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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Joman, your rebuttal is underwhelming in my view. You accept that the bad thing that happened to Joseph was good because it was according to God's purpose, but when I say the same thing, it is Vantastic Van pushing relativism with Vanisms.
Anyway, I will let your last post stand as a monument to nonsense. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 746
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | You accept that the bad thing that happened to Joseph was good because it was according to God's purpose, but when I say the same thing, it is Vantastic Van pushing relativism with Vanisms. |
| Joman wrote: | | When God works all things to the good he may use bad things but, that doesn’t change the nature of the bad thing. The Pharoah was evil but God put him to good use. Notice how it didn’t make the Pharoah a good person? Joseph said, you meant it for evil but God meant it for good. That pronouncement of truth didn’t change the fact that what his brothers did was evil. |
Is this the same thing you said and are saying?
Joman. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeap, the difference is between man's perspective and God's perspective. Form the point of view of the fig tree, or from point of view of the folks that used for their desires or needs, the fig tree, it being cursed was a bad thing. But from God's perspective, the fig tree being used to illustrate what Jesus was teaching, the result was a good thing, meeting God's purpose. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | Yeap, the difference is between man's perspective and God's perspective. Form the point of view of the fig tree, or from point of view of the folks that used for their desires or needs, the fig tree, it being cursed was a bad thing. But from God's perspective, the fig tree being used to illustrate what Jesus was teaching, the result was a good thing, meeting God's purpose |
I had a crystallizing revelation today, which I won't go into the details of because it would take a week, but on this Van I believe you are right on target. What needs to happen then is to extrapolate that into things in our life which have the APPEARANCE of evil. 
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Mojo, Thanks, you have revealed something to me that I had not considered, or had not considered prayerfully. Super observation, looking at things as good and evil not from our perspective, how it impacts us in the here and now, but from the perspective of God.
Again, thanks! |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Did God Curse the Ground? |
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| Van wrote: | Did God curse the ground in Genesis 3:17? God said in effect cursed is the ground because of you, in toil you shall eat of it, both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you, and you will eat the food from it by the sweat of your brow.
So it appears the curse removes Adam from the land, the garden where God had planted trees good for food, such that Adam would have to work to create his own garden and would have to cultivate the ground to remove the weeds and keep after it by the sweat of his brow in order to eat bread from it. So this curse does not seem directed at the whole earth, a radical change in the nature of creation, but simply kicking Adam out of the garden.
Now in Genesis 8:21, Yahweh says in a passage after the flood of Noah, that He will never again curse the ground and destroy every living thing because of man. So God’s judgment against the sins of men resulted in their loss of the benefits of cultivated ground. In one case, the man was removed from the ground, and in another the ground was flooded catastrophically such that every living thing covered by the flood was destroyed including all mankind except for the eight in the Ark.
So, thus far, no compelling evidence has been found to support a radical change in the nature of creation.
In Romans 8:18-25, as translated in the NASB, Paul seems to be saying that creation was cursed, subjected to futility, by God in the hope that creation will be set free from its slavery to corruption. But does that make sense? What if creation was translated creatures, meaning mankind? We were kicked out of the garden, to face sin and corruption and death which sounds like futility. As each generation lives, suffers and dies, until that day when the number of the saved will be reached, our painful existence is like the pains of childbirth, necessary for the birth of all of us, past, present and future who are new creatures in Christ. We look forward to our bodily resurrection where we shed the corruption of our fleshly desires. So we persevere the futility of corrupt mankind as we expectantly look forward to that day. Creation will not be set free, it will be destroyed but a new heaven and a new earth await all those in Christ. Amen
In summary, I have found no compelling evidence that God radically altered creation, introducing pain, suffering and death, because of Adam’s sin and God’s judgment of Adams disobedience. But my search is far from exhaustive, are there other passages that bear on this issue?
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Curses and Blessings were all originally complementary sine qua non parts of creation in Love by God.
Proverbs 16:1-4.
Therefore, when God says that He cursed the ground, He meant that as a way of saying that A&E's Cursed ATtitude of Hate towards negative opposites such as weak ugly and dumb and curses wd make the earth seem AS IF it had been cursed anew by God--when it was thier Cursed attitude of hate for curses, already made, which wd make DOUBLE curses out of those curses, make curses out of blessings!
In effect, God cd have easily said the opposite for those in Love to sound as if he had made something good and new:
Blessed shall the earth be with all its curses!
In fact, in Love everyting old an cursed is new and blessed at the same time!
2 Cor 5:17.
So your summary is perfectly correct!smile
qed.
with the Blessing of Love, The Blessing of Blessings,
which makes blessings out of curses, and double blessings out of blessings, new out of old, newer out of new, and newest out of newer,
atoz |
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