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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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 Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
Yes.  If you do not cooperate or try to understand you will not be sharpened. O-well. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Some more scriptures on salvation which I have been meditating on:
2 Cor 5
| Quote: | 14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. |
Eph 2:
| Quote: | 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. |
The gospel is not the message that God is angry with man. That God and man were at odds was already a given. The gospel is a message of peace between God and man. Of reconciliation of the dispute between us. And of the uniting of those who were God's chosen nation under the old covenant with those who previously were outside of the promises of God, to both be a new chosen people.
Brother Bax, I have not forgotten there are one or two things I said I would get back to you about. When my schedule allows. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | The gospel is not the message that God is angry with man. That God and man were at odds was already a given. The gospel is a message of peace between God and man. Of reconciliation of the dispute between us. |
Amen!
And it is God who makes righteous and makes competent. Not that we are competent in ourselves to become righteous as from our own actions, but our competence and righteousness are from God, who has made us righteous and competent not according to the letter (law, what is written), but according to and of the Spirit. For the letter, as has been proven, kills, but the Spirit gives life! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
I don't have a problem with your last post as written. The subject we were speaking of shows not all men accept that provision for salvation though.
John 3:36 He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
Also, the fact that we need ot apply what we learn is vital.
James 1:22 However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. 25 But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it].
People who say doing what is right isn't necessary are deceiving others and themselves. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
I don't have a problem with your last post as written. |
That is good to hear.
| TBax wrote: | | Also, the fact that we need ot apply what we learn is vital. |
That statement is interesting. Is the gospel by which we are saved a "learning"? A knowlege? A "gnosis"? Or is it the news of our savior's redemptive sacrifice? Do you see the distinction I'm pointing out? Is it a level of education you must attain to and apply, or is it acknowleging what the savior has done and knowing He has made you right with God?
| TBax wrote: | | People who say doing what is right isn't necessary are deceiving others and themselves. |
As Paul showed in Romans 1 - 3, it's academic. All have fallen short of God's standard of righteousness. The scripture has concluded all under sin. No one has done what is right. Not to the extent God requires.
So if we say doing what is right is required, we are making that a requirement for salvation in addition to faith in our Lord and His redemptive work. And therefore, we would have to acknowlege that we are all condemned, without hope.
The scriptures I quoted in my last post say that we live unto God because the love of Christ constrains us, not because a rule says we have to or else we'll be punished. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | Do you see the distinction I'm pointing out? |
I think I see what you are saying. You are trying to minimize that scripture and the meaning of "being a doer of the word".  It appears you are deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 
James 1:22 However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
...
this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it].
| Zathrus wrote: | | The scriptures I quoted in my last post say that we live unto God because the love of Christ constrains us, not because a rule says we have to or else we'll be punished. |
God puts his law in the true disciples hearts. We listen to God not simply out of duty but because we want to, out of love for God. However, our actions do show who we are. Paul showed your idea of no rules to be wrong. If one continues to practice the works of the flesh they will not inherit God's kingdom!!! That is a rule. If they practice such things they are to be removed from the congregation. That is a rule.
| Zathrus wrote: | | No one has done what is right. Not to the extent God requires. |
Not to the extent God requires for us to earn salvation. Correct!  However, if you do not even try to DO what is right then you fail to DO what is required for you to recieve that gift of life. Your actions show what your faith is. If you have no proper actions or obedience you have no faith.
(John 3:36) He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | Do you see the distinction I'm pointing out? |
I think I see what you are saying. You are trying to minimize that scripture and the meaning of "being a doer of the word". It appears you are deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. |
TBax, I'd hoped you'd be more reasonable and discuss this rather than use rhetoric. You either don't see what I'm saying or you're seeing it only in terms that you want to see it in.
| TBax wrote: | | Paul showed your idea of no rules to be wrong. |
Actually Paul spoke most clearly and at length on the concept that righteousness is inward, and that outwardly just and right behavior come from inward principles and a transformed nature, not from outwardly imposed rules.
| TBax wrote: | | If one continues to practice the works of the flesh they will not inherit God's kingdom!!! That is a rule. |
That is a gross oversimplification of an out of context scripture that authoritarian religious groups find convenient for controlling people through fear and guilt.
