Matt 24

MoJo · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:51 am Post subject:

In conclusion of what we have studied so far, there is still no solid connections to any time periods. Again, wars and rumors of wars have continued since Jesus made these statements. To move to the next verse........

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

for fun, let's just define some words;

Nation: Strongs

1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together

a) a company, troop, swarm

2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus

a) the human family

3) a tribe, nation, people group

4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles

5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

Funny, this word nation is translated Gentiles in many places and is also singular or plural.

Mat 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, [by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; ( nations )

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles (nations) seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Mat 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, (nations) and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles (nations) trust.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation (Gentiles) bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (Gentiles) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, (nations) until the times of the Gentiles (nations) be fulfilled.

and many more. Interesting perspective when you read it like that.

Let's look at kingdom: Strong's

1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule

a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

b) of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah

c) of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom

2) a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king

3) used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

I'm not sure about the first definition. There is only one kingdom of God isn't there? How appropriate is the Matt scripture to this definition where it speaks of more than one kingdom? I think the better def in this case is 2.

Let's check the word **against**

Strong's:

1) upon, on, at, by, before

2) of position, on, at, by, over, against

3) to, over, on, at, across, against

Hmmm. That didn't help. Look at the concordance and see why and how this word is translated; both the Greek and the Hebrew.

We'll have to rely on context, so considering the previous verse was speaking about wars, it probably safe to say that rising against one another is a hostile act. You might wonder why I'm asking this, but there is a verse here where against means beside one another on the same side.

Zec 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

Let's look at the last part of Matt 24:7

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Strong's famine

1) scarcity of harvest, famine

The same word is also translated dearth

Act 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.
Act 7:12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

Here it is translated hunger;

2Cr 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.

Is there any reason to believe that when Jesus speaks of "famine" that we should take that to mean anything other than a literal lack of food? We see by the Acts scriptures that there was a literal lack of food and throughout that the churches sent relief to each other.

However, there is another type of famine to consider.

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Conversely;

Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD [is] upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
Psa 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

Have to stop for now.

Luv Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

MoJo · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:21 am Post subject:

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

A question occurred to me; what is particularly prophetic about verses 6 & 7? Was there not wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes before Christ came and could not just about anybody predict that these things would continue after Jesus? The only possibility I could come up with was that verses 6 & 7 being a continuation of the thoughts of verse 5, must somehow be connected to verse 5. Certainly, something was going to be different than in the past; otherwise the next verse makes no sense;

Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

All what things? Deceivers, the deceived, wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes in divers places. That these are called a beginning tells us that something has changed and also that it is not the end.

Now this verse might take some discussion because here we must really rightly divide the scriptures given there are two major types of sorrowing

2Cr 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Here then is a comparison made and therefore the death spoken of in verse 10 should not be confused with dying in Christ. But the use of the word death is another study which often causes confusion. Suffice to say it cannot be misunderstood in this verse because opposites are shown in comparison of one another. One brings salvation, the other non-salvation.

Strong's sorrow in Matt

1) the pain of childbirth, travail pain, birth pangs

2) intolerable anguish, in reference to the dire calamities precede the advent of the Messiah

other scriptures where this word sorrow is used;

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains (sorrows) of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Interesting; when Jesus is resurrected is when the sorrow (pains) of death is loosed.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail (sorrow) upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Along with Mark 13:8, these are the only four verses that use this particular word. Notice the word sorrow is intimately connected with literal death of the body as shown in Acts 24 with Christ dying in the flesh.

So do the sorrows of Matt 24 mean the beginning of the pains of death? In connection with 2 Cor, it seems to make a strong argument for that interpretation

A slight correction where I said this particular Greek word sorrows ( Strongs 5604) was only used in 4 verses. In 3 more verses, Strongs 5605 which is from 5604 the word is translated travail and in all 7 cases means particularly related to the pains of childbirth.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Interesting then that in Acts 2 **pains** (sorrows) of death are linked to the similitude of travailing in childbirth

let's look at Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail (sorrow) in birth again until Christ be formed in you.

this is Paul's sorrow concerning the Galatians

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So the Galatians had received the seed (fruit of the womb) through the gospel preached to them by Paul, but this seed was not **forming** as Christ (son in their womb) in them. Therefore, Paul was being made sorrowful again or made to travail again to bring forth children. But more specifically, a man child, Christ in them.

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Now, we have to divide this again because it is evident that everyone travails in childbirth, but not everyone carries this child (Christ) to full formation and deliverance of the child as evidenced by 1 Thess 5:3. IOW, there are miscarriages.

