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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: What ever happened to Java Man? |
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I'm over 50 years old and have been aware of the evolution doctrine since I was a boy in the 1960s. If we were to go back to the 70s and you told me "you didn't believe in evoluion", I'd have said "you must really be stupid, or something, they got evidence that man came from apes".
One of the "facts" I recall so well was "Java Man". I can still remember that photograph of a bust of Java Man (made by an artist) that appeared in the World Book Enyclopedia. Evidence du jour. In high school we sometimes made jokes about it: "hey, don't that dude look like Java man?" But seriously, Java man was presented to us kids back then as evidence that man came from apes. It was in the encyclopedia, not Mad Magazine.
I never seriously questioned evolution till about the early 1980s. In the mid 1990s I read "Shattering the Myths Darwinism" by Richard Milton. In chapter 18 Milton documents the rise and fall of Java Man. When I first read that chapter I said to myself "hey, Java man! Ain't seen him for awhile. Whatever happened to ole Java man?" Well here's the story:
In 1868 Ernst Haeckel predicted that a speechless ape-man, pithecanthropus, would be found somewhere between Madagascar and Indonesia. Then in 1887 a Dutch anatomist, Eugene Dubois, set sail for the Dutch colony of Java to search for Pithecanthropus. Dubois was given convict workers to do the excavations. Dubois didn't do any digging and didn't record the exact locations of the digs. The convicts simpy delivered about 10,000 cubic meters of sediments to his house in Java where he sifted through and found a tooth, a piece of skullcap, and a leg bone. Dubois had discovered Pithecanthropus erectus, upright ape-man, more commonly known as "Java Man".
Needless to say, Java Man is no longer considered evidence for evolution. But it was for nearly a century. And for some in my age group it was part of growing up. It was in our World Book Encyclopedia at a time, here in the USA, when Gunsmoke was still on prime time and 57 chevys were still a common site on the roads. Like Beatlemania, it was a trend that came and went.
Farewell Java Man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Re: What ever happened to Java Man? |
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| rufus wrote: |
I never seriously questioned evolution till about the early 1980s. In the mid 1990s I read "Shattering the Myths Darwinism" by Richard Milton. In chapter 18 Milton documents the rise and fall of Java Man. When I first read that chapter I said to myself "hey, Java man! Ain't seen him for awhile. Whatever happened to ole Java man?" Well here's the story:
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Why would you put your bets on that unscientific book? First of all, Milton was an engineer, and NOT a scientist of any kind, least of all one in the biologies.
If you don't go to your car mechanic to get your teeth cleaned, then why would you go to an engineer to get 'facts' about evolution?
Here is a review of Milton's book. His work is complete garbage:
http://skepdic.com/refuge/altscience.html
Seriously, why don't you get your scientific information from *scientists*? No wonder you're making such a big mistake and denying evolution. You've been listening to the completely wrong people!
| rufus wrote: |
Needless to say, Java Man is no longer considered evidence for evolution. |
This is false. Java Man is no longer considered to be one of our ancestors, but is DEFINITELY still an excellent example for evolution.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Re: What ever happened to Java Man? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
First of all, Milton was an engineer, and NOT a scientist of any kind, least of all one in the biologies. |
One of the biologies? You mean people like Michael Behe, author of "Edge of Evoution", who has a Ph.D. in Biology, or Jonathan Wells, author of "Icons of Evolution", who also has a Ph.D. in biology? Is that what you mean?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Here is a review of Milton's book. His work is complete garbage:
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Plenty of reviews on Amazon.com, both pro and con. Since I have my own personal copy of "Shattering the Myths of Darwinism", and have read it and find it to be one of the best on the subject of "Evolution (Biology) - Philosophy", why should I be swayed by an unfavorable review? Besides, I can write my own book review! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: Re: What ever happened to Java Man? |
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| rufus wrote: |
One of the biologies? You mean people like Michael Behe, author of "Edge of Evoution", who has a Ph.D. in Biology, or Jonathan Wells, author of "Icons of Evolution", who also has a Ph.D. in biology? Is that what you mean?
