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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1969
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 Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
So what are you saying? The counsel given to the first century congregation was wrong or ineffective? God's counsel in his word shouldn't be followed???  What are you saying? Gross sins weren't understood and avoided by true Christians back then?
Whatever you are saying is directly wrong. 
Do you know what it means to repent and turn around???
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Acts 3:19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah
Just because all are susceptible to fall doen't mean we shouldn't try. And if we do fall, we must pick ourselves up and keep moving ahead. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | Furthermore, I do not see from the verse you quoted how this shows that Paul was saying that anyone who receives "acurate" knowlege and gets caught up in any of those faults was to be excommunicated. In fact, Paul was saying something almost completely opposite. |
It wasn't from that verse, but this one.
1 Cor 5:9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
So what are you saying? The counsel given to the first century congregation was wrong or ineffective? God's counsel in his word shouldn't be followed??? What are you saying? Gross sins weren't understood and avoided by true Christians back then?
Whatever you are saying is directly wrong. |
It's quite telling when you admit you dont understand what I'm saying and then write it off as completely wrong.
What I'm saying is nothing other than what is taught in God's Word. Since your mind is made up, there will be no use explaining it. But you have a Bible of your own.
| TBax wrote: | | Do you know what it means to repent and turn around??? |
Yes. But I suspect that you do not.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | I found this at another site. It appears to contain some insider insight. I found it interesting, so I am reposting it here.....
| Quote: | There are so many reasons why I like being a Jehovahs's Witness.
1. We get to count time when we share our faith with nonbelievers or our young children.
2. We don't have to go to college to get a good job as a janitor or a window washer.
3. We get to celebrate the birth of a child but not the anniversary of the birth.
4. We don't pass a collection plate at our meetings and we get to put in our wills that when we die that our house, CD's, jewelery, life insurance, and cash can go the the Watchtower Society so that our family doesn't have to worry about those things.
5. We don't have to be with our families during the holidays to enjoy each other company and eat the cookies, turkey, ham, pies, and other such food.
6. Because we are the only true Christians on earth, we do not have the problems that other churches have with broken up families, adultery, fornication, pedophiles, over drinking, and gossip.
7. We don't have to worry about giving the poor and needy in our community food, clothing and shelter because we give them the Truth which will enable them to live forever in a paradise earth.
8. We have God speaking to us thru the Faithful and Discreet Slave and thru the Watchtower.
9. We will get to live in Paradise where there will be no cars, TV's, computors, radio's, theaters, washing machines, clothes dryers, refrigerators, stoves, airplanes. electric lights, or malls to buy or clothes.
10. We get to go every year to a summer District Assemly vacation at the same city every year and have a picnic at our seats during the sessions and then stay at the fine hotels that we are told to go to.
11. We know the true meaning of the words soon, near, very soon, very near, so close, just around the corner, shortly, and near future.
12. We don't have to worry about getting old or having a retirement plan.
Now I hope you can begin to understand why I like being a Jehovah's Witness. |
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A very funny satire.
My best friend in High School was a Jehovah Witness, but I never knew it until we graduated. To be with my friend after graduation, I attended their Kingdom Hall for about a year.
They were friendly people, they warmly greet newcomers, I once dropped my wallet at an outdoor event and it was retruned to me, At another event I was underdressed for the cool weather and I was given a nice warm sweatshirt. I tried to return it but they insisted I keep it.
At their meetings, everyone eventually will speak to the whole congregation, including the children. They read definitions from the JW dictionary, or passages from the JW Bible, or share their experience at volunteer work for the the Watchtower Society or going door to door handing out the Awake and Watchtower magazines which most of them paid out of their own pocket and often hand out for free. If I remember correctly, they meet two times a week at their Kingdom Hall.
During the week, besides doing volunteer work or handing out tracks door to door, most of them attended at least one Bible study (mandatory) and others would attend two.
When speaking to Jehovah Witnesses about religion, they all seem to talk as the Watchtower and awake reads, almost verbatim. My friend and I were were great buddies in High School, he was intelligent, easygoing, a quick wit, talked freely about what was on his mind. For three years I never even knew he was a Jehovah Witness. But at the Kingdom Hall, I was shocked that his whole demeanor toward me changed, he talked to me as the Watchtower and Awake reads, almost verbatim.
