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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
| Zathrus wrote: | | This quote from Hebrews does not answer that question at all. It shows that you have no idea what the sin is that the writer of Hebrews was referring to. |
Yes it does answer the question. And I do have an idea of what Paul was talking about.
1 Cor 6:9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.
What happens if a person doesn't what to give up such sins like fornication??????
1 Cor 5:9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
You cannot comprehend what these scriptures say. And this is why you fail to understand me.
James 2:26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Yes it does answer the question. And I do have an idea of what Paul was talking about. |
Let's see if that's so.
Heb 10:
| Quote: | 1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will WE are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? |
Let me point out a few things in this passage that people in what you Witnesses call the system of Babylon, and the Witnesses also, fail to acknowlege. BTW, your rinterpretation of verse 26 as referring to sins of the flesh is once again strikingly similar to that of mainstream Christianity, especially the more legalistic parts of it. Except for a few areas of eschatology and the doctrine of the godhead, you both derive the majority of your teaching from Catholic doctrine.
In verses 1 - 9, the writer (who I do not believe is Paul, unless he somewhat changed his writing style) contrasts the old covenant in which the sacrifices continually reminded Israel of their sinful, separated state before God, and the sacrifices of which could only remove the guilt of sin for a year, with a new and better covenant. If the sacrifices of the law could truly take away sins, truly restore man to right-standing with God, there would have been no need to keep offering them. Man;s sin would have been removed, his separation from God would have been reconciled, and he would be perfect in God's sight. And this truly was God's will, not sacrifices and offerings that would only temporarily make man not guilty. Jesus came to accomplish the will of God - the reconciliation of man and God and the taking away of sin, not for a time, but forever.
Then he states in verse 10 that through the body of Jesus Christ, this has been accomplished. You're fond of capitalizing the word YOU in your NWT quotes. I did you the service of capitalizing the word WE in that verse so it's clear who is being spoken of. Here's what this means:
1.) A believer in Jesus Christ, having his sin taken away once and for all, can never again be guilty of sin.
2.) A believer in Jesus Christ is restored back to God and can never again be separated from Him.
3.) The sins of a believer in Jesus Christ are taken away. That does not mean they are there but God does not look at them. It does not mean they are there and God will consider him guilty if he doesn't ask for forgiveness. It means they are not there. Taken away. Once, for ever.
4.) A believer in Jesus Christ is sanctified not by his works, but by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ.
In verse 11 - 13, the writer again contrasts the office of an earthly high priest in the old testament with that of Jesus Christ. Jesus has power to take away sins. The sacrifices of the old covenant did not.
In verse 14, he concludes that those who are sanctified (remember, verse 10 tells us that's WE) have been perfected forever. Consider what that means for a moment. That means at no point, ever, by any means, can one be unperfected anymore. And it tells us by what means WE are perfected forever. There is no mention of our works. It is by one offering - the offering of Christ's body on the cross.
In verses 15 - 17, the writer tells us that this is according to the words of prophecy, revealed to men of God in the old testament. If they foretold of when God would no longer remeber our sins, it must follow that there would be no need for continued offerings for sins.
Consider what this means!! If a Christian today became guilty of sin by doing something wrong, there would need to be another offering for sin! Do we still offer animals for sin? No! Does Christ need to die again whenever a Christian does something wrong? No! Why? Because the guilt of (what would have been ) their sin is taken away!
Heb 9
| Quote: | | 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. |
The writer continues in chapter 10:19 saying we have the right to enter into the Holiest Place. Why? Because our sin is taken away! All of us are priests and kings, reigning in God's presence, innocent of all sin because of the offering of Jesus Christ.
The writer exhorts his readers in verse 23 to hold fast that belief. He exhorts them in verse 25 to not forsake the assembling together. At church services? NO! That's religious teaching of men! Where? In the Holiest Place! In the presence of God! That's what the writer has been talking about all along.
Now we come to verse 26. Keeping in mind what the writer has been telling his readers up to this point, and keeping in mind that the epistle is addressed to believers who were being tempted to go back to their Jewish old covenant worship because they doubted whether Christ's promise would come true, we can understand the "sin" being spoken of. It's only possible to have sin under the old covenant. Under the new covenant, as the writer has been telling them, our sin is taken away. In order to sin, it is necessary to be under the old covenant. The writer says if his readers were to do this, all that would await them is a fearful expectation of judgement. The fulfillment of the curse of the law.
