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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: Testimonies from JW's....Joy Or Sorrow When You First Found |
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| Quote: | Joy Or Sorrow When You First Found Out It Was False?
For me, it was joy. I was raised in the religion, and I always figured I'd be dying along with 6 billion others because I hated the meetings, the preaching work and the rules, morality and threats of 'Jehovah'. I did not want it to be true.
For others here, finding out it was false was a hard time to go through.
As well as asking which feelings you had at first (joy/sorrow/or add your own) I have a follow up question for those who found it hard- What was it that made the impending deaths of 6 billion people okay for you? Did you really think everyone else was 'evil' and deserved death? Did you not think on it too much, left it in God's capable hands? Something else?
I know most of us say we're glad it is false now, so if it was hard facing reality at first, what was your mind making of all the things we now see as negative when you were a part of it? |
| Quote: | | Happy Happy Joy Joy |
| Quote: | At first, it was sadness because i realized that i had been had by the watchtowers, 5 minutes later i was overjoyed, knowing christiandom was a lot closer to the truth then society.
Amen |
| Quote: | | crushed to the bitter core.........40+ years of brainwashing is hard to overcome.......I now have no real hope for the future, and at least I had that...........I feel lost.........even those awful Christendom faiths, and pagans have hope for life after death....I have nothing, and am left with a miserable life with JW family at this point |
| Quote: | I was releaved at first, the whole world seemed open to me. But then one day I came across my childrens blood cards. And I realized that I would have let my children die for a man made cult (not even a very good one).
That was an awful day, I ranted and raved, my poor non JW boyfriend was beside himself. he kept saying "you wouldn't have done it, I know you wouldn't have done it". But I knew for a fact that I would have. I was a true believer.
Life is soooo much better know, but there are things that I miss. Like being absolutely certain about my beliefs. I'm not certain of anything anymore.
And I know thats the more healthy way, but I miss being sure. |
| Quote: | Joy.
Extreme joy.
Hallelujah joy.
Praise Jesus joy.
Thank God it is a lie and not the truth.
6 million people can be wrong. |
| Quote: | I know most of us say we're glad it is false now, so if it was hard facing reality at first, what was your mind making of all the things we now see as negative when you were a part of it?
You'd have to ask my mother she raised me in the publishing company since birth. It took me till I was 31 to figure out how to escape.
When Armegeddon was not all it was cracked up to be in 75, I saw my opening to escape. |
| Quote: | A little bit of both...I was happy to realize it was false and my feelings weren't "crazy"...but sad (only because) I lost my family over it. I'm content now because if that is how they want to believe, then so be it, it's their choice.
Having the freedom to think and choose whatever career I desire was a big relief for me. |
| Quote: | | I always thought it was false, so when I first started connecting things myself I was conflicted. Then when I started really seeing it, I was nervous about my future (would my partner stay with me, etc). Once I came to peace with it, I was relieved. |
| Quote: | first absolute joy: never liked the meetings and Hated field service
Now Iam totally pi$$ed off for being duped for 20 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Quote: | | It was devastating to me at first. I still beleived I was leaving the truth, I just felt incapable of following the rules and lifestyle. It wasn't till later when I began researching everything did I get happy about it. |
| Quote: | | Bittersweet. With time, mostly sweet, with a belch of bitter occasionally. |
| Quote: | | Relief followed by anger then a great sense of loss. |
Wow......
Lord I pray that you fill the hearts of these people with your Holy Spirit, guiding them to all truth. In Jesus holy and precious name I pray.....Amen.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Of coarse these apostates found joy when they rationalized it was false.
The truth is not the easy coarse. Some of their testamonials prove they couldn't live up to it or accept Bible truths.
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
One dude "hated...the preaching work and the rules, morality"!!! He hated the work Jesus assigned his disciples and the morality. Too bad. Leaving the truth is nothing but a justification for him to live how he wants to, not having to answer for his choice of morality. 
He can pretend Armageddon isn't coming. That is his mistake, and anyone foolish enough to listen to him. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Dust, I found this very interesting!! Thanks for sharing!
As I have said elsewhere, the JW's are really not that much different than many apocalyptic fringe groups. There are thousands of churches and religious organizations across the country who may not be considered as "on the fringe" as the Witnesses, but whose control over their memberes is just as cultic.