The central message of the JW's is to never sin, we are to perfect as God is perfect, and to them that means not sinning. If they do sin, they must work harder to not sin. If they keep on sinning after warnings to stop, they are disfellowshipped and their own families must not associate with them anymore.
My friend ended up working at the publishing center in Brooklyn and he gave me a grand tour of those facilities. Lots of young people were there, with living quarters on the premises.
After a year I stopped attending. Because I knew they were a cult. They were very much controlled by the leadership of the Watchtower Society. They did not have free thought, I detected a certain degree of fear. Plus, they were not sinless. Though that is to be expected of everyone, they were living in denial of it or simply saw themselves as failures having not mastered sin yet, an unachievable goal.
As The Apostle John wrote, 'if we say we are not sinners, we are liars, and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, God is faithful to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' This is the difference between the Old and New Covenants: Under The Old Covenant, we were responsible to keep the whole of the Mosaic Law; Under the new Law of the New Covenant, God Keeps us. We are saved not by our works, but by believing Jesus finished work for us on the cross, for He kept the whole Mosaic Law on our behalf, and His blood has washed away all our sins. We are saved by the faith of Jesus.
The Jehovah Witnesses believe only 144,000 of them will go to Heaven. Only members of the 144,000 are allowed to participate in the communion. How does a JW know if they are part of the 144,000? The answer I received was, they would know if the were one. So some took communion and others never did at the Kingdom Hall I attended. Judging on the number who did take it, I'm certain the JW's as a whole have exceeded their 144,000 limit at least ten fold.
All others JW's are callled Jonadabs and they will live on earth in a paradise that God will set up. The JW's do not believe Jesus is God, they believe He is Michael the Arch-Angel.
Whenever I asked JW's theological questions, they give the patent answers they learned from the Watchtower Society. As I delved deeper into what the Bible atually states, they were at a loss to defend their beliefs because the Bible does not support the Watchtower views. They sent to me more informed JW's in their place and they too were stymied by what the Bible actually says. It did not fit with what they were taught as JW's.
I was eventually matched with one of their top theologians. We argued, 'Is Jesus the God or is He Michael the Archangel.' He started by attempting to draw a word pciture using scriptures why Jesus is Michael the ArcAngel. I pointed out that his argument was simply extrapolating a little bit about Michael the ArchAngel and making an unfounded jump in concluding Michael was Jesus.
Then I argued that Jesus was God because Psalm 2 states that God will be sending His Son, Elohim is plural representing God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When I pointed out the Gospel of John, the JW pointed out that even though the Word is Jesus, that it says 'The Word' is 'a god'. I replied, there is no 'a' in my bible; he argued that it was legitimate to include it, and I pointed out that only the JW's interpret that way, then he referred to some obscure commentator of the 18th century that placed the 'a' there.
Then I replied, what is 'a god'?, how many 'a god's' are there?' He then pointed to a scripture where Paul calls Satan 'a god of the system of things [on earth]' I reply 'that is a phrase, an expression with limitations that tells us that Satan has great influence over the movers and shakers of this world and the systems of this world. Are you equating Satan's role in this world with Jesus?' I asked.
Then I took him to John 17-18:
Jn 1:17-18
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him].NASU
That JW Scholar had no answer for this verse. His Bible has 'Only Begotten Son', but the greek word is clearly 'Theos' and not 'Son'. He had no retort to this. He stuttered a bit trying to think of an answer, then got up and left.
There is no way into the Kingdom of God except through Jesus our messiah - the only begotten God, and His sheep know the way.
Last edited by bart007 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:46 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| bart007 wrote: | | they were living in denial of it or simply saw themselves as failures having not mastered sin yet, an unchievable goal. |
That is the exact mentality I have seen in other authoritarian religious groups with a heavy message of sin consciousness. There is deep denial.