Hsa 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, [is] planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
Hsa 9:14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

So what is Paul saying here; that the whole creation has been pregnant till now, waiting to be delivered, but that Christ came in the fulness of time when the creation was ready to be delivered of her child.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

But here is something very interesting; What is Paul also saying?

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body

the firstfruits that the **we** have being;

1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (of the Spirit) of them that slept.
IOW, the first child - the first son of the spirit. (born of God, born of the Spirit.)

In addition, although Paul is saying that he and his reader have Christ ( that they have brought forth the child ) They are still **waiting** for the adoption., which Paul specifically says is the redemption of the body.

adoption = redemption of the body.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, ( the body) unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. ( redeeming of the body)

Therefore one can be sealed as a son of God, but not yet adopted or redeemed.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So when he shall appear is when our body will be redeemed.

Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

these next scriptures speak of two appearances; past and future

Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness ( a pregnant woman is in heaviness) through manifold temptations:

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So it becomes apparent that right up to the writing of 1 John, that Christ had not appeared this second time and that as the redemption of the body is specifically linked to his appearance, neither had this occurred. And if this had not occurred, they who had the firstfruits (Christ) were still groaning in sorrow waiting for the redemption of the body. And as the pangs (sorrows) of death concerning Jesus are described in Acts as being loosed in his resurrection, redemption of the body and the resurrection are one and the same thing.

IOW, being sealed by the Spirit as a son of God and having the firstfruits (Christ) is not the actual resurrection, but rather the seal of promise of the resurrection.

I would have to think that the phrase "the body" applies to the whole church.

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

MoJo · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:05 am Post subject:

I forgot to point this out which needs consideration.

Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

His first appearance was in this world, teaching how we should live in this present world.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Jesus speaks of two worlds; the present one and the one to come. Which one is Paul speaking of? The present one.

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, **with persecutions;** and in the world to come eternal life.

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Notice in the following verse **when** Jesus says his followers will receive life everlasting; in the world to come!

Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Also Peter touches on this;

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This study of Matt has settled in my mind a number of things 1: being awakened to Christ in this life is not the resurrection and 2: the world to come had not arrived by the writing of 1 Peter and the implication is that it was at least a thousand years distant from the 1st century.

Another note;

Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

This word appearing is translated brightness here;

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So really, this reads "and shall destroy with the appearing of his coming."

So, once again in context of Thess, it had not yet happened, even though these were converts Paul was talking to. And he gave the criteria for this appearing.

Going back to Peter

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, (world to come) wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Keeping in mind these points,
1.that the body is not redeemed (resurrected) till his appearing and
2.that Peter says we look for this new world and his comments concerning 1000 years and
3.that Jesus says this world to come is when we receive life everlasting,
4. Paul's clarification to the Thess that this would not happen till there was a falling away first and
5. that life everlasting is one of the promises and a promise is no longer a promise once fulfilled

So what does this all tell us regarding time? Also, if we take 1 John as written in 90 AD, this world had not passed away yet although was in the process of passing (although this could simply mean all things in this world eventually die)

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. (as opposed to the world to come whereine dwelleth righteousness (2Pet 3:13 )

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

I think your doing well with your observations Mojo. Keep it up. I'm pleased with what your discovering.

Paul

MoJo · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject:

thankyou Paul. Glad to know you're following it.

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

bitterlily · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:35 am Post subject:

Hi Mo,

I was just reading Micah 4 and it might be a useful contribution to your study. The verses that stuck out to me were:

In the Last/Latter days...4:1
The Lame and Afflicted Remnant...4:6-7

and particularly this one:

Be in pain, and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shall you go forth out of the city, and you shall dwell in the field, and you shall go even to Babylon; there shall you be DELIVERED; there the LORD shall REDEEM you from the hand of your enemies. Micah 4:10
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In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

MoJo · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject:

Hi lily. Thanx. I hope to be touching more on the latter days at some point in the study.

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

MoJo · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject:

I'm going to stick a little longer on the sorrows verse as I'm not completely satisfied with why these things are the "beginning" of sorrows.

Let's look at the Luke version;

Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12 **But before all these,** they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

I am trying to find a second witness to the **before all these** as neither the Matt nor the Mark version say this. This would have great significance for the timing of things.

Let's expand on the word sorrows. We know we can go to the following scripture because of the analogy Jesus uses to a travailing woman.

Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Jhn 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Strong's for this word sorrow;

1) sorrow, pain, grief, annoyance, affliction

a) of persons mourning

In addition to that we have the word anguish that Jesus used;

Strong's anguish;

1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure

2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

Anyone who's had a child knows what that feels like LOL!