Lastly, look at verse 29. How would one tread under foot the Son of God but by denying that He is the Savior and instead going back to trusting in one's works to be right with God? How would one count the blood of the covenant that has sanctified us an unholy thing but by returning to a system that relied on the blood of goats and bulls to temporarily remove sins? How would one do despite to the Spirit of Grace but by seeking justification by the works of the law?
This is the sin of verse 26. And mainstream Christianity, and the Witnesses as well, have totally turned it around to mean something entirely opposite what the writer meant. And in doing so, have tormented so many with terrible guilt, making them think God will never receive them back again because of a mistake in the flesh.
Specifically, the sin of verse 26 is going back to the old covenant. Today, the old covenant is gone. No longer there to go back to. Praise God. But the Witnesses and large parts of mainstream Christianity have deceived multitudes by trying to perpetuate aspects of the old covenant into our day. They hold many in bondage to sin-consciousness when the writer of Hebrews says that the worshippers once purged of sin should never have to have conscience of sin again. And so, though the specific sin of verse 26 is no longer possible, save if one were to reinstate the temple and Levitical pristhood and sacrificial system, the Witnesses, along with the many Christian denominational organizations, attempt to perpetuate selected commandments of the old covenant as conditions for justification. They are closer to committing this sin in teaching these things than those who stumble and commit a "sin of the flesh".
Read it for yourself. As you have said, I am just reading the Bible for what it says. |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| T-Bax, I have one more question for you. On what biblically based rationale do the JW's believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
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bart007,
Why move on if the other points aren't resolved? Does this question mean you concede the other points?
To understand the truth you need the same foundation. If your foundation is different you won't understand such details. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
You are one confused puppy.
Jesus provided a better covenant, one that gives a lasting hope.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Lastly, look at verse 29. How would one tread under foot the Son of God |
By treating Jesus sacrifice as ordinary and not able to save us. By our actions showing we do not put faith in Jesus, hence living any way we choose. Our faith is backed up by our works!
According to the mosiac law a man dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant
Indeed, of how much more severe a punishment
if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Those who repent and turn around are forgiven. Those who do not, are not forgiven!!! And that punishment is given by God. (Heb 10:30,31)
Acts 3:19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out,
Plus in Heb 10 it mention how important it is to congregate with our brothers. Do you? Hmmmm. That kind of indicates organization doesn't it? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
You are one confused puppy. |
You determined this without even going to the trouble of reading my post? Remarkable! |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| bart007 wrote: | | T-Bax, I have one more question for you. On what biblically based rationale do the JW's believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel? |
| TBax wrote: | bart007,
Why move on if the other points aren't resolved? Does this question mean you concede the other points?
To understand the truth you need the same foundation. If your foundation is different you won't understand such details. |
For me it's difficult to understand how JW's can conclude that there is no biblical proof of Jesus being deity, and yet at the same time conclude that there is Scriptural evidence that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return.
Hence, bart's question, whether asked for his own understanding or not, highlights something to, at least, consider.
As far as a foundation......Jesus is the foundation which is to be built upon, not Michael.....
1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Michael is cool though. I have no problem with him....at all!
As it is.....the 'Jesus is Michael' teaching of the JW's is built upon shifting sand. Lorri MacGregor, a former JW who now ministers to former JW's, points out the following....
| Quote: | | "Various groups do teach that Jesus Christ is Michael, primarily the Jehovah's Witnesses. First they taught in the Watchtower of November 1879 that 'Michael is not the Son of God', and continued this view into the Watchtower of March 1883, cor-rectly stating that Jesus has 'a nature superior to the angels'. By 1926, in 'The Finished Mystery' Michael was identified as 'the Pope' (of Rome). However, over the years their doctrine has evolved into the teaching that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. The 'Reasoning' book says on page 218, '...the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven...'. What an about-face!" |
Lorri MacGregor's web site - www.mmoutreachinc.com |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
I did indeed read your post. That is how I knew you are confused. Now read my post to see the truth. If you don't believe I read your post does that mean you are saying the same thing I said, and I didn't pick up on that? Or is it you didn't read my post?