The practices you mentioned - excommunications, ostracism of those who fail to live up to moral standards- are common to churches with a heavy message of sin consciousness also. Even ones considered more mainstream or fundamentalist Christian. It's very destructive and dysfunctional.
| bart007 wrote: | | They did not have free thought, I detected a certain degree of fear. |
I've seen this in other authoritarian Christian groups too. There is fear, and freedom of thought is strongly discouraged. It's a very unhealthy environment.
| bart007 wrote: | | Whenever I asked JW's theological question, they give the patent answers they learned from the Watchtower Society. As I delved deeper into the Bible, they were at a loss to defend their beliefs because the Bible does not support the Watchtower views. |
That's been my observation too when I invite them in and we discuss the Bible. They do not know what to do with the Bible passages that aren't taught in their Kingdom Hall meetings, which contradict their teachings. They don't know what to do with an understanding of the Bible that holds together, stands on its own, and yet is not their teaching.
Thanks for sharing your story, bart!
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
The practices you mentioned - excommunications, ostracism of those who fail to live up to moral standards- are common to churches with a heavy message of sin consciousness also. Even ones considered more mainstream or fundamentalist Christian. It's very destructive and dysfunctional. |
For the record, I changed excommunication (A Catholic term) to disfellowship (JW's term for it). |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Ah! I just finished reading your post Zathrus, and I agree with you.
Last edited by bart007 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:03 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| bart007 wrote: | | For the record, I changed excommunication (A Catholic term) to disfellowship (JW's term for it). |
It's allright. I know what you mean.
In the old days in a couple of churches/ministries I was involved in, we just called it booting someone out or kicking them out.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1969
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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bart007,
| bart wrote: | | As I delved deeper into what the Bible atually states, they were at a loss to defend their beliefs because the Bible does not support the Watchtower views. |
Try it here.
| bart wrote: | | Then I argued that Jesus was God because Psalm 2 states that God will be sending His Son, Elohim is plural representing God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. |
How many Gods do you worship???
| bart wrote: | | When I pointed out the Gospel of John, the JW pointed out that even though the Word is Jesus, that it says 'The Word' is 'a god'. I replied, there is no 'a' in my bible; he argued that it was legitimate to include it, and I pointed out that only the JW's interpret that way, then he referred to some obscure commentator of the 18th century that placed the 'a' there. |
True there is no indefinite article in the Greek. But there are definite articles and there isn't one in applying god to the Word. In other words, the Word was not "the God". That is quite telling in that sentence in Greek.
Strongs refers to Thoes as "a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity"
3588 is the greek definite article. This definite article isn't used in front of thoes in one instance at John 1:1. Can you guess which time?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
KJ,Dy,JB,NAB translations use similar wording
NTIV,NW say "a god" AT,Mo say"was divine" Ludwig Thimme translation reads "God of a sort the Word was".
Why the descrepence?Its tecnical but the word for word translation is "In beginning was the Word,and the Word was toward the God and god was the Word"
Notice the word "the" in front of "Word" and "God". Only one instance here where the definite article "the" does not before the word "god" making "god" a more descriptive term, not identifying.So it can be said that the Word was a god. Well this explains the discrepence. Now which one is in harmony with the rest of the Bible.
What does the rest of the Bible say?
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
(1 John 4:12) At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.
(John 6:46) Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father
John 17:3 In prayer to his Father "3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. "
John 20:17 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”
This is what the apostles believed 1 Cor 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
Revelation 1:1 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,
All these verses show God and Jesus are seperate individuals. No matter what translation you use.
So the translation" the Word was a god" is more accurate according to Greek word structure,and fits in harmony with the rest of the Bible.
Jesus is indeed a lord and a god, but Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
Deut 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords,
| bart wrote: | Jn 1:17-18
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him].NASU
That JW Scholar had no answer for this verse. His Bible has 'Only Begotten Son', but the greek word is clearly 'Theos' and not 'Son'. He had no retort to this. He stuttered a bit trying to think of an answer, then got up and left. |
Is it he had no answer, or was it you didn't listen?