So these are the things a travailing woman will experience while **in her hour** which incidentally is also called going into labour. So the disciples were going into their hour of sorrow, but notice;

Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, **but the world shall rejoice**: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

Well, one would have to conclude that since Jesus' disciples were the ones who were about to enter into the sorrows of a travailing woman, IOW, bring forth a man child, but the world was not entering into the sorrows of a travailing women; that the world was not about to bring forth the man child.

I want to revisit this;

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains (sorrows) of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also **shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption** into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Given the strong connection to the likeness of a woman giving birth, then the child being held in bondage, corruption and death is likened to the womb. When the child emerges from the womb, it is **delivered** into freedom and the glorious liberty and the pangs cease, being turned into joy. So deliverance is the key issue.

2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

This is the transformation from the bondage of elements of the world as a natural man into a man of the spirit. But you will notice that Paul uses three tenses; delivered, doth deliver and will yet deliver.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of **this** death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Isa 46:3 ¶ Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne [by me] from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
Isa 46:4 And [even] to [your] old age I [am] he; and [even] to hoar hairs will I carry [you]: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver [you].

This sounds to me as if we are carried in the womb of the Lord our entire present life, thus has delivered, does deliver and will deliver makes sense.

Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

a miscarrying womb?

Hsa 9:11 [As for] Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.
Hsa 9:12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, [that there shall] not [be] a man [left]: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!
Hsa 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, [is] planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life (seed, Jesus) abiding in him. (Hos 9:12 woe also to them when I depart from them?)

As to the beginning of sorrows, here is what I think it means;

Jer 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
Deu 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
Deu 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

Jdg 5:2 Praise ye the LORD for the avenging (same word as revenges) of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

Interestingly, these words avenging and revenges are the only two instances of one hebrew word which means leader, commander.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation [that] thou knowest not, and nations [that] knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, **when your obedience is fulfilled.**

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? (Is 46:4 above)
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

bobf · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 177

MoJo · Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:43 am Post subject:

Thanx for the contributions guys. We will try to keep them in mind as we go along. I'm inclined to think the beginning of sorrows spoken of by Jesus is what Peter says; That judgment "began" with the house of God.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

let's look at this;

Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

Strong's weep; just a reminder here that if I use other scripture, it is only scripture which uses the exact same Greek word

1) to mourn, weep, lament

a) weeping as the sign of pain and grief for the thing signified (i.e. for the pain and grief)

b) of those who mourn for the dead

2) to weep for, mourn for, bewail, one

Mar 16:9 ¶ Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mar 16:10 [And] she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and **wept.**

Luk 6:21 Blessed [are ye] that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed [are ye] that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

So this is the reversal spoken of by Jesus in John and as seen in Rev.

Rev 18:9 ¶ And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, (those that rejoice now) shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

The sorrows of each group are vastly different. The disciples are sorrowing over the death of Jesus (a godly sorrowing) whereas the merchants of the earth are sorrowing over the loss of their merchandise (carnal things?)

Strong's lament;
1) to mourn, to lament

a) of singers of dirges, [to wail]

2) to bewail, deplore

let's look a little carefully at this;

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, **the days are coming,** in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Do you see what he is saying? The days **are coming** in which it would be a blessing not to have had children. Why? because there is going to be much sorrow. Not the sorrow of his death, but the sorrow of what is going to be coming upon **them.**

Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say (in the days that are coming) to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, (kill him) what shall be done in the dry?

What is Jesus saying here? You are at the moment a green tree and still they kill and shed innocent blood. How much more evil things will be done when this tree is dried up. Therefore evil will increase ( be multiplied ) and therefore sorrows multipled.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Why is Jerusalem called a green tree?

Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, [and] of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

Eze 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done [it].

See the reversal?

How does a tree stay green? Rain.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Isa 5:1 ¶ Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
Isa 5:3 ¶ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Isa 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; [and] break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
Isa 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds (witnesses) that they rain no rain upon it.

What is rain?

Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Amo 4:7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when [there were] yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, **that [have] no [rain];** there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Paul and Barnabus to the Gentiles

Act 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
Act 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

and this is worth emphasizing speaking of God's goodness even to the wicked and unbelievers;

Act 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

So you see that the 2 witnesses (clouds) were given power to shut up heaven that it rain not righteousness upon whom they choose in the days of their prophecy.

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1Ki 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:

2Ch 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Luk 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

Luk 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow.