Jesus provided a better covenant, one that gives a lasting hope.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Lastly, look at verse 29. How would one tread under foot the Son of God |
By treating Jesus sacrifice as ordinary and not able to save us. By our actions showing we do not put faith in Jesus, hence living any way we choose. Our faith is backed up by our works!
According to the mosiac law a man dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant
Indeed, of how much more severe a punishment
if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Those who repent and turn around are forgiven. Those who do not, are not forgiven!!! And that punishment is given by God. (Heb 10:30,31)
Acts 3:19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out,
Plus in Heb 10 it mention how important it is to congregate with our brothers. Do you? Hmmmm. That kind of indicates organization doesn't it? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
I did indeed read your post. That is how I knew you are confused. Now read my post to see the truth. If you don't believe I read your post does that mean you are saying the same thing I said, and I didn't pick up on that? Or is it you didn't read my post? |
I concluded you didn't read my post because after following the writer's train of thought to show what verse 26 was actually talking about, not to mention verse 25, first thing you did was again lift verse 26 out of context and apply it to sins of the flesh so you could use it as a slogan for you Witness moralizing.
Furthermore, you added that bit about verse 25 being about attending church services, or Kingdom Hall meetings. Another teaching that shows the Witnesses have no great and unique revelation, they teach the same fleshly minded, tired old doctrines of men that have been hanging around Christendom for generations. The only reason Witnesses teach that they are the only ones saved is because that's just another of those tired old teachings of men. That and it's easy to control people by intimidating them with the fear of eternal damnation.
| TBax wrote: | | Hmmmm. That kind of indicates organization doesn't it? |
Verse 25 indicates something far greater and more wonderful than any earthly organization.
And I would add, the chapter from which I quoted disproves entirely the Witness/Catholic teaching of works being required for salvation. When one really follows what the writer is saying, rather than dividing it up into little slogans or reading it through the eyes of the teachings of man that one has been taught, Hebrews 10 teaches powerfully and in no uncertain terms that our righteousness is in Christ alone, is not still in question or hanging in the balance but is total and complete, and where salvation is concerned, our works do not figure into the equation. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
I put those verses in proper context. You were creating an alternate context that suits your teaching. That isn't the context. I explained the proper context.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I didn't read it. Do you think your words are so eliquent that people will read it and blindly follow it? 
| Zathrus wrote: | | Furthermore, you added that bit about verse 25 being about attending church services, or Kingdom Hall meetings. Another teaching that shows the Witnesses have no great and unique revelation |
Meeting with your brothers isn't suppose to be a revelation. The Bible clearly shows it is to be done, yet a few deny this, like you.  The first century Christians did this and encouraged it, we do too. Do you? 
| Zathrus wrote: | | And I would add, the chapter from which I quoted disproves entirely the Witness/Catholic teaching of works being required for salvation. |
Did you??? NO! You deny the truth.
Acts 26:20 ...to the nations I went bringing the message that they should repent and turn to God by doing works that befit repentance.
Perhaps you need to go back in time and tell Paul he is wrong as well.
Here are a few more that show we need to try.
Eph 4:22 that YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; 23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.
Hmmm. Kind of goes along with:
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Col 3:5 Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. 7 In those very things YOU, too, once walked when YOU used to live in them. 8 But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. 9 Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, 10 and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it,
Heb 13:16 Moreover, do not forget the doing of good and the sharing of things with others, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
Phil 2:12 Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that YOU have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 12: 28 Wherefore, seeing that we are to receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us continue to have undeserved kindness, through which we may acceptably render God sacred service with godly fear and awe. 29 For our God is also a consuming fire.
Now it is your turn to say I took all these out of context. 
To follow such scriptures in Zathrus' mind is following men. So be it!!! Men inspired of God as found in the Bible. The question is, why do you deny these scriptural thoughts???
You are indeed fighting against Jehovah's Witnesses, and the first century Christians as well. 
Salvation isn't automatic. Great effort is required on our part. 
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able, |
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