Think with me, TBax. What was the letter to the Galatians about? What message did Paul warn them not to heed? Would he then in the same epistle preach that very message to them? He called that list of immoral and wicked acts the "works of the flesh". What had he been referring to as living in the flesh earlier in the epistle? Hanging out at the local pub, drinking, smoking and eyeing the ladies? That's not what he defined as living in the flesh. Look at the context. The works of the flesh are the result of heeding and living under the message that Paul warned the Galatians about in the whole rest of the epistle. Don't zero in on one little statement and be oblivious to Paul's whole train of thought. If anything, your repeated quoting of the verses listing the works of the flesh shows the results of living under an outwardly imposed set of requirements for righteousness, as the poor souls in the Witness organization do.
| TBax wrote: | | If they practice such things they are to be removed from the congregation. That is a rule. |
It sure is.
| TBax wrote: | | Not to the extent God requires for us to earn salvation. However, if you do not even try to DO what is right then you fail to DO what is required for you to recieve that gift of life. |
Re-read these statements to yourself, TBax. I know after you've heard it for so long, it starts to seem to sound right, but think about what you said here. Far as I can tell, DOING what is required to receive something is the same as earning it. And that means it's not a gift. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | As Paul showed in Romans 1 - 3, it's academic. All have fallen short of God's standard of righteousness. The scripture has concluded all under sin. No one has done what is right. Not to the extent God requires.
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Yes WE are all fallen short of the Glory of God but Jesus didn't.
| Quote: |
So if we say doing what is right is required, we are making that a requirement for salvation in addition to faith in our Lord and His redemptive work. And therefore, we would have to acknowlege that we are all condemned, without hope.
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Here is where I have some problem. For doing what IS RIGHT is REQUIRED to be saved and that can ONLY be accomplished by the Faith of Jesus. So it is true that we are all hopeless in our own works but by doing what is RIGHT according to Christ we have hope. The RIGHT I'm referring to is not according to the letter of the law but according to what the Letter points to and represents which is STILL LAW. So everywhere you find any statements from Paul or others that say we are not saved by works is referring to those works of the flesh - not those of Christ. His were the works of God.
Paul |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 690
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Trettep "The RIGHT I'm referring to is not according to the letter of the law but according to what the Letter points to and represents which is STILL LAW. So everywhere you find any statements from Paul or others that say we are not saved by works is referring to those works of the flesh - not those of Christ. His were the works of God."
Forgive me jumping in here, please. Exactly how are you defining or meaning "STILL LAW?" I'm trying to follow what you mean. Thanks. God bless. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| pastor2022 wrote: |
Forgive me jumping in here, please. Exactly how are you defining or meaning "STILL LAW?" I'm trying to follow what you mean. Thanks. God bless. |
Hi pastor2022. Hopefully, the light bulb goes on when reading the following:
The letter of the law is an image. Just as man is an image of God so is the letter an image of the Truth (The Spiritual Law). We know there is law for it is to be written in the hearts of believers. But let's dig into what I'm talking about.
Consider the problem that cars provide on the highways. We need to come up with a law that will reduce injury and death on the highway. We want a law that tells us to not go fast in order to REDUCE INJURY and DEATH ON THE HIGHWAYs. So we put forth the letter which reads. OBEY ESTABLISHED SPEED LIMITS. So lets summarize so far - we have:
The Spirit that establishes the letter - which is Do not speed in order to reduce injury and death on the highways. Then we have the letter which is to OBEY ESTABLISHED SPEED LIMITS.