Luk 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

MoJo · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 am Post subject:

The other thing I wanted to touch on was this; you know that when a woman is pregnant that she is said to be expecting;

Strongs expecting;

1) to receive, accept

2) to look for, expect, wait for, await

Jam 5:7 ¶ Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth ( in expectation) for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hbr 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Strongs earnest expectation;

1) anxious and persistent expectation

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body

So remember what we learned earlier; adoption = redemption of the body. We are pregnant with hope; pained to be delivered.

so, had the following happened yet?

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Interesting question.

Psa 9:18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall [not] perish for ever.

Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation [is] from him.

Pro 10:28 The hope of the righteous [shall be] gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.

Pro 11:7 When a wicked man dieth, [his] expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust [men] perisheth.

Pro 11:23 The desire of the righteous [is] only good: [but] the expectation of the wicked [is] wrath.

Pro 23:18 For surely there is an end; and thine expectation shall not be cut off.

Pro 24:14 So [shall] the knowledge of wisdom [be] unto thy soul: when thou hast found [it], then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.

In summary, what have we learned;

That we are planted with the seed ( which is Christ in us ) and that he is our hope and that hope is our expectation until we are redeemed (adopted)

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Strong's redemption;

1) a releasing effected by payment of ransom

a) redemption, deliverance

b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance **until the redemption of the purchased possession**, unto the praise of his glory.

When you break it all down it becomes quite clear that although Christ had paid a ransom for us and purchased us, he had yet to possess his purchase and that that would not happen until "the day of redemption" And really, when you think about it, a promise isn't still a promise if it's been fulfilled already.

2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

1Cr 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The word patience is used a lot in the NT and you might want to do a side study on that to further understand what we should be patient about.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

MoJo · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject:

Moving on to the next verse and in this case will include the Mark and Luke account;

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony

the Matt account is fairly straighforward and we know by the NT writings as well as secular history that the disciples as well as Christians in general were afflicted, imprisoned and killed by both Jews and Gentiles.

And so when Jesus says for his names sake, he most certainly means for preaching the gospel in his name. Once again, unless the gospel is no longer being preached in his name and *Christ*ians no longer being afflicted, imprisoned and killed, how can any come to the conclusion that this prophecy has yet reached it's end?

I've heard the argument that Jesus was referring solely to the disciples in order to justify that eveything was fulfilled by 70 AD.

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

However, the last scripture of Mark 13 denies that this was solely for these disciples he was speaking to at that time.

Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you **I say unto all**, Watch.

Jesus spoke to his disciples privately on many occassions and what reasonable person could think his words on these occassions were also not meant for the generations following.

There's not much more to say about the persecutions, so we will turn to this;

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them

Strong's testimony

) testimony

How unhelpful was that. LOL! define testimony as testimony.

However, it says from a presumed derivitive of martys

1) a witness

a) in a legal sense

b) an historical sense

1) one who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest

c) in an ethical sense

1) those who after his example have proved the strength and genuineness of their faith in Christ by undergoing a violent death

translated testimony, witness, record, martyr

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness (testimony) unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luk 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them

Testimony

Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness (testimony) of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified (testimony) in due time.

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness (testimony) against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Basically then, the word testimony is fairly interchangeable with the word witness and is a record of what is witnessed. The above scriptures tell us that these testimonies are being recorded and kept in store with the Lord for some future reference.

These testimonies act in two ways; one testimony, the same event, testifies for two sides. One for and one against as seen by the Mark and Luke scriptures.

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony

The delivering up of Jesus' witnesses to be persecuted for the gospel acts as a testimony in their favor.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

And this very same persecution of his witnesses acts as a testimony against the persecutors.

Just like a trial in which evidence is given.

When will these testimonies or records actually be used.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

It seems very likely that the day of judgment when the records are read is seen here;

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

However, it becomes clear that persecutions and afflictions of the saints are not the only testimony that acts for or against, but that the actual preaching of the gospel (testimony) acts as a witness for or against.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness (testimony) unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luk 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Luk 10:10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
Luk 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

In either case, the receiving or not receiving of the preachers of the gospel, the kingdom of God has come near.

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Mar 6:7 And he called [unto him] the twelve, and began to send them forth **by two and two;** and gave them power over unclean spirits

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

good stuff mojo... Very Happy

...keep up the good work sister... Very Happy

it is a blessing and then some..

Very Happy

bitterlily · Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject:

Hi Mo,

I didn't want to interrupt your flow so thought I'd send this to you by pm and IF you decide it's worth posting, please feel free to do so whenever you see it appropriate.