No one has seen God, yet people saw Jesus. How do you equate Jesus as the supreme being with that verse?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1969
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | It's quite telling when you admit you dont understand what I'm saying and then write it off as completely wrong. |
Your statement was wrong any way one looks at it. Your rationalization was human and not scriptural. If there wasn't a "list" of gross sins how would people know what to turn around from. Your inability to respond is quite telling. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | What I'm saying is nothing other than what is taught in God's Word. |
Really? Where is the following in scripture?
| Zathrus wrote: | | The apostles helped the early church remain morally pure by simply giving them a list of things not to do? Perhaps you have not been around very long but this approach has been proven not to work. In fact the more sin conscious a person is, focusing on doing everything right and not mis-stepping, the more power the temptation to do wrong has over them. |
Please direct me to the scripture that says that.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Please direct me to the scripture that says that. |
Since you asked so nicely, sure!
From Romans 7:
| Quote: | | 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. |
...and
| Quote: | 7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. |
and from Romans 8:
| Quote: | 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. |
These are just selected bits that state it most directly. Actually the entire book of Romans, and indeed the new testament, has much to say about how it is being under a system of law for righteousness that actually makes man a transgressor and brings sin to life.
And I certainly see this borne out in the deeds of those I've known in various religious organizations. Being under a system of works righteousness brings out the very worst in us, as it did in the Pahrisees who went to the point of wanting to murder the One who was proving their teaching wrong.
As I've said elsewhere, this is what I find to be the Witnesses' greatest error. What they believe about Jesus' deity and other matters is more academic. But to trust in adherence to a set of requirements for righteousness sets one up to fall, and places oneself as Savior rather than Jesus. You might say it puts the man of sin in God's temple declaring that he is God. It denies the work of the cross.
And this error is not isolated to the Witnesses. The Witnesses are just another Christian or quasi-Christian religious organization who teach that man must attain or maintain righteousness by his own good works.
TBax, I have never heard a Witness utter the sentence "My righteousness is in Christ alone!". Have you? Do Witnesses believe this? When some of your Witness friends stopped by to visit and left me the booklet titled "What Does God Require of Us?" which was simply a long list of things Christians are not supposed to do, I certainly was left with the impression they don't believe their righteousness is in Christ alone.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1969
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Paul wasn't saying if people don't know the law they don't sin, but that they are not conscious they are sinning until the law.
All you showed is that the mosiac law showed the Jews what sin was. Making them conscious of what God expected and realizing no imperfect person can earn life as that law exposed all as sinners.
Are we to believe people without law don't commit fornication, or is it they may not realize they are sinning.
I believe you misread Paul's intent if you think being aware of sin make one want to sin.
In other words, the nations that didn't have these laws didn't sin according to your belief? Or is it they weren't aware of their sins?
Physically minded people give into the desire of the flesh. We must die according to the flesh. Spiritually minded people strive to please God. Can spiritually minded people practice fornication?
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax, I have never heard a Witness utter the sentence "My righteousness is in Christ alone!". |
The only way any of us has a chance is through Jesus. Indeed! Does that mean Christians don't try to be righteous? NO!!! Great effort is required on our part. Continued life is a gift God extends to those endevoring to please Him by living according to His standards and doing His will. We will not be perfect, that is why we need Jesus.
| Zathrus wrote: | | When some of your Witness friends stopped by to visit and left me the booklet titled "What Does God Require of Us?" which was simply a long list of things Christians are not supposed to do, I certainly was left with the impression they don't believe their righteousness is in Christ alone. |
Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | None of those state the more we are focusing on doing everything right and not mis-stepping, the more power the temptation to do wrong has over them. Your statement remians unscriptural. |
I sort of expected this. You came to this conclusion because you wanted to. You do not understand the meaning of the passages I quoted. Your comments on them declare plainly that you see them in the same way as the very religious system you claim is Babylon, Mother of Harlots.
| TBax wrote: | | Physically minded people give into the desire of the flesh. Spiritually minded people strive to please God. Can spiritually minded people practice fornication? |
And there's not better example of what I just said than this. TBax, Romans 8 is not an easy chapter to understand and I don't claim to totally be able to get in Paul's head when I read it. But I can discern that your reading of it is , well, coming from a minding of the things of the flesh.
| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | TBax, I have never heard a Witness utter the sentence "My righteousness is in Christ alone!". |
Indeed. The only way any has a chance is through Jesus. Continued life is a gift God extends to those endevoring to please Him by living according to His standards and doing His will. We will not be perfect, that is why we need Jesus. |
From this reply I can tell that you do not believe your righteousness is in Christ alone, though you do not come out and state "I don't believe it!". According to you, Jesus only gives us a chance. Then given the chance, we earn our own salvation by the works of our flesh. And Jesus is the "duct tape" to patch things up when our works don't measure up.
