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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | PrysdieHeer! wrote: | Ever seen a bee hive?
It is constructed from hexagons.
It has been mathematically proven that a hexagon is the most efficient shape for storage!
How did the bees know that unless someone told them?
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They didn't have to 'be told'. The bees that didn't do it right died off, and the ones that did it right prospered and passed their genes on. Simple natural selection. |
First of all!
You don`t need to have hexagons to have storage. They would still survive with simple square hive!
Second!
Who told them to build there hive in a hexagon shape?
Third!
Natural selection is stupid!
If the toughest would survive, why then do we have humans and not much tougher dinosaurs?
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Prys die Heer! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6809
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
You don`t need to have hexagons to have storage. They would still survive with simple square hive!
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But as you pointed out, squares are not as efficient. They require more wax, and wax costs resources. The bees which wasted fewer resources and made hexagonal hives had an adaptive advantage over those who didn't, which is why the evolved to be that way.
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
Who told them to build there hive in a hexagon shape?
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Nobody. And even if they did, it's not like bees can understand instructions. It was evolution which gave them the instincts to build hexagonal honeycombs.
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
Natural selection is stupid!
If the toughest would survive, why then do we have humans and not much tougher dinosaurs?
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Because an asteroid killed all of the dinosaurs. They became extinct.
Do you even realize that none of these arguments that you're giving even remotely represent valid scientific arguments against evolution?
You're like someone who has never seen a car before trying to argue that it's impossible that the car can move because there isn't enough room under the hood for a horse. |
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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P123
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HA
HA
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Do you really think humans would survive an asteroid that would wipe out Dino's? AND WHY DIDN`T THEY EVOLVE AGAIN?
Bees can`t just happen to evolve by chance. So they did scientific experiments on each and every different shape until they found the best one? Does not sound very logic to me.
And if they evolved they had to start somewhere.
What was their first shape? oh it had to be a hexagon since otherwise they would not survive. But how did they know to build a hexagon? They could not have evolved knowledge!
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Prys die Heer! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6809
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
Do you really think humans would survive an asteroid that would wipe out Dino's?
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Because humans weren't around yet. They evolved something like 60 million years AFTER the dinosaurs went extinct.
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
AND WHY DIDN`T THEY EVOLVE AGAIN?
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Because the creatures which they evolved from weren't around anymore and even if they were the planet had changed, so the same evolutionary pathway no longer existed.
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
Bees can`t just happen to evolve by chance.
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It's not by chance. Survival of the fittest is DEFINITELY not a random process.
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
So they did scientific experiments on each and every different shape until they found the best one? Does not sound very logic to me.
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They didn't have to. That's not how evolution works. |
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The Barbarian
Hamster
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Bees can`t just happen to evolve by chance. |
Darwin's great discovery was that it doesn't happen by chance.
| Quote: | | So they did scientific experiments on each and every different shape until they found the best one? |
No, that evolved over time. We have examples of more primitive bees, with much less precise storage vessels.
| Quote: | | Does not sound very logic to me. |
Evidence trumps feelings.
| Quote: | And if they evolved they had to start somewhere.
What was their first shape? |
Depends. Some are mere shapeless forms. The Australian native bee:
The bees store their honey in "small resinous pots which look like bunches of grapes".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_native_bee
And then there is the famed "polyester bee"; Colletes inaequalis. Cells are formed of a polyester substance like cellophane.
| Quote: | | h it had to be a hexagon since otherwise they would not survive. |
All those other bees would argue with you on that point.
| Quote: | | But how did they know to build a hexagon? They could not have evolved knowledge! |
Evolved a habit that was beneficial. The more efficient the use of material, the more likely the hive was to survive. Gradual evolution changed habits to a suboptimal, but pretty good solution.
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Re. The phrase : the survival of the fittest:
Do the fittest survive because they are fittest,
Or
Are the fittest the fittest because they survive?
Could the unfit be taxonomized as the fittest or at most as the least fit just because the unfit survived?
Cd the fittest be taxonomized as the unfittest or at least as the lesser unfit because they did not survive?
Is there any independent standard by which to evaluate the fitability and unfitability of survivability?smile
Why do we have so many instances in which, by all accounts and standards, good brave and honest humans or evolutionary specimens die while bad cowardly evolutional liars survive?
If liars survive by lying, is there an inherent survival quality or factor in lying?
Have there been any experiments to discover if there is such a factor?
Hint to scientists as to where your next grant-application shd be directed.
And if there is a survival of the fittest factor in lying, why are the vast majority if not 100% of evolutionists so against deceit, dishonesty,fraud and lying?
Wdn't this anti-lying factor be a predisposing factor for and a pre-indicator of loss of survival and of being taxonomized as unfit, if not as unfittest?
Wd it qualify as ironic and as self-anti-evolutionic if evolution conferred the label of unfittest on and preslated for lack of survival its very promoters and most ardent promulgators?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Enquiring minds wd like to know!
With the Unique factor of Ever-surviving Love for the fit and unfit, for survivors and unsurvivors, for the fittest and the unfittest,the honest and dishonest, which Love guarantees both long life lived in Love, and short life lived in the Love that makes even short long,smile
Atoz |
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The Barbarian
Hamster
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do the fittest survive because they are fittest, |
Tend to.
| Quote: | | are the fittest the fittest because they survive? |
Not necessarily. The race is not always to the swift. That's where the smart money is, though.
| Quote: | | Could the most unfit be taxonomized as the fittest or at most as the least fit just because the unfittest survived? Cd the fittest be taxonomized as the unfittest or at least as the lesser unfit because the fittest did not survive? |
Perhaps you should think what you want to say, and try again.
| Quote: | | Is there any independent standard by which to evaluate the fitability and unfitability of survivability? |
Yes. See how it's calculated here:
http://darwin.eeb.uconn.edu/eeb348/lecture-notes/quant-evolution/node3.html
| Quote: | | Why do we have so many evolutionarial instances in which, by all accounts and standards, good brave and honest humans or evolutionary specimens die while bad cowardly evolutional liars survive? |
Evolution isn't obliged to preserve the most honorable. Like anything else in nature, it has no morals, no values.
| Quote: | Since the unfittest survive by lying,
is there a predispositional inherent survival quality or factor in lying? |
In deception, yes. Many species use it.
| Quote: | | And if there is a survival of the fittest factor in lying, why are the vast majority, if not 100%, of evolutionists so against deceit, dishonesty,fraud and lying? |
Because what is natural is not necessarily good.
| Quote: | | Wd it qualify as ironic and as self-anti-evolutionic if evolution conferred the label of unfittest on and preslated for lack of survival all of its very promoters and most ardent promulgators who are against lying? |
I bet many creationists think that way. It would explain a lot of things. |
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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You are ignoring the question!
How did they know they should build a hexagon?
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Prys die Heer! |
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The Barbarian
Hamster
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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How do rocks know they should roll to the bottom of a hill?
Bees don't think; they merely react to signals. Those that reacted in a useful way tended to leave more descendants. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6809
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | You are ignoring the question!
How did they know they should build a hexagon?
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We're not ignoring your question. In fact, it has been answered, and answered very clearly.
If part of the answer was unclear to you, then ask questions. |
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