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For every proponent of intelligent design who has a legitimate degree in the biologies (and there are like five of them on the planet) there are about 100 who have fake degrees or irrelevant degrees and there are tens of thousands of scientists with legitimate degrees who think that their ideas are unscientific nonsense.
ID is NOT a scientific theory. It's not even in the right ballpark. If you believe in science, then you shouldn't be citing Behe and Wells.
| rufus wrote: |
Plenty of reviews on Amazon.com, both pro and con. Since I have my own personal copy of "Shattering the Myths of Darwinism", and have read it and find it to be one of the best on the subject of "Evolution (Biology) - Philosophy", why should I be swayed by an unfavorable review? Besides, I can write my own book review! |
Are you qualified to review his book? Because the vast majority of the people who are qualified to review his book think it is garbage.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Anyway, getting back to "Java Man", if I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a coffee brand back in the 1970s that used Java man in their advertising? I think it showed the ape-man thing on the side of the coffee package or in a magazine ad. Or maybe even a TV commercial. You know, because, coffee is called "Java" and there was "Java man" (ape-man), and they put the two together as an advertising gimmick. Does anyone remember that? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: | | Anyway, getting back to "Java Man", if I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a coffee brand back in the 1970s that used Java man in their advertising? I think it showed the ape-man thing on the side of the coffee package or in a magazine ad. Or maybe even a TV commercial. You know, because, coffee is called "Java" and there was "Java man" (ape-man), and they put the two together as an advertising gimmick. Does anyone remember that? |
Interesting scientific argument: A coffee company used Java man for marketing purposes, and therefore evolution is false.
I bet that even the Discovery Institute wouldn't publish that one, although I could be wrong.
Rufus, you're not a scientist, are you?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | rufus wrote: | | Anyway, getting back to "Java Man", if I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a coffee brand back in the 1970s that used Java man in their advertising? I think it showed the ape-man thing on the side of the coffee package or in a magazine ad. Or maybe even a TV commercial. You know, because, coffee is called "Java" and there was "Java man" (ape-man), and they put the two together as an advertising gimmick. Does anyone remember that? |
Interesting scientific argument: A coffee company used Java man for marketing purposes, and therefore evolution is false.
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P1234567890, I don't know what you do for a living, or what your educational level is. Any person with common sense can percieve that my last post was not meant to be a "scientific argument". Even the opening post, while addressing something of a fraud in science (Java man being not much more credible than Piltdown man) was meant to show how evolution was part of the culture. We saw Java man in our encyclopedia not long before we saw the Planet of the Apes movies, but not until after we saw ape-men on the cover of National Geographic Magazine while waiting in the dentist office. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6281
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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It was a great redirection from the direction the discussion was going, though!
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
P1234567890, I don't know what you do for a living, or what your educational level is.
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I'm a grad student finishing my Ph.D.
| rufus wrote: |
Any person with common sense can percieve that my last post was not meant to be a "scientific argument".
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I know. It was meant to be an attack on evolution using wit and 'irony'. Unfortunately, that is not a legitimate argument against evolution.
The only legitimate arguments concerning issues of science are scientific arguments.
| rufus wrote: |
Even the opening post, while addressing something of a fraud in science (Java man being not much more credible than Piltdown man) |
Why would you say this? As far as I know, there is no fraud alleged in the Java man case.
| rufus wrote: |
was meant to show how evolution was part of the culture. We saw Java man in our encyclopedia not long before we saw the Planet of the Apes movies, but not until after we saw ape-men on the cover of National Geographic Magazine while waiting in the dentist office. |
So? Lots of science has become part of our culture. That doesn't make the science wrong.
Evolution is a widely-accepted scientific theory. Never once has anyone performed an experiment which falsifies it.
Note that this cannot be said of Biblical creationism. We have performed experiments showing that things did not happen the way the Bible say they did.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
.......
Evolution is a widely-accepted scientific theory.
Never once has anyone performed an experiment which falsifies[atoz' bold] it.
...
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Atoz: Really?
