and provides the nutrition. The point being, that if a person is in the tree, the whole tree works together in its various functions and seasons to produce the end result, which is the perfect fruit. The root, the trunk, branches, leaves etc. have a part. You might say, they work within the boundaries they were given.

The idea that branches can be cut off, concludes that people have some control over their deeds, which really is saying control of their hearts, as deeds are a manifestation of the heart.

IMHO, if you don't go with that, there is nothing left but to go with man being solely a puppet and that all good and all evil spring directly from God and man plays a zero part in it.

That's not something I can believe and would make the revealing of God to us and Jesus' sacrifice totally meaningless.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi Mojo----------

so the seal of God or the mark of the beast is in out forehead (our thoughts) or in our hand (our deeds) ?

much love---------knuckle

Diane · Cobra Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 470

Dear Bitterlily and Mojo,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful replies. And I agree mostly with the comments both of you made.

What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the teachings of most pastors/ministers in the church emphasize works of the believer (for blessings/salvation) rather than emphasizing Jesus's latter revelation to Paul (you will do greater works after Me...He said) who preached first comes faith/belief by God's choosing and by His grace.....then flows the works from love.

I would just like to reply to Mojo's comment about puppets. I'm seeing us (believers) as clay in the Potter's Hand. Can the pot say to the Potter - why did you make me like this? He is the treasure in earthen vessels. For we are His handiwork.

The following are some of the differences that I'm seeing in a possible explanation of two gospels:

Gospel of the Circumsion

Peter called in Israel (Mt. 4:18)
Proclaimed among Israelites (Js. 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:1)
Salvation because of Israel (Acts 10:30-32)
Saints termed the bride of the Lambkin (Jn. 3:29; Rev. 21:9)
Glory of the terrestrial (1 Cor. 15:40; Jn. 3:12)
Racial distinctions important (Mt. 19:28; Rev. 21:12)
Believers known from the disruption of the world (Rev. 17:8)
Believers called first, then chosen (Mt. 22:14)
Will keep law (Mic. 4:2)
Water baptism required (Ac. 2:38)
Must be begotten anew ("born again" - Jn. 3:3)
Pardoned of guilt (that is, forgiven - Lk. 11:4)
The irreverent are condemned (2 Pet. 2:5-6)
Must have works, or faith is dead (Js. 2:20)
Must be an overcomer to avoid second death (Rev. 2:11)
Must forgive others for God to forgive them (Mt. 6:15)
Expecting grace (1 Pet. 1:13)
Not yet manifested what they shall be (1 Jn. 3:2)
His manifestation is their change (1 Jn. 3:2)
Exhorted to toss worry on Him (1 Pet. 5:7)
Exhorted to remain in Him (1 Jn. 2:28)
Tend to have difficulty apprehending Paul (2 Pet. 3:15-16)
Must be watching (Lk. 12:37; Heb. 9:28)
Can be put to shame at His presence (1 Jn. 2:28)
Will go through day of indignation (Rev. 7:1-17)
Will receive Christ on earth (Acts 1:11-12; Zech 14:4)
Saved left, unsaved taken out (Mt. 24:38-41)
To be a kingdom of priests over nations (Rev. 2:26-27; Is 61:6)
Will fill earth with knowledge of God's glory (Hab. 2:14)
Will judge twelve tribes of Israel (Mr. 19:28)
Will have access to temple courts (Rev. 7:15)

Gospel of Grace

Paul called outside Israel (Acts 9:3)
Proclaimed among the nations (Eph. 3:8)
Salvation in spite of Israel (Acts 13:6-12; Rom. 11:15)
Saints termed the body of Christ (Eph. 5:30)
Glory of the celestial (1 Cor. 15:40; Jn. 3:12)
Racial distinctions irrelevant (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:28)
Believers known before the disruption of the world (Eph. 1:4)
Believers chosen first, then called (Rom. 8:30)
Not under law (Rom. 6:14)
Water baptism not required (1 Cor. 1:17; 12:13)
Are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17)
Not even guilty (that is, justified - Rom. 5: 1)
The irreverent are justified (Rom. 4:5)
Must not be working, only having faith (Rom. 4:5)
Saved from second death by grace alone (Eph. 2:8-9)
Deal graciously with others as God has dealt graciously (Eph. 4:32)
Standing in grace (Rom. 5:2)
Are mirroring the Lord's glory (2 Cor. 3:18)
His manifestation is their manifestation (Col. 3:4)
Exhorted not to worry about anything (Php. 4:6)
Died with Him; He cannot disown Himself (2 Tim. 2:11,13)
Tend to apprehend both evangels (2 Cor. 12:11)
Watching or drowsing (1 Thess. 5:10)
Will be changed at His presence (1 Thess. 4:15-17; 1 Cor. 15:52)
Not appointed to indignation (1 Thess. t:10; 5:9)
Will meet Christ in air (1 Thess. 4:17)
Saved taken out, unsaved left (1 Thess. 4:17)
To have an allotment among the celestials (Eph. 2:6)
Will dispense God's wisdom among the celestials (Eph. 3:10-12)
Will judge angels (1 Cor. 6:3)
Have access to the Father Himself (Eph. 2:18)

These references are from a chart on this SITE

Any further thoughts? Very Happy

Love, Di
_________________
God is love and love never fails.

The Beautiful Heresy – If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save all of His creation makes me a heretic, sign me up.

Yehushuan · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject:

Diane · Cobra Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 470

Yehu wrote:

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi All--------

James taught that we must do the deeds of the law.

Which law?The law of sin and death with it's 613 rules and ordinances?No.

The Law of liberty,the light yoke which Jesus offered which is built on two commandments 1--Love the Lord thy God with all your being and 2--love your fellow man

much love---------knuckle