 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
|
 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
 |
|
luvnlife,
Anther good question. 
That would be C) An eternal death.
One of the ways we know this is because "the wild beast" with 7 heads and 10 horns which symbolizes human governments is thrown in there. Both "the wild beast and the false prophet" are not literal creatures but symbolize certain parts of Satan's organization on earth. Neither will be back or exist elsewhere. Plus, those not found written in the book of life are thrown in there as well. 
The lake of fire is the same thing as "Gehenna" that Jesus spoke of.
Matt 10: 28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na.
Soul in this instance is any hope for future life through a resurrection.
Jesus used this term "Gehenna" which was the "valley of Hinnom" where there was a garbage fire stoked with sulfur. Criminals bodies were thrown in there and completely destroyed. Such ones weren't considered worthy of rememberence, hence no proper burial. Hence Jesus and John use this in the symbolic sense to show complete destruction, never coming back by God remembering them and resurrecting them.
This condition is also called "the second death". As sinnful humans we all die because of Adam's transgression. Jesus bought the way out of that death if we take advantage of his sacrifice. Those humans who die this second death is not because of inherited sinnfulness but because of willful disobedience.
Was that too much?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
TBax: | Quote: | | During the Millenium Jesus will apply the benefits of his sacrifice to mankind and bring them to perfection. People will be resurrected and learn Jehovah's righteous standards. If people choose to reject those standards God isn't obligated to keep them around. That is probably why some will be "resurrected to judgement". (Acts 24:15 John 5:28,29) |
So will everyone, Hitler, Stalin, Reagan, Dennis Rader, Charles Manson, Judas etc... all be raised up? Will we all be there during the 1,000 year reign or am I missing something?
Luv 
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
TBax: | Quote: | | The lake of fire is the same thing as "Gehenna" that Jesus spoke of. |
The lake of fire is God's eternal judgement and condemnation to eternal death/sleep then, right?
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
luvnlife,
Hi,
| luvnlife wrote: | | So will everyone, Hitler, Stalin, Reagan, Dennis Rader, Charles Manson, Judas etc... all be raised up? |
I don't know such details as God and His Son judge such things. The Bible makes it clear some will not be resurrected.
For instance:
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Matt 23:33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na?
| luvnlife wrote: | | The lake of fire is God's eternal judgement and condemnation to eternal death/sleep then, right? |
Correct.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | | Both "the wild beast and the false prophet" are not literal creatures but symbolize certain parts of Satan's organization on earth. |
Deuteronomy 18:
21 And if you say in your [minds and] hearts, How shall we know which words the Lord has not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or prove true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Does the JW organization claim to speak in the name of the Lord?
Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1919; also Watchtower, May 15, 1933, pp. 154-155; Jul. 15, 1960, pp. 438-439; Our Kingdom Ministry, Sep. 2002, p. 8
wrote: | | The Watchtower Society is the "one and only channel" used by God to continually to dispense truth |
| Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1956, p. 666; Watchtower, Jun. 1, 1955, p. 333, Watchtower, Jul. 1, 1973, p. 402 wrote: | | The Watchtower Society is "directed by Jehovah" and "under the direct supervision of Christ Jesus" and that it "alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or force" |
Has the JW organization spoken words in the name of the Lord which did not come to pass?
1907: Armageddon will culminate in the year 1914. Russell, C.T, The Time is At Hand, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc., 1907 p. 101
1917: In 1918, God would begin to destroy churches "wholesale" and church members by the millions. Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 7, 1917, p. 485.
1922-1923: The resurrection of the dead would occur in 1925. In preparation for the 1925 date, the Watchtower Society acquired a property in California, and built a mansion on it. The property was to house people such as Abraham, Moses, David, and Samuel, whom they thought would be resurrected to life in 1925. Watchtower, May 15, 1922; Sep. 1, 1922; Apr. 1, 1923; Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1925, p. 110
1938: In 1938, Armaggedon was too close for marriage or child bearing. Face the Facts, 1938, pp. 46-50
1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon. Watchtower, Sep. 15, 1941, p. 288
1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us." Watchtower, May 1, 1942, p. 139
1969: Human existence would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years". Young Witnesses were encouraged not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason. Awake!, May 22, 1969, p. 15
1969: Christ's thousand-year reign would begin in 1975. The Approaching Peace of a Thousand Years (1969) (Watchtower publication) There was a considerable amount of related speculation in Watchtower publications in the decade or so leading up to 1975. Awake!, Oct. 8, 1966, pp. 19-20; Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1966, pp. 628-631; May 1, 1967 p. 262; May 1, 1968, p. 271; Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494; Oct. 15, 1974, p. 635; May 1, 1975, p. 285.