I found myself in a couple of ministries and churches such as this in the early 80's. And since then I have observed a few others, and made friends with Christians who also said they'd been in similar types of churches/organizations. They all share a few things in common such as a belief that they have revelation truth that no other Christian organization/denomination has. Many times their beliefs are very apocalyptic/prophetically based. Often they believe their ministry is specially empowered by God to raise up "super saints", but only if the people diligently submit to everything the ministry commands them.
A friend of mine told me of a church he formerly attended who taught that they were specially chosen, and due to their teaching, would have greater spritual strength to stand against the persecution they taught was going to come during the tribulation. They considered their organization to be the ones written of when the new testament refers to the "elect"! I found this amusing since the church I attended in the early 80's considered themselves to be the ones describes as the "elect" and the "bride". The bride was considered to be their organization only, while the "body of Christ" was considered to be all Christians.
The reactions and feelings of the people you quoted are typical of someone who leaves such an organization. I myself felt relief and joy. I knew while I was in this church that the authoritarian, restrictive teachings and practices they had were wrong, and I knew God did not require it. But I went along because I believed their talk about submitting to the leadership, though it made me unhappy. It was a great blessing not to have to walk on eggshells for fear of offending the faith of these weaker brothers when I left! I could be who God made me without worrying that the leadership would not approve!
I felt the same anger and loss that so many years of my life had been wasted, believing the claims of a ministry and only after many years discovering they were empty claims. And I felt frustration because I knew the message of the Bible was one of freedom, yet I submitted to demands that I recognized were not coming from God out of respect and submission to my leadership. In the end that respect I gave them all those years was worth nothing to them, and I was called an apostate or infidel, and raked through the muck anyway. I should have immediately said "So long! It's clear we're not on the same page!" rather than listen to their sermons about not getting up and leaving just because there's something the leadership says that you don't happen to agree with.
I find the response from the lady who misses being absolutely certain about her beliefs very interesting. I have had a hunger for the truth of God since I was a teen, and I've been a devoted student of God's Word. It was clear to me since that time that I could not depend on a man or a ministry to spoon feed me what I was to believe. I had to have my own relationship with God and come to know Him for myself. I had to study His Word and come to understand His plan for myself. I have experienced friction with ministries and churches that I've been part of because I do not just buy into their beliefs. I have my own, formed by seeking God and searching His Word for myself. I've found that many churches and ministries, especially the more authoritarian/controlling ones, like when their people passively allow them to spoonfeed them their beliefs, and then parrot those teachings back. And I've found that some Christians are comfortable with the churches they attend doing that. They will trust someone else completely to find out the truth of God and spoonfeed it to them. I won't do that. No man or organization can be trusted to find the truth of God for me. We must search out what God has for each of us. We benefit from coming together and each sharing ideas, and holding fast those ideas that stand the test of scripture and witness of God's Spirit, rather than looking to one person or organization to spoonfeed us our beliefs.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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This person had a problem with the truth in the scriptures. The fact that he left the true organization because of it is quite telling.
| Quote: | | I hated the meetings, the preaching work and the rules, morality and threats of 'Jehovah'. I did not want it to be true. |
This person has a problem with both scriptues and the true organization. He also doesn't want to believe many will die at Armageddon. Because he doesn't want to believe it he made it not true in his mind. He is in for a giant paradigm shift.
Appearently some of you soak this up as wonderful insight, when in reality you are agreeing with an apostate against scripture.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Testimonies from JW's....Joy Or Sorrow When You First Fo |
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| Quote: | | ... I hated the meetings, the preaching work and the rules, morality and threats of 'Jehovah'. I did not want it to be true. |
| Quote: | | I always thought it was false, so when I first started connecting things myself I was conflicted. |
I believe there are many people such as these who are hearing from the Spirit of God. He speaks to them in their spirits and they know deep down what the truth is, though they may not know the scripture for it because they've been taught a twisted interpretation of scripture, and have been taught teachings that deny that truth.
But the Lord's sheep hear His voice. And they can tell, though they may not know how, whe they're hearing the voice of a stranger.
It occurs to me that organizations that teach a set of rules or requirements for obtaining eternal life are playing the part of the serpent in the garden - trying to sell the righteous something they already have - and are! Man was created in God's image, and the serpent deceived them into thinking they needed something else to be like God. In the same way these organizations push their outwardly appealing knowlege of good and evil on the righteous. But there are those who hear the voice of God's Spirit and know that rules, requirements and submission to an organization of man is not what relationship with God is about.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hating the morality the Bible puts forth is "hearing from the Spirit of God"???