Ok so the letter is what the Old Covenant brought us which is to obey established speed limits. But what is the problem with that? - The problem is that the letter became a replacement for what established it. The letter was the image and instead man began to worship it instead of what it represented. Under the pharisees today if you broke the speed limit in order to AVOID an accident - you would be guilty because you broke the established speed limits. But under the New Covenant - under the TRUTH - under what the letter is an image of - your would be given MERCY because you obeyed the INTENT or Spirit that established the letter in the first place. This is why even though Jesus broke laws that were written He didn't break the LAW and was thus blameless. For He obeyed the intent of all the laws of the letter. Therefore, because this letter of the law was ordained unto life - for it was meant to teach us of God and His Spirit instead it was needful to remove us from being under the letter because now the letter gave no Mercy which is exactly what the Pharisees were accused of doing - which was not giving Mercy.
Hope this helps. If not ask questions.
Your servant in Christ,
Paul |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 690
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks...I see now where you're coming from. God bless. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax, I'd hoped you'd be more reasonable and discuss this rather than use rhetoric. |
I had hoped you were done trying to turn scriptures into meaningless words.
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | If one continues to practice the works of the flesh they will not inherit God's kingdom!!! That is a rule. |
That is a gross oversimplification of an out of context scripture that authoritarian religious groups find convenient for controlling people through fear and guilt. |
You mean like the first century Christians?
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
| Zathrus wrote: | | The works of the flesh are the result of heeding and living under the message that Paul warned the Galatians about in the whole rest of the epistle. |
Do you drink when you read the Bible? Your point is total nonsense.  We don't have fleshly desires because of false teachings. We are naturally sinnful, and we have to fight against our flesh. Paul is clearly warning that those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit God’s kingdom. The more you try to explain the more clueless you seem. 
Eph 3:5 Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. 7 In those very things YOU, too, once walked when YOU used to live in them. 8 But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. 9 Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, 10 and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth´i·an, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Far as I can tell, DOING what is required to receive something is the same as earning it. And that means it's not a gift. |
That is why you fail. No one is entitled to life. We are all sinners and deserve death. But thanks to Christ's sacrifice we can have everlasting life. Just because we CAN have it doesn't mean everyone will. God tells us what we must do to recieve this undeserved gift.
(John 3:36) He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
Having faith or believeing in Jesus entails altering our life and our actions. Do you believe this? 
Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me.
James 1:22 However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
Quit deceiving yourself with false reasonings. Become a doer of the word. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
Very nice explanation.
I see only two minor points I would like to address. 
| trettep wrote: | | Paul or others that say we are not saved by works is referring to those works of the flesh |
I believe the works Paul was refering to were the works of the mosiac law. If someone doesn't have faith no matter how closely they follow the mosiac law they will not earn salvation. Plus the mosiac law was done away with at Christs death. Some in the congregations were still trying to hold on to certain unimportant aspects of that law.
I especially liked your explanation of the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law.
However:
| trettep wrote: | | This is why even though Jesus broke laws that were written He didn't break the LAW and was thus blameless. |
The Pharisees made additions to the mosiac law. Additions not intended by God. Jesus broke these additions but not the mosiac law. The sabbath, for instance. A day set apart by God for rest from regular labors; the Sabbath was given by Jehovah as a sign between him and the sons of Israel. However, this regular labor restriction didn't apply to the priests and their duties. And if a soul was in distress it certainly didn't mean you couldn't help them.
| Insight on the Scriptures wrote: | | the Jewish religious leaders, especially after the return from Babylonian exile, gradually made it a burdensome thing by greatly increasing the Sabbath restrictions to 39, with innumerable lesser restrictions. These, when compiled, filled two large volumes. For example, catching a flea was forbidden as hunting. A sufferer could not be given relief unless death threatened. A bone could not be set, nor a sprain bandaged. The true purpose of the Sabbath was made void by these Jewish religious leaders, for they made the people slaves to tradition, instead of having the Sabbath serve men to the honor of God. |
Again, very nice explanation of:
Isa 31:33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi TBAX, I believe the performing the mosaic law according to the letter is performing deeds of the flesh since to view as THE LAW is a fleshy perspective and not what it was intended for.
Also regarding the changes to the law. I don't doubt such changes existed. But I was referring non changed laws.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
I think see what you are saying. The problem I have with that term is that "works of the flesh" are things like fornication according to Gal 5:19.
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