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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 885
Location: All over the western U.S.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Incorrect. There were two end times spoken of in the NT. If what you are saying is true..... |
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
If what I am saying is true?
Listen to yourself TBax. You will not except the authority of scripture over the rhetoric of the JW organization. The reason for this is obvious. In subtle, and not so subtle ways, faith in God's word has been wrestled away from you.
I have faith in God's word, because I have supreme faith in God.
You, on the other hand, explicitly deny God's word as shown above, and expressly, and supremely place your faith in the JW organization.
Do you see anything wrong with that? Can you see anything wrong with that?
Latter times means latter times. It does not mean some point in history SEVENTEEN HUNDRED YEARS AGO!
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
On this scale from 1 to 21 (as in centuries), what number could we resonably designate as being the number in-which the latter part of this count begins?
TBax, you cannot answer this question, can you?
I know you can't, at this point it would be impossible for you to do so. I would just ask that you roll this around in your mind a bit, and consider this as an example of how the meaning of such a simple concept has been contorted to the point it cannot be applied truthfully to an actual situation. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
You are one blind puppy.
Listen closely.
If what you are saying is true, then the last days, or latter times would include all 2000 plus years from 1 C.E.!
| Dust wrote: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
On this scale from 1 to 21 (as in centuries), what number could we resonably designate as being the number in-which the latter part of this count begins? |
If, as you are understanding it, it was the "last time" in the 1st century, then the latter time would start in the 1st century!!!!!!! 
According to you it would include all 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
So according to your understanding the 4th century is included in the latter times!!!
You are so confused you cannot comprehend what you yourself are writting.  You are saying two different things.
1 The latter times are from 1 C.E. till today.
2. The latter times are the latter part of the latter times. 
| Dust wrote: | | Latter times means latter times. It does not mean some point in history SEVENTEEN HUNDRED YEARS AGO! |
Appearently reading in context isn't important to you.  The 4th century is a latter time, or a subsequent season from the 1st century!!! Sinse you are blind you will not comprehand this. 
P.S. 1 John 2:18 was speaking of the time of the apostles was just about over and unscrupulous men would take over as fortold.
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.
John was the last of the apostles and was old. This last restraint would soon die and the congregation would be oversown with weeds.
Matt 13:25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left.
While men were sleeping could mean the apostles sleeping in death.  The apostles were able to keep the congregation clean. Yet in the last days the wheat would be seperated from among the weeds that have been growing for centuries.
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 885
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hey T,
| I wrote: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
On this scale from 1 to 21 (as in centuries), what number could we resonably designate as being the number in-which the latter part of this count begins? |
I knew you wouldn't be able to answer the question.......as a truthful and reasonable answer would conflict with what the organization is telling you. I don't expect you to answer, I know at this time you can't.
I just ask that you think long and hard as to why you can't answer the question plainly, simply, and honestly.
Im not a Dispensationalist per'se, but the last time as spoken of by John refers to the dispensation of time that began at the birth, death, or resurrection of Jesus. The latter times, as expressly, and biblically declared by the Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 4, refers to just that......the latter portion of the the last dispensation of time.
I'll provide a reasonable answer to the question I asked.....
| I wrote: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
On this scale from 1 to 21 (as in centuries), what number could we resonably designate as being the number in-which the latter part of this count begins? |
dust's answer: 18.
If we were toward the end of the 21st century, I would opt for 19, however we have barely begun the 21st century, so at this time 18 seems more reasonable.
Someone else might go back as far as 11 which is reasonable, as well.
At any rate, what the scale makes obvious is that the 4th century is not the latter part of the scale, which you have tried to asert.
It's just that simple....for me. On the other hand for you to answer the question, plainly, simply, and honestly, is a bit more complicated, as you would be faced with an agonizing decision......To continue in your JW belief at the expense of intellectual honesty, or to see JW teaching for what it really is. Hmmm.....wow, I sense how difficult this would be for you, but really I probably only sense the tip of the ice berg, so-to-speak.
Just think about it......latter times......some have left the established faith...... you recognize the departure from the faith of other organizations that sprung at the same time as the JW's, here in these latter times. The JW's left the sanctity of the KJV in favor of their own version here in these latter times.....I mean, you talk about leaving the faith.....JW's are a prime example. Text book even. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
I knew you would not understand how you are confused. Why answer the question of the man who provided the premise (although false) that proved himself wrong???
| Dust wrote: | | The bible makes it clear that the end times is the period of time, in the entire history of the world, that started with the birth of Jesus, and thus every year from 1 AD till the present is biblically understood to be the end time or end times. |
You are using the term "latter times" to describe the "end times" we are in. You then show you believe the end times are from 1 C.E. to present time. Therefore, the "latter times" would include 1 C.E. all the way till now.
You think you are proving something, and you are. You are proving you don't have a clue.