Small wonder the Witnesses don't consider Him to be God. He's not even much of a savior according to their teaching!
| TBax wrote: | | Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be? |
This statement also so plainly gives away the works-based righteousness that the Witnesses believe will please God. Brother, Witness teaching has not benefitted you. Forsake it, and open your heart to the gospel of grace and peace. Jesus has made you the righteousness of God. He has justified you of all things form which you cannot be justified by the law of Moses, nor the Witness system of works righteousness. Jesus has made you pleasing to God, not by what you do but by what He has done.
Since you missed what I was trying to say in the verses I quoted in the last post, let me zero in on just one:
Rom 7:5 | Quote: | | For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. |
Some translations say "the passions of sins" rather than motions. This verse and the others in the chapter state plainly that sin is brought to life by the law. You are right to say that the law exposed all as sinners. Then it brings out hte very worst in us. All the lowest, most contemptible behavior that humans exhibit. The works of the flesh are not works of those who have no knowlege of God. They're the works of those who walk after the flesh (under the law). What's Galatians all about, TBax?
So do you think it is a good thing, a healthy thing that that law, and the requirements the Witnesses have added to it like not chewing the betel nut (from "What Does God Require of Us?") continue to be applied to your Witness congregation? Have you considered that you are advocating continuing to keep man under the law? Have you considered that Paul wrote in the very same chapter that the gospel would do the very opposite? That it would free man from the law? That the gospel made us dead to the law?
So are you siding for or against the gospel? I know what it looks like to me. What does it look like to you?
Open your heart and embrace God's love and mercy.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451
Last edited by Zathrus on Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1969
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus, (EDIT-added the name to draw Zathrus' attention to this)
James 2:26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
How Paul viewed this. 1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be?
Can spiritually minded people practice fornication?
I believe you misread Paul's intent if you think being aware of sin make one want to sin.
In other words, the nations that didn't have these laws didn't sin according to your belief? Or is it they weren't aware of their sins?
| Zathrus wrote: | | So do you think it is a good thing, a healthy thing that that law, and the requirements the Witnesses have added to it like not chewing the betel nut (from "What Does God Require of Us?") continue to be applied to your Witness congregation? |
Bible principles are alway applicable. People subjecting themselves to addictive drugs like that one is the subject of Bible principle.
The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) regards betel nut to be a known human carcinogen.
If you value life, would you endanger it by using this product, or becoming addicted ( a slave) to it? Very much like cigarettes.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Have you considered that you are advocating continuing to keep man under the law? |
Can spiritually minded people practice fornication?
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Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | bart007,
| bart wrote: | | As I delved deeper into what the Bible atually states, they were at a loss to defend their beliefs because the Bible does not support the Watchtower views. |
Try it here. |
Ok, Why is the Mosaic Law worthless and useless?
And, what Laws do you live by?
| TBax wrote: | | bart wrote: | | Then I argued that Jesus was God because Psalm 2 states that God will be sending His Son, Elohim is plural representing God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. |
How many Gods do you worship??? |
This is like asking how many H2O's exist.
There is the gas (moisture), Solid (Ice/snow), and liquid(water), Yet all three are pure H20.
I worship:
The Father,
The Son - only Begotten God of the God.
The Holy Spirit - God in me!
And all three are one, The 'I AM'.
I believe this because the Bible tells me so. 
Ps 2:7-12
"I will surely tell of the decree of the YHWH:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. '
'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
'You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
Worship the LORD with reverence
And rejoice with trembling.
Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! NASU
God's Son clearly is Jesus in this psalm.
| TBax wrote: | | bart wrote: | | When I pointed out the Gospel of John, the JW pointed out that even though the Word is Jesus, that it says 'The Word' is 'a god'. I replied, there is no 'a' in my bible; he argued that it was legitimate to include it, and I pointed out that only the JW's interpret that way, then he referred to some obscure commentator of the 18th century that placed the 'a' there. |
True there is no indefinite article in the Greek. But there are definite articles and there isn't one in applying god to the Word. In other words, the Word was not "the God". That is quite telling in that sentence in Greek.