Does not wanting Armageddon to come mean it won't come too?
Actually Satan showed Eve they could make their own rules and not listen to God as ruler.
We listen to God, yet we are wrong?
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Hating the morality the Bible puts forth is "hearing from the Spirit of God"??? |
No one is talking about hating morality. I am talking about knowing in one's spirit that a set of requirements and rules imposed externally by men or by an organization of man is not the work of the Spirit of God.
| TBax wrote: | | Does not wanting Armageddon to come mean it won't come too? |
Witness teaching on prophecy is another area in which they are completely in error, but that is another discussion. I will only say here that a sound soteriology will lead to a Biblical eschatology. But the Witnesses hav emade eschatology the foundation and developed a soteriology based on their flawed eschatology. It's not surprising their soteriology ministers death rather than life.
| TBax wrote: | | Actually Satan showed Eve they could make their own rules and not listen to God as ruler. We listen to God, yet we are wrong? |
In a sense, what you said about Adam & Eve is correct. Man's religious rules were never God's plan from the beginning. Why has the Witness organization followed after Adam and Eve's error rather than listen to the Spirit of God?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | No one is talking about hating morality. |
| Quote: | | I hated the meetings, the preaching work and the rules, morality and threats of 'Jehovah'. I did not want it to be true. |
Does not wanting Armageddon to come mean it won't come too?
| Zathrus wrote: | | Witness teaching on prophecy is another area in which they are completely in error |
Oh. So you don't believe Armageddon will come either? That would figure. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | Why has the Witness organization followed after Adam and Eve's error rather than listen to the Spirit of God? |
Is fornication wrong?
How does God feel about it?
Is understanding how God feels about it a rule of man?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 894
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Here we have another eye-opening testimony.....
| Quote: | Hi
I left about 8 months ago after 21 years a Witness. The main reason was a very gradual opening of my eyes to a certain inconsistancy. I could never figure out why it was our "sacred duty" to follow what the Governing Body said, yet they claimed to be infallible. First I tried to dismiss the inconsistancy and thought I was just too dumb to get it. But it gradually bothered me to such an extent (especially after the April 07 WT) that I decided to investigate their claim of being the faithful and discreet slave class once and for all.
The only way I could do this was to go back to the beginning. I figured they must have been teaching something monumentally significant in 1919 to be chosen by Christ as their slave. So back I went. I read the proclaimers book and began to research the old books in the KH library. It still wasn't giving me a full picture of what it was really like for the witnesses back then.
Then I came across a WT quote. It said: "The Catholic Church occupies a very significant position in the world and claims to be the way of salvation for hundreds of millions of people. Any organization that assumes that position should be willing to submit to scrutiny and criticism.”—Awake magazine 22 Aug 1984 p.28
I thought, If that's true, then I should look at literature outside the Org. (a defiante no-no up to now) I reasoned if the Org is the truth, it had nothing to fear from a submission "to scrutiny and criticism".
I ordered Crisis of Conscience and Christian Freedom from Amazon. As you can imagine, I couldn't put them down, especially the chapter on the faithful and discreet slave in Christian Freedom.
I was blown away by the sheer amount of documented and checkable evidence Ray Franz presented in the books. And I did check it as far as I was able.
From then on I could see clearly that this Organization has no right to claim to be the spokesman of God based on Matt 24 v 45. Coupled that with the Scripture at Luke 21 v 8 and I knew for sure I was being warned to not follow this group any longer. I disassociated myself a short time after this and have NEVER been happier. |
Matthew 24:45
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
.....And another.....
| Quote: | | I just dissaciated at the send of 2007. It was becasue I discovered all the pyramid crap that was originally believed by the witnesses. i also just oculd not accept the 1914 teaching that Christ returned then. It says his return will be as obvious as the lightnign in the night sky, not only observed by a few random governig body members who would haev to let everyone else know. In addition to that, the generation teaching has been changed too many times, and if the 1914 teaching was right, it wouldn't have to be "adjusted" so much. It just felt wrong in my heart, all of it, and i couldn't go to the meetings without feeling numb and dead inside. |
.....And yet another....
| Quote: | | I faded out starting in 07. I left because it is a false christianity. And a cult as well. I stopped believing it was the "one true religion" or that the Governing Body was "Jehovah's sole channel". I had realized this for years (but had sublimated it on purpose in order to cope), but impending fatherhood forced me to finally burn the ships and not look back. |
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | it was our "sacred duty" to follow what the Governing Body said, yet they claimed to be infallible. |
Total lie!