"Micromutations do occur,
but
the theory that these alone can account for evolutionary change
is either falsified,
or else it is an unfalsifiable,
hence metaphysical theory.
I suppose that nobody will deny that it is a great misfortune if an entire branch of science becomes addicted to a false theory.
But this is what has happened in biology: ...
I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest deceit in the history of science. When this happens many people will pose the question: How did this ever happen?"
(S Lovtrup, Darwinism: The Refutation of a Myth (London:Croom Helm, p.422))
'We have no acceptable theory of evolution at the present time.
There is none;
and I cannot accept the theory that I teach to my students each year.
Let me explain.
I teach the synthetic theory known as the neo-Darwinian one, for one reason only;
not because it's good,
we know it is bad,
but because there isn't any other.
Whilst waiting to find something better you are taught something which is known to be inexact, which is a first approximation. . .'
Professor Jerome Lejeune: From a French recording of internationally recognized geneticist, Professor Jerome Lejeune, at a lecture given in Paris on March 17, 1985. Translated by Peter Wilders of Monaco.
In Ever True Love
for the false and the true,
for the teachers and students,
for the falsifiable and the unfalsifiable,
for the deceivable and the undeceivable,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
"Micromutations do occur,
but
the theory that these alone can account for evolutionary change
is either falsified,
or else it is an unfalsifiable,
hence metaphysical theory. |
It is completely falsifiable.
If a woman who lost an arm in an accident gave birth to a baby with only one arm, and this happened again and again with all amputees, then that would falsify the whole 'descent with modification' paradigm.
If we found tons of human fossils below the K-T boundary, then that would falsify Darwin's theories.
There are plenty of ways you could imagine them being falsified. They are certainly not unfalsifiable!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
...
It is completely falsifiable.
.....
There are plenty of ways you could imagine them being falsified. They are certainly not unfalsifiable! |
atoz: Ooops!
So like RD, overplaying his hand in trying to disprove religion, by saying that Religion is a scientific theory,
you have just also verified creation:
I can imagine innumerable ways of creation being falsified and certainly NOT being unfalsifiable!
qed.
story done!
with Love for creation for which there is endless evidence so far,
with Love for evoultion for which there is no evidence as yet, smile
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
atoz: Ooops!
So like RD, overplaying his hand in trying to disprove religion, by saying that Religion is a scientific theory,
you have just also verified creation:
I can imagine innumerable ways of creation being falsified and certainly NOT being unfalsifiable!
qed.
story done! |
Creationism and religion are not falsifiable, because there is literally nothing I could say, no argument that I could give, which would make you stop believing in them.
If you tell a Young Earth creationist that we know that the universe is 15 billion years old because light from galaxies which are 15 billion light years away has reached us, they just say that god created the light already in transit.
If you tell a creationist that creation can't be true because God would never mess up by putting hind legs on a whale, they just say that the photos were doctored or that they are not legs, but rather for holding on during mating, etc.
If you say that the K-T boundary proves that Biblical creationism is false because there are no human fossils found below it, creationists say that God put the other fossils in the ground in order to test our faith.
Mental backflips aside, they always have an answer because with an omnipotent being on their side, they can say whatever they want to get out of a sticky situation. It is in this sense that religion and creationism are not falsifiable.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
....
Creationism and religion are not falsifiable, because there is literally nothing I could say, no argument that I could give, which would make you stop believing in them.
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atoz: WRONG!
I can easily see or perceive how we cd have come from zilch!
I am just WAAAAAAAAAAY more scientifically mindsetted than you are in terms of verifying as AE and BS and CS wd have done!
Rest later.
GO GIANTS!smile
with revolutionary Love for evolutionists and creationists, for evolution and for creation,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
I am just WAAAAAAAAAAY more scientifically mindsetted than you are
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No, you really aren't.
| atoz wrote: |
in terms of verifying as AE and BS and CS wd have done!
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That's interesting; where do you think Einstein and Sagan sat on the evolution issue? Hint: You can watch Sagan's biochem buddy at Cornell doing a more sophisticated version of the Miller-Urey experiment in Cosmos.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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