If I say: "In latter seasons I will plant peas", does that mean I will plant peas in the just during the LAST SEASON of the year, winter??? NO!!!!!!!!
If I say: "In latter times I will graduate college", does that mean I will graduate near the end of my life? NO!!!!
Now if Paul says:"In latter times some will fall away from the faith", does that mean only at the end of this system of things will some fall away? NO!!!!
If Paul wrote that in 1 C.E. when could "latter times" start according to your chart?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
It would be from 2 on. That means it could include 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
Those are all "latter times" from the time of that writting!!!
I don't know why I bother, as I am pretty sure you still won't get it. 
| Dust wrote: | | The JW's left the sanctity of the KJV in favor of their own version here in these latter times.....I mean, you talk about leaving the faith.....JW's are a prime example. Text book even. |
Because you cannot comprehend what "latter times" means therefore JW's have left the faith???
If lacking understanding of words is "faith" then indeed we have left that. You have not. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 885
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
On this scale from 1 to 21 (as in centuries), what number could we resonably designate as being the number in-which the latter part of this count begins?
| TBax wrote: | | It would be from 2 on. |
Also...
| TBax wrote: | | you cannot comprehend what "latter times" means |
Ok TBax, If I were to write.....
> I am urging you not to teach an alternate doctrine, from that which we find in the KJV, nor to give importance to or occupy yourself with fables and stories, which foster and promote useless speculations and questionings (such as JW predictions which did not come to pass). My object/purpose for this urging is love, which springs from my heart and my good conscience and sincere/unfeigned faith.
The problem is certain individuals have missed the mark on this very matter and have wandered away into vain arguments and purposeless talk. They are ambitious to provide thier own intrepretation of God's word, but they have no understanding either of the words and terms they use or of the subjects about which they make such dogmatic assertions.
Now I recognize and know God's word (the Bible) is good if anyone uses it properly and for the purpose for which it was designed. Knowing and understanding that the law contained within the word is not enacted for the righteous, but rather for the unrighteous.
So I implore you to hold fast to God's-word/the-faith having a good and clear conscience. Some who have ignored their conscience have made a shipwreck of their faith.
Properly done, it is a good work to be an teacher of God's word. Such a one is able to be tried, investigated and proved. But beware, the Holy Spirit warns that in the latter times some of these will leave the faith, giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits. As I have said refuse and avoid profane and impure and godless fictions and those who would predict things which do not come to pass, and express your disapproval of such. <
.....Now, in the above letter the contextual use of the term 'latter times' has a future connotation that could take place at any time in the near or distant future. At the time of the writing, whether the Holy Spirits warning is for the near future, or distant future is undeterminable. HOWEVER, 2000 years after the letter is written, by the simple use of common sense we can reasonably discern, that in the context of the letter AND in the context of 2000 years of history, the HOLY SPIRIT's warning is for the period of history we are currently in (now) or possibly some future period of history, but we know for sure that He is not referring to any time during the first 1000 years, as the first 1000 years cannot be construed as being the latter portion or the latter times of a 2000 year period.
It's that simple. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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This is a hit and run 
Absolutely disagree with you, dust. The latter times started in the first century. Both Peter and John speak of those who have been seduced away from the faith.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
| TBax wrote: | | don't know why I bother, as I am pretty sure you still won't get it. |
I was right.
First of all,"the" latter time is improper as the original greek doesn't use the definite article there. Second, "latter times" has a different meaning when talking about the future as opposed to the past.
EXAMPLE:
FUTURE:
Latter time from 1 C.E. could be 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
PAST:
Latter time from 21 C.E. would include 20.
You are confused beyond belief. It's that simple.
The holy spirit revealed that "in subsequent seasons some would fall away from the faith". It then clearly identified the fruitage of these ones that have the teachings of demons that the some would follow. You shut your eyes to the truth because yu set up a house of cards in which you need to be right in order for it to stand. You are not right.
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 885
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
I know that your rational seems right to you....but consider this.....What I have told you needs no twisting of biblical verbage, no substitution of biblical words. I am not attempting to align/fit biblical concepts with outside organizational concepts that I have been taught.
In all truthfulness I can say we are currently in the 'latter times' as expressly referenced by the Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 4. I have demonstrated on a 2000 year scale what is latter times, and what is not latter times. I have shown how groups such as the Mormons, Christadelphians, and JW's have all been established here in the 'latter times'. Each of these groups clearly represent and teach a departure from the established faith. Specifically the JW's have claimed a position of sole religious authority. From that position they have officially predicted things which did not come to pass.
In your last posting you have once again attempted to change biblical verbage and therefore meaning.
I say....NO SALE! I'm not buying it! I will take the bible for what it ACTUALLY says. I will then factor in 2000 years of history, and the signs of the times. Then, in love, and prayer, I will make a fair and honest assessment. If I am under a delusion, then these are the simple factors that have led to that delusion.
