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bart007 Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 50 Location: Rockland NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: Messiah as Prophet - Mosaic Law is Weak and Useless |
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Messiah as Prophet
I would like to share the importance of the Mosaic Law.
Yes, some of the Ten Commandments overlap Hammurabi's Code. It does not take any special insight for humankind to realize that shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. I happen to believe that from Noah, that early civilizations consisted of rather moral people and that the growth of unethical conduct (sin) has been on the increase, more or less, ever since.
Even if people credit the Hammurabi code as containing many statutes found in the later written Mosaic Law, these laws, of themselves, are useless in regards with respect to making people righteous.
It is my view that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments et. al. for him to give to the people of the exodus, because the people were hard hearted. God wanted them to trust not their own understanding, but to walk with Him by faith and not by sight. They did not know how to walk and live by faith; they wanted a visible clear contract so they would know exactly what God required of them in order for them to receive all of His blessings. Indeed, they received this Law most enthusiastically, declaring at least twice "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" and entering into this covenant with God based on their pledge of full adherence to the Mosaic Law and the sprinkling of the blood of sacrificed young bulls upon them.
Ex 19:7-9
7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words that the LORD had commanded him. 8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. 9 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD.
NASU
Ex 24:3-8
3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, " All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!" 4 Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the LORD. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, " All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!" 8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."
NASU
The Mosaic Law was weak and useless in that it perfected no one, but rather, proved to be a source of curses for those under the Mosaic Covenant. Rather than decrease sin, the Law increased sin among the people. Every person under the Mosaic Covenant proved himself to be unrighteous, except our lord Yeshua (Jesus).
To understand more completely God's plan for offering and providing salvation and blessings to All peoples on the earth, it is important to note that there is a limited value of the Mosaic covenant between God and His chosen people Israel.
"Oh that they had such a Heart in them...”
Thus God knew from the beginning, at the very giving of the Mosaic Law, that they were incapable of keeping the Mosaic Law.
Deut 5:28-30
28 "The LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me, 'I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They have done well in all that they have spoken. Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!"
NASU
Indeed, even after they committed themselves to keeping all the commandments of God, they repeatedly showed what little faith they had in God. All the men over twenty years of age would perish over the next 38 years, not being allowed into the promised land due to their disobedience to God's commands and their lack of faith in God.
Once again, after 40 years in the wilderness, Moses addressed all the people of the Mosaic Covenant who were going into the Promised Land and reiterated the importance of keeping the Torah, the Law, and advised them that the reward for keeping this covenant would be great blessings, and he told them specifically what these blessings would be. Deut. 28: 1-14.
Moses also informed Israel of the punishment (the curses which would befall them) for breaking the covenant between them and God, and he told them specifically what these curses would be. Deut. 28:15-68.
Though the curses included banishment from the land which God gave them and great suffering and persecution in foreign lands, restoration was also promised to Israel at the conclusion of this time of punishment, per Deuteronomy 30.
Then Moses instructed the people about the Covenant that bears his name,
"See, I have set before you this day life and prosperity, death and adversity. ... I call heaven and earth as a witness against you today that I set before you life and death, blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants." Deut. 30: 15 & 19.
In hindsight, we can see that Israel had chosen death and adversity. But this was no surprise to God, for He knew even as Moses was reiterating the Covenant, that His people were incapable of keeping it and would be, in effect, choosing death and adversity.
"Then YHWH said to Moses, "Behold, the time for you to die is near, call Yeshua, and present yourselves at the tent of meeting so that I may commission him". ... And YHWH said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake me and break My covenant that I have made with them". Deut. 31:14 & 16.
If God knew that His people would never Keep The Moasiac Law and they would receive the curses, why did He give them the Mosaic Law?
Jn 5:39-45
"[b]You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.NASU
Those under the Mosaic Law all are condemned!
Ro 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; ...NASU
In Hebrews Paul calls the Mosaic Law weak and useless becuase it could not save anyone. By fullfilling the Mosaic Law on our behalf, it is set aside for a much better covenant and a new set of Laws. Laws that save us and give us eternal life.
Heb 7:18-19
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), ...NASU
For the Mosaic Law focused our eyes on sin, and not on God. As in riding a motorcycle, where one is looking is where one is going to go.
So if the Mosaic Covenant is inadequate to provide Life to God's chosen, and much less so to the other peoples of the world, then what is God's plan to bless Israel and the peoples of the earth with life. (Remember, when G-d cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, He sent a cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life so that man may not eat of it and live forever).
The answer is given by Moses in Deut. 18:15-19
YHWH had another plan that will supercede the Mosaic Covenant:
"YHWH your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. This is according to all that you asked of YHWH your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'" YHWH said to me, 'They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words that He shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him." NASU.
This prophecy, along with many others to follow, focuses on that male descendant, the seed of Eve, who will crush the skull of the serpent, who will be a great blessing to Israel and the peoples of the world, the redeemer, the Saviour, the Messiah.
Who is this Prophet? That has been the big search throughout history. It is clear that ever since Moses, Israel has sought and been awaiting this Prophet. In Yeshua's (Jesus’s) day they asked him, 'Are you the Prophet whose coming is foretold?'
Yet, even in Moses day, God let it be known what the name of that Prophet is via a shadow of what was to come.
Deut 1:37-38
Not even you shall enter there. “Yeshua (i.e. Joshua, Jesus) the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter there; encourage him, for he will cause Israel to inherit it.” NASU
The above underscores that salvation, redemption, life itself, has not been achieved through the observance and adherence to the Mosaic covenant, and seems it was not intended to be, but somehow is directly related to this expected Messiah.
Gal 3:19-29
"Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith, which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. NASU
We, who are Christians, are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant. We can still agree, as people in Hammurabi's day did also, that things like shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. But the keeping of them is not the basis of our redemption, salvation, and righteousness. As it is written in Hebrews, Yeshua is a High Priest, not of the order of Aaron, but of Melchizedek, Where there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a change of Law. Whereas the Mosaic law was a long list of commandments and statutes that we were required to keep, The laws of Christ keep us and accounts to us righteousness.
Heb 7:11-22
Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");
so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU
Ro 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
NASU |
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Yehushuan King Kong