1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century. Watchtower, Mar 1, 1984, pp. 18-19
False prophet is a label given to a person who is viewed as illegitimately claiming charismatic authority within a religious group.......
Deuteronomy 18:
21 And if you say in your [minds and] hearts, How shall we know which words the Lord has not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or prove true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
| TBax wrote: | | Both "the wild beast and the false prophet" are not literal creatures but symbolize certain parts of Satan's organization on earth. |
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dust,
Nice try. Dust, do you realize your dated bolded sentences are not quotes, but paraphrased ideas and assumptions from apostate sites? A few accurately reflect what was actually written. Some don't. 
The false prophet in Rev is actually a political entity. "Babylon the great" is the world empire of false religion in Rev. You know, Babylon, like where they had teachings like the trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, ect...
Once again, my brothers are not inspired prophets. 
Regarding Armageddon:
Hab 2:3 For [the] vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true.
My brothers were keeping in expectation of it.
Does it delay, or is it that it appears to delay to the true worshipers.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | | Dust, do you realize your dated bolded sentences are not quotes, but paraphrased ideas and assumptions from apostate sites? A few accurately reflect what was actually written. Many don't. |
Howdy TBax,
Each of those have a reference(s) that can be specifically checked.
As far as paraphrased ideas and assumptions, I suppose one could indeed put a spin on what is actually written in that JW material, but of course, that goes both ways.
| TBax wrote: | | The false prophet in Rev is actually a political entity. |
More accurately......some (apparently) believe the false prophet referenced in the book of Revelation is a political entity.
I've read commentaries identifying 'the beast ' as the political entity/system, with the 'false prophet' identified as being a person with-in that entity/system holding a postion of power.
Anyway, I knew you were talking about the false prophet from the book of Revelation, but the irony and simile of you using the terms 'false prophet', and 'organization' in the same sentence prompted me to post.
| TBax wrote: | | Once again, my brothers are not inspired prophets |
Yes, I know. That's also the point of Deuteronomy 18:21-22.
| TBax wrote: | | My brothers were keeping in expectation of it. |
Well, like you, I don't see anything wrong with that, but in accordance with Deuteronomy 18:21-22, making specific predictions of things that did not come to pass, show that when speaking of these things the organization speaks presumptuously.
I would question why God's "one and only channel", an organization directed by God Himself, and under direct supervision of Jesus, would speak presumptuously about matters of such grave importance.....but apparently that's just me. You on the other hand simply dismiss it as being mistaken. But even-so, when Deuteronomy 18:22 says....'you shall not be afraid of him', that tells us that those speaking presumptuosly, have NO authority what-so-ever, let alone the sort of authority claimed by the JW orgaization.
So your brothers are not insired prophets, and they claim authority that they do not have.....right?
Sorry for the side-track luvnlife.
TBax, it's not necessary for you to respond. This is just really fodder for thought........and perhaps prayer.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dust wrote: | | Each of those have a reference(s) that can be specifically checked. |
Check them. Those apostates sites use lies and half truths. The presence of these apostates is fortold scripturally.
Matt 24: 48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know,
Again, trying to understand the Bible isn't prophesy.
| Dust wrote: | | So your brothers are not insired prophets, and they claim authority that they do not have.....right? |
No. They are not inspired prophets but they are the "faithful and discreet slave" Jesus uses.
Deut 18 is about prophets speaking in Jehovah's name, i.e. "Jehovah has said...Incert new prophesy here". My brothers don't do that.
| Dust wrote: | | I would question why God's "one and only channel", an organization directed by God Himself, and under direct supervision of Jesus, would speak presumptuously about matters of such grave importance |
Perhaps God allows it to keep people awake, or to sift out people serving with a date in mind. Regardless, those aren't prophesies.
"Babylon the great" is the world empire of false religion in Rev. You know, Babylon, like where they had teachings like the trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, ect...
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ahem......
The subject is the Millenium (the 1,000 year reign of Christ), who will be there, what will happen to those who are not there, the purpose of the Millenium etc....
Please... I have asked some questions here that are important to me.
Start another post if you want to argue about other matters related to the JW faith.
Thanks,
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