Not only is it evident that the Holy Spirit, in 1 Timothy 4, refers to the depature from the established faith as I have identified above, 2 Thessalonians 2 identifies what the JW's are teaching, and what that means, in exact terms.....
1BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
2Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
This is exactly the JW method of operation. To keep folks unsettled and disturbed and excited and alarmed....by no less than....PRETENDED REVELATION! The JW's insist the Lord has already arrived in 1914!
But I realize one has to have faith in the Lords untwisted word in order to see the truth there-in contained. The JW's faith has been deceptively shifted from God and His word (the established faith) to faith in themselves.
I find it difficult, given all the evidence, how one could choose to put faith in the JW organization, but then again as it is written......
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false
How can I possibly reverse what God has sent....I can't! All I can do is sow seed and water. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
In all truthfulness I can say you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.
You can protest, and make you silly baseless claims, but understanding what a word means has nothing to do with an organizations influence. You have done this before with "logos". You act as though a common word used in the Bible means something different then what the word actually means and how it was commonly used by people. "Latter times" in the KJV is a bit archaic, yet not objectionable as a translation of "in subsequent seasons".
| Dust wrote: | In your last posting you have once again attempted to change biblical verbage and therefore meaning.
I say....NO SALE! I'm not buying it! |
Well the wonderful thing is you don't have to. You can remain in the ignorant condition you created for yourself.
Again, the ironic thing here is you quote 2 Thes 2:11 when it applies directly to what you are currently doing regarding "latter times".
2 Thes 2:11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
Also, you not understanding that Revelation has relevance to our time is another lie you choose to believe.
Rant and rave all you want Dust. Your evident confusion proves what your teaching are.
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 885
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | In all truthfulness I can say you don't have a clue about what you are talking about |
Oh, I do not know what I am talking about because I directly equate the term 'latter times' with a period of time/times that have occured at or near the end of the last 2000 years.
Well, I guess the Amplified Bible scholars are clueless as well......
| Quote: | Genesis 49:1 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
Genesis 49
1AND JACOB called for his sons and said, Gather yourselves together [around me], that I may tell you what shall befall you [a]in the latter or last days. |
It seems these Amplified Bible folks equate the term 'latter' with a period of time occurring at or towards the end as well. Clueless perhaps?
The folks at Thesuarus.com must be clueless too....
| Quote: | Main Entry: latter
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: latest
Synonyms: closing, concluding, eventual, final, following, hindmost, lag, last, last-mentioned, later, modern, rearmost, recent, second, terminal |
Actually these folks do know what they are talking about, and it's by simplicity, common sense, and a non-twisting of the word that I reach the same conclusion.
For you to maintain your stance you must change the verbage of the bible (and therefore the meaning). You equate the term 'latter' with the term 'subsequent'. Sorry but 'subsequent' does not appear in the list of synonyms for latter....in fact here is the list of synonyms for your replacement term......
| Quote: | Main Entry: subsequent
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: after
Synonyms: consecutive, consequent, consequential, ensuing, following, later, next, posterior, postliminary, proximate, resultant, resulting, sequent, sequential, serial, subsequential, succeeding, successional, successive |
'latter' is NOT listed as a synonym of subsequent. What's going on?.
By simple common sense one can clearly determine the difference between 'latter times' and 'subsequent times'.....They mean two DIFFERENT things.
| TBax wrote: | | You have done this before with "logos". |
Ahhh.....this actually hurts a little bit. I had hoped that pointing out that the term 'logos' had/has a real meaning beyond that of an empty title would have positively impacted you.....but you've dashed that hope....well not really....there's still hope. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | It seems these Amplified Bible folks equate the term 'latter' with a period of time occurring at or towards the end as well. Clueless perhaps? |
(Genesis 49:1) Later on Jacob called his sons and said: “Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days.
Did you actually read the context. It isn't speaking about the days you are talking about. Plus that was in Hebrew not Greek. The literal translation there is "in-hereafter-of the-days".
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LITERAL 1 Tim 4:1 THE YET spirit explicitly IS-sayING that IN subsequent SEASONS (eras) shall-be-withdrawing some OF-THE faith giving-heed to-spirits deceiving AND to-TEACHings of-demons
Merriam Websters
latter-1 a: belonging to a subsequent time or period
Following is amongst the synonyms for latter!
Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus
Main Entry: following
Synonyms: afterward, afterwards, attendant, back, coming, coming after, coming next, consecutive, consequent, consequential, directly after, ensuing, henceforth, hinder, in pursuit, later, later on, latter, next, next off*, posterior, presently, proximate, pursuing, rear, resulting, sequent, sequential, serial, seriate, specified, subsequent, succeeding, successive, supervenient, then, trailing, when
Nice attempt. But sorry, wrong again. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 885
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | It isn't speaking about the days you are talking about. |
Oh my word....The point TBax, is the term 'latter' is used in the same manner as I use it.....meaning the final part of a period of time.
