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Has the Law of Moses been Abolished?


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remnant
Not So Newbie



Joined: 30 May 2007

Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Israelites/Jews missed out on the first visitation of the Lord because their expectation when the Messaiah has come will restore the Davidic kingdom,liberate them from their enemies, etc. So too the people in this present time missing out on the fulfillment of the Law because they are waiting for heaven and earth to pass away, failing to see that the Law was fulfilled on His death and resurrection (Jn 19:30). The Law is now written in our heart. We are now to abide in the Lord and His Words to abide in us by the Holy Spirit He promised, and with His Spirit in us, manifesting in loving one another as the Lord have loved us. This is His desire or His will which He had been reiterating again and again in the Bible. He wants us to be a loving, caring, sharing servants of His by His Spirit in us. Our worship and obedience to God much freer and spontaneous fulfilling the prophesy of Jeremiah (Jer 31:31-34).
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Pete
Grizzly Bear



Joined: 31 May 2006

Posts: 744

Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RevJP wrote:
From a rather simplistic view of things let me ask:

How can one reconcile the fact that we are saved by Grace through faith, with the idea that we are still somehow subject to the dictates of OT law? Doesn't compulsory obedience to a set of rules by definition contradict salvation by Grace through Faith?



Ephesians 1:17… that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, might grant you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation for an understanding of Himself,

Chapter 2; 8; For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves; it is God’s gift.

Verse 14: For he is our peace. Breaking down the barrier that separated Jews and Gentiles he united the two sections. By His own human nature He brought the hostility to an end, V.15; by ABOLISHING THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS WITH ITS REGULATIONS, so that in Himself He might create the two into one new person and thus make peace, V.16; and through the cross reconcile them both in one body to God, bringing the hostility to an end by the cross.

It follows that if one insists on keeping the law, he is in essence denying Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
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Dakryn
Tadpole



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 25


PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what it comes down to. Almost all the scripture supporting obeying the instruction of YHWH (which is perfect {see the multiple Psalms on this} and :2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.) was not written by Paul. Almost every scripture quote used to excuse doing your own thing in the name of "spiritual freedom" comes from Paul's writings, which we already know from Peter should be regarded like :

Quote:
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.

So I would argue that instead of disagreeing with the rest of scripture, for the sake of your own conscience you are taking Paul's writings as you wish them to be, and he actually does not mean what you would say he means( due to scriptures such as:
Quote:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.


HOWEVER, for sake of argument, lets assume that everyone claiming they have no responsibility to obey YHWH/Jesus is correct in their interpretation of Paul's writings. This would put Paul's writing's in DIRECT contradiction of everything YHWH ever said to or through any of His prophets or leaders, everything Jesus said, and also the writings of the other apostles, which places him squarely in the position of an apostate and false teacher.
When the Millennial kingdom is established, what law do you think is going to be universal? Well it's in scripture. Here's an example of potential disobediance and the following punishment:

Quote:
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso of all the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither shall it be upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLY UNTO JEHOVAH; and the pots in Jehovah's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil therein: and in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.
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Pete
Grizzly Bear



Joined: 31 May 2006

Posts: 744

Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dakryn wrote:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.



Romans 3:31 has to be understood in light of what precedes it: Verse 20; “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. V.21; But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”

Verse 27: “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. V.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

It follows that the Jews with all their law keeping, including the ten commandments, were no better than the Gentiles. Their legalistic law keeping was all superficial, but genuine faith in Jesus Christ results in an indwelling of his Spirit and true justification in God's eyes.
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JB
Pit Bull



Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 366


PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,
Sometimes I think that the law of love is more difficult than the law of Moses. What are your feeling on that? The royal law is to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and to love thy neighbor as thyself. That ain't no picnic.

The Bible is truth.
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Silver Surfer
King Kong



Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2424

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JB wrote:
Pete,
Sometimes I think that the law of love is more difficult than the law of Moses. What are your feeling on that? The royal law is to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and to love thy neighbor as thyself. That ain't no picnic.

The Bible is truth.
May I answer that ?

Men/women has not the right conception of what Love really is.
Therefore God defined it in the 10 commandments.

The 1st 4 commandments are our love for God.
(Exodus 20:3-11)

The Last 6 commandments are our love for our fellow man/woman (Exodus 20:12-17).

When Jesus Christ said to keep the commandments, HE also used the word love, in the very same statement........
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
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remnant
Not So Newbie



Joined: 30 May 2007

Posts: 9


PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 13:13) as much as it is the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22-23). And one can access the Holy Spirit or avail the Holy Spirit only through FAITH in Jesus (John 14:15-16; 16:7,13). If that faith is not bearing the fruit of the Spirit nor the gifts of the Spirit, that faith is dead. So, if one's faith is not manifesting as evidenced through works of faith - unconstrained good works or loving one another as the Lord have loved us (James 2:14-16; John 15:12) - one's faith is just a thought process, deluding oneself.
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Vibrate
Little Hamster



Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77


PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Music Reply with quote

When you listen to music that catches you, you can clap or move to the rhythm. The music has to go inside you, and you will then move with it, because you are joined with the music. But if you try to move to the rhythm without the music first coming inside of you and being a part of you, it will be impossible.
Dancing is about love. The essence is in the love, and the expression of it is moving with the beat. Some people try to do it from the outside, in, instead of from the inside out. These people can't dance. They don't do it right.

If you're good at some game, you'll know what I'm talking about - ever been in the zone? It's the same principle. When MJ shoots a jumper there are rules of physics that govern whether or not he will score. But even though you might know more physics than MJ, he will burn you on the court, because basketball is at essence about love, and rhythm. The physical element of basketball is just the manifestation.

Same thing with the law. No need to think about it, really. Just do your thing, and live right, with love and faith, and the law will sort itself out. If you try living by thinking about the law, it means that you're not keeping your mind on the rhythm inside your heart. You just cannot serve two masters at the same time, and you'll end of hating one of them. Ever lost the beat when you were dancing? It's because you lost focus. But God is so good that the beat is always there, even when you miss a step you find yourself doing a different step - a nicer one that you couldn't think up yourself. Any witnesses for that?

One thing I know is that the truth is on the inside, and error always tries to rule from the outside. Everything in life is the same in this sense, that once you live by faith it will go right - seek first the kingdom of God, and second and third too. And fourth. Then seek it some more if you still find yourself counting. Life is not about counting (1,2,3, a,b,c). Leave that for the accountants and pharisees. They love to measure and just miss the whole boat. Pure folly!
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