Joined: 30 Mar 2006 Posts: 2740 Location: Charismatic
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Messiah as Prophet - Mosaic Law is Weak and Useless |
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| bart007 wrote: | | source of curses for those under the Mosaic Covenant |
Exo 2:24 KJV And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Nope, no covenant with Moses.
| bart007 wrote: | | Then Moses instructed the people about the Covenant that bears his name, |
And just where might that be? The Law may bear his name, but there is no Covenant so identified. You gotta stop making up your own terms.
Yehu _________________ There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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FFT Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 6096 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | Exo 2:24 KJV And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Nope, no covenant with Moses. | This isn't exactly fair seeing as the events in Exodus 2 predate any contact Moses had with God.
| Yehushuan wrote: | | And just where might that be? The Law may bear his name, but there is no Covenant so identified. You gotta stop making up your own terms. | Exodus
34:27 The Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
It took me like two minutes to find this, by the way. _________________ When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Nobby Board - Admin

Joined: 16 Sep 2002 Posts: 5151 Location: Missouri
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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FFT, it only took me 30sec.
 _________________ Much Love Nobby
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Yehushuan King Kong

Joined: 30 Mar 2006 Posts: 2740 Location: Charismatic
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | This isn't exactly fair seeing as the events in Exodus 2 predate any contact Moses had with God. |
Then does this one meet with your approval?
Lev 26:42 KJV Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. Nope. Moses isn’t mentioned.
Sorry, FFT. While the covenant was with Israel, there is no reference anywhere to a specific “Mosaic” covenant. There is not a separate covenant with Moses apart from Israel, but rather, a covenant with the whole of Israel that includes Moses, but such is never called the “Mosaic Covenant” - anywhere.
Exo 24:8 KJV And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. It doesn’t read “us”. There was never a specific covenant between God and Moses as was directly with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This comes close:
Deu 9:14 KJV Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they. But Moses actually declined to have such a covenant.
There is always a concern that one may introduce theological error when one conjures up new terms.
Yehu _________________ There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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JB Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 747
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Debaters,
If God made a Covenant with Adam and HE made a covenant with Noah and He made a covenant with Abraham why not a covenant with Moses?
Just a thought |
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Silver Surfer Emperor of the World

Joined: 12 Jul 2003 Posts: 3002 Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Debaters,
If God made a Covenant with Adam and HE made a covenant with Noah and He made a covenant with Abraham why not a covenant with Moses?
Just a thought | God DID make a covenant with Noah.
Basicly, God told Noah that if he did what God told him to do, God would save him and his family. _________________ Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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FFT Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 6096 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Oops, forgot about this thread.
| Yehushuan wrote: | Then does this one meet with your approval?
Lev 26:42 KJV Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Nope. Moses isn’t mentioned. | Neither is Israel, so it's clearly not a complete list either way.
| Yehushuan wrote: | | Sorry, FFT. While the covenant was with Israel, there is no reference anywhere to a specific “Mosaic” covenant. | Exodus
34:27 The Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." _________________ When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Rocket House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 156
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Who is your leader today your church or Yeshua? What did Yeshua believe, did He follow the commandments? I believe He did. Did the Apostles follow the commandments, I believe they did. Without the commandments how do we know what sin is? Even the laws of the US are based on the 10 commandments.
So tell me, why is there so much disagreement on whether we follow the commandments or not. Why do you believe they are so hard to follow that you don't want them anymore?
Yeshua died for you, He believed them so should we. |
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