UNBELIEVABLE that you missed that!
I now question if you are truely deceived, or purposely misleading. Maybe it's a combo of both.
| Quote: | Merriam Websters
latter-1 a: belonging to a subsequent time or period |
Don't be confused by this entry, this is not what 1 Timothy 4 is talking about. This definition of 'latter' is for the form/meaning of 'latter' that would be used in conjuction with the term 'former'.....as in former vs. latter.....whereas latter is subsequent to former.
'Latter' does not mean 'subsequent'!
By simple common sense one can clearly determine the difference between 'latter times' and 'subsequent times'.....They mean two DIFFERENT things. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
Just because "latter" can mean "last" doesn't change anything. Latter or last wasn't the Greek word used. A word meaning subsequent was used. Latter can mean subsequent.
UNBELIEVABLE that you missed that!
I now question if you are truly deceived, or purposely misleading. Maybe it's a combo of both.
You are sooooo confused it is beyond belief.
| Dust wrote: | | Don't be confused by this entry, this is not what 1 Timothy 4 is talking about. This definition of 'latter' is for the form/meaning of 'latter' that would be used in conjuction with the term 'former' |
Yes. Let's not be confused by what the word "latter" can mean. Because Dust has to be right.
The structure of that sentence (even the translated sentence), and the greek words used do not indicate your conclusion. If it said "the latter part of ...", or even if the original language included the definite article then you would have a leg to stand on. Currently you have none.
This has become a joke. Yet your ignorance isn't funny, and seems to be self willed.
It has to mean what you said because you need it to mean what you said otherwise your house of cards falls. You were the one who encouraged intellectual honestly, yet you are the one who refuses to use it. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 885
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
Do you ever stop to think. Probably not. I don't imagine that deep thought is your friend. It wouldn't really mesh with remaining where you are.
| TBax wrote: | Following is amongst the synonyms for latter!
Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus
Main Entry: following
Synonyms: afterward, afterwards, attendant, back, coming, coming after, coming next, consecutive, consequent, consequential, directly after, ensuing, henceforth, hinder, in pursuit, later, later on, latter, next, next off*, posterior, presently, proximate, pursuing, rear, resulting, sequent, sequential, serial, seriate, specified, subsequent, succeeding, successive, supervenient, then, trailing, when |
We are talking about the term 'latter' not the word 'following' which then leads to the synonym 'subsequent'.
You've provided a prime example of the-JW/your-own willingness to convolute the word of God until it fits what you want it to say.
You simply do not have faith in the word of God as it is written (the Bible).
Without faith in God's word you are lost......like a ship without a rudder.
Slow down. Think. Meditate even.
Understand that we are currently in the 'latter times', the very times that we are biblically warned about. Understand that the JW's, Mormons, and Christadelpians are prime examples of those/organizations who have left the established faith, and prime examples of false teachers, not to mention false prophets!
It's that plain. It's that simple!
P.S. Quit parroting me. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
Intellectual honesty is not something you practice, as is shown by your limiting the meaning of "latter" to only what you choose to believe.
| Dust wrote: | Slow down. Think. Meditate even.
Understand that we are currently in the 'latter times' |
Slow down. Think. Meditate even. Consider perspective.
When did Paul write his letter to Timothy? A subsequent (latter) time to that writting could include the 4th century, where coincidentally the direct application of that scripture can be seen.
| Dust wrote: | | P.S. Quit parroting me. |
Then quite being ironic.
Do you ever stop to think. Probably not. I don't imagine that deep thought is your friend. It wouldn't really mesh with remaining where you are. Your attempts at explanation show that applies directly to you. To see you write this about me is funny. You can pass your silly judgements, but you are not making the least bit of sense, unless it is turned around and applied to you. 
You simply do not have faith in the word of God as it is written (the Bible).
LITERAL 1 Tim 4:1 THE YET spirit explicitly IS-sayING that IN subsequent SEASONS (eras) shall-be-withdrawing some OF-THE faith giving-heed to-spirits deceiving AND to-TEACHings of-demons
Without faith in God's word you are lost......like a ship without a rudder.
In order for me to believe like you I would have to abandon intellectual honesty and limit the meaning of a translated word regardless of context.
Following is synonymous with a meaning of latter. Therefore the synonyms of following are synonymous with that same meaning of latter. You not getting this indicates volumes, and make all your rants ironic (baselessly said of me when applying directly to you)!!!
Merriam Websters
latter-1 a: belonging to a subsequent time or period
You ignoring this indicates volumes as well.
Your closed mind has destroyed intellectual honesty for you.  |
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