Was Moses fallable? Should the Isrealites have listened to him?
This dude claimed to be a Witness for 21 years, yet bases his research for his exit on a lie no true Witness believes. If people want to find a way out they will. The narrow path isn't easy, and faith is not a possesion of all people. Either this guy wasn't paying attention for 21 years, or he is willing to lie to justify his action.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | No one is talking about hating morality. |
| Quote: | | I hated the meetings, the preaching work and the rules, morality and threats of 'Jehovah'. I did not want it to be true. |
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Touche. But I think what most of us find less objectionable than morality, including the person giving that testimony, is moralizing. And authoritarian, controlling religious groups excel at this.
| TBax wrote: | Is fornication wrong?
How does God feel about it?
Is understanding how God feels about it a rule of man? |
You're so stuck on this morality thing. And this shows the manipulating, controlling nature of organizations like the Witnesses. I have never said fornication wasn't wrong. I have said that religious organizations like the Witnesses deceiving and intimidating people into believing they have authroity from God to control and manipulate peoples' personal life, and to "disfellowship" them for not meeting their moral standard is wrong. And I have said that the Witnesses deceiving people into believing that it is not Jesus Christ who saves them but their own works and morality, after Jesus only gives them "the chance" to be saved is wrong.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | You're so stuck on this morality thing. |
Not stuck on it. But that is what this is about.
| Zathrus wrote: | | And this shows the manipulating, controlling nature of organizations like the Witnesses. |
To apply the Bible's standard of morality is controlling and manipulative?
| Zathrus wrote: | | Witnesses deceiving and intimidating people into believing they have authroity from God to control and manipulate peoples' personal life, and to "disfellowship" them for not meeting their moral standard is wrong. |
Do you have a problem with the first century Christians as well?
1 Cor 5:9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
| Zathrus wrote: | | And I have said that the Witnesses deceiving people into believing that it is not Jesus Christ who saves them but their own works and morality, after Jesus only gives them "the chance" to be saved is wrong. |
What did Jesus believe? I posted this many times, but you cannot get the sense of it.
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
You appearently don't read what I write, or ignor it and pass your motive judgements as to why we do things. You believe what you choose to regarding us regardless of what was said.
1 Peter 3:10 For, “he that would love life and see good days, let him restrain his tongue from what is bad and [his] lips from speaking deception, 11 but let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; let him seek peace and pursue it. 12 For [the] eyes of Jehovah are upon the righteous ones, and his ears are toward their supplication; but [the] face of Jehovah is against those doing bad things.”
If you don't try, your in big trouble. The face of Jehovah is against those doing bad things.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Do you have a problem with the first century Christians as well?
1 Cor 5:9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.” |
Whatever Paul's reason for recommending this, he said it was so that this man would be saved. Which means a few things:
1.) Paul did not believe that what this man was practicing would condemn him to eternal judgment.
2.) Paul's objective was the salvation of souls. Reaching as many as possible with the news of Jesus Christ. He evidently thought that removing this man was the man's best hope for salvation.
3.) This means Paul was less concerned with "keeping the congregation clean" than with people as individuals. The people do not exist for the sake of the organization, as is the case with authoritarian religious groups including the Witnesses, but the church exists for the people.
4.) Paul and other writers of the new testament were concerned with false teaching spreading in the early church. The no. 1 false teaching they were battling was the teaching of salvation by works. They wrote the churches to avoid those claiming to be brothers who teach this. Therefore the Witnesses cannot claim to be doing as the Bible instructs us, since their organization is led by men who teach this.
| TBax wrote: | What did Jesus believe? I posted this many times, but you cannot get the sense of it.
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
You appearently don't read what I write, or ignor it and pass your motive judgements as to why we do things. You believe what you choose to regarding us regardless of what was said. |
Don't worry brother Bax. I read your posts.
Do you even know what the narrow door is which we are to exert ourselves to get into?
| TBax wrote: | 1 Peter 3:10 For, “he that would love life and see good days, let him restrain his tongue from what is bad and [his] lips from speaking deception, 11 but let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; let him seek peace and pursue it. 12 For [the] eyes of Jehovah are upon the righteous ones, and his ears are toward their supplication; but [the] face of Jehovah is against those doing bad things.”
If you don't try, your in big trouble. The face of Jehovah is against those doing bad things. |
So the Witnesses have taken passages teaching self control and being a good example before unbelievers and made these their doctrine of salvation?