Strongs refers to Thoes as "a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity"
3588 is the greek definite article. This definite article isn't used in front of thoes in one instance at John 1:1. Can you guess which time? |
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?
Jesus is called God period. He is the Rock, He is not a rock. Either Jesus is God, or the Apostle John is calling Him 'a god' meaning a pagan god, which is no God at all.
Is there any other type of 'God', small 'g' or not?
And 'a' is not a requirement according to the greek, even without the definite article. There is only one God and only the text can make clear whether that God is our God or a false 'God or Gods' that pagans are worshipping.
Jesus is clearly called God, what kind of God do you think Jesus is? A false 'a god'.
Don't you believe in context as an aid to understanding.
Jn 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
'a God' makes no sense. Nor is jesus a false God. That too makes no sense.
Jn 1:1-5
2 He [Jesus] was in the beginning with God.
Jesus has the same origin as The Father, they must be one as in unity.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Gee, i wasn't there for that, were you? The cosmos was created through Jesus, and nothing was created apart from Him.
Sounds like Divine Deity to me. We weren't there, but through Jesus we were created, amongst everything else that exist. Him and The Father are one.
Don't forget, there was also The Holy Spirit, The Spirit is also God, Elohim, the three are one. The Holy Spirit is in us, God in me. This is very important to the very gospel itself.
[quote="TBax"] What does the rest of the Bible say?
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
Don't you mean the "Only begotten 'a god' who .." oh that's right, there is no reason for the 'a' to be there. The JW's are without excuse for using it in John 1:1.
[quote="TBax"](1 John 4:12) At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.
The literal translation is:
"No man has seen God at any time, if we love one another, God in us Dwells and in us His love is perfected."
We know from the Gospel of John that The Father sent The Holy Spirit, who resides in us and works in us to transform our nature to do the good we were meant to do.
| TBax wrote: | | (John 6:46) Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father |
Jesus was speaking of Himself. We already know that Jesus is the only man who saw God, because all things were created through Jesus by the Father.
BTW, our bodies are not us. If you looked at me, you are not seeing me, you are seeing my body. When I die, my body remains and I move on. So looking at Jesus is not the same as looking at God, though He is God, being the only begotten of God. He is not the Father, but He is one with The Father. Same with the Holy Spirit.
| TBax wrote: | | John 17:3 In prayer to his Father "3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." |
let's try to put it in context.
Jn 17:1-5
"Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. NASU
You're taking me through these God versus, where Jesus acknowledges the Father as the one True God. John has already established Jesus as being God, so John is not concerned about anyone thinking that Jesus is not God. But Jesus is saying that Father is the only true God, in opposition to all false gods. Jesus has set aside a big part of His Deity to be just like us and suffer as we would if we were in His place. On earth He did not seek equality with God the Father, yet verse (5) indicates that He longs for a return to His previous state with The Father: [color=red]"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
Compare with
1 Jn 5:18-20
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NASU
From this we see that we are in the true God (the Father) by virtue being in His son, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ (the last one mentioned) is the True God and eternal life. The Father and Son are one.
Even Charles Taze Russel at least agreed that Jesus was fully Divine after His resurrection.
| TBax wrote: | | John 20:17 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” [/color] |
You not following the JW's handbook here. It should read:
"‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my 'a god' and YOUR 'a god'.”
The the greek definite article isn't used in front of those thoes.
We basically covered your points on 1 Cor 8:6 Revelation 1:1
| TBax wrote: | All these verses show God and Jesus are seperate individuals. No matter what translation you use.
So the translation" the Word was a god" is more accurate according to Greek word structure,and fits in harmony with the rest of the Bible.
Jesus is indeed a lord and a god, but Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. |
Not so, the indefinite article is missing in John 20:17. thus God the Father is called 'a god' twice. It is not the verse that is wrong, it is The JW's interpretation that is in error. They seem to be saying there are different levels of Gods. God is One. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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deleted double post
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Last edited by Dust on Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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