You see, this is the problem. I do not deny that the Bible teaches self control and walking uprightly. But it teaches that these things are not what saves a man. They do not constitute our righteousness. Jesus does. These things result from our already having been declared righteous. Peter is teaching this in the very chapter you quote from.
Have you considered how similar your soteriology is to Catholic teaching on salvation? The denial that righteousness is through Christ alone, and that works are also necessary is a striking similarity. One wonders why the Witnesses consider that church and the rest of the denominations that split from her to be the false Babylonian system of religion when the Witnesses share many of her foundational teachings.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Regarding 1 Cor 5:9
| Zathrus wrote: | | Whatever Paul's reason for recommending this, he said it was so that this man would be saved. Which means a few things: |
I didn't see Paul saying "so he can be saved". He showed a little leaven ferments the whole lump. The action could shock him to his senses, which would be great. But this counsel is to keep the congregation from being contaminated from such "leaven".
| Zathrus wrote: | | 1.) Paul did not believe that what this man was practicing would condemn him to eternal judgment. |
If the man doesn't repent and turn around, then yes he did.
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
| Zathrus wrote: | | 2.) Paul's objective was the salvation of souls. Reaching as many as possible with the news of Jesus Christ. He evidently thought that removing this man was the man's best hope for salvation. |
Correct. Paul's concern was for the man and the members of the congregation. To keep it clean, and to keep the practice from spreading.
| Zathrus wrote: | | 3.) This means Paul was less concerned with "keeping the congregation clean" than with people as individuals. |
An incorrect assumption on your part.
| Zathrus wrote: | | The people do not exist for the sake of the organization, as is the case with authoritarian religious groups including the Witnesses, but the church exists for the people. |
If the organization condones corruption, and doesn't try to follow Paul's counsel here, then the organization is not the true Christian organization.
| Zathrus wrote: | | 4.) Paul and other writers of the new testament were concerned with false teaching spreading in the early church. |
Like fornication has no consequences in the organization?
| Zathrus wrote: | | The no. 1 false teaching they were battling was the teaching of salvation by works. |
Although we don't recieve salvation by our works, you make it no. 1, not Paul or the other writters. The law condemned people. No one could earn salvation through works of the law. That is why we need Christ.
The writers also make it clear our faith must be backed up by works. To deny works need to be done, which is evidence of our faith, is to deny true faith and is contrary to scripture.
Regardless of all your dancing around, the first century congregation were to practice Paul's counsel, and the modern day congregation does as well, contrary to your words. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | and to "disfellowship" them for not meeting their moral standard is wrong. |
The first century congregation had this "standard" and we do too!!! To say this is "doctrine of men" is to deny the Bible is inspired of God!!!
Regarding Luke 13:23
| Zathrus wrote: | Don't worry brother Bax. I read your posts.
Do you even know what the narrow door is which we are to exert ourselves to get into? |
Yes. The gate to the path of life.
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
| Zathrus wrote: | So the Witnesses have taken passages teaching self control and being a good example before unbelievers and made these their doctrine of salvation?
You see, this is the problem. |
I do see the problem. We are to follow the counsel of Jesus and the inspired Bible writers, and you find a way to reject these and those that follow the counsel.
I provide you with scripture, you provide me with your philosophies. Nothing you have said changes the scriptures I have shown. It shows the fact that you don't want to face the truth.
You speak against Jehovah's Witnesses for following 1 Cor 5:9-13. But that is scripture.
You speak against Jehovah's Witnesses for displaying works and pass a motive judgement saying they are trying to earn salvation. They are not. They are backing up their faith. Your motive judgement mean you lack love.
You can pretend trying to do what is right isn't required, but then you fit the scripture below.
Jude 4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Remember Zathrus.
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
If you have faith in Jesus, your works will back that up!!!! But then people like you will see those works, and make false accusations about your motives.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | I didn't see Paul saying "so he can be saved". |
No problem. Here it is:
1 Corinthians 5
| Quote: | 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. |
I find it most significant that you find my conclusion that Paul was less concerned with "keeping the congregation clean" than he was with people to be an "incorrect assumption". This again displays the controlling mentality of the Witnesses, viewing people as objects which are there for the benefit of the organization.
| TBax wrote: | | I provide you with scripture, you provide me with your philosophies. |
Not to worry. I have not yet begun to quote scripture.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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