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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Matt 24 |
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Hi MoJo,
I've been following your study and am looking forward to your next installments.
| MoJo wrote: | I did some studying of Matt 24 which I haven't finished yet, but ran across some interesting things along the way which blessed my understanding.
A little background on what led to this study; I was pondering on the word footstool.
Strongs
Hebrew 01916 - to stamp upon
Greek 5286 - to subject; to reduce one's power - a metaphor taken from the practice of conquerors who placed their feet on the necks of the conquered
So where in scripture do we see this stamping upon? |
My attention was also drawn to the footstool (of Jesus) the other day while I was studying the significance of ASHES as in "SACKCLOTH AND ASHES". You may be interested in these verses:
For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an OVEN; and all the PROUD, yea, and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be STUBBLE: and the day that comes shall BURN THEM UP, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up like calves of the stall. And you shall tread down (TRAMPLE) the wicked; for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3
I did some digging as to the meaning of sitting in Sackcloth and putting Ashes on ones head and it seems that this represents REPENTANCE:
Woe unto you, Chorazin! woe unto you, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Matthew 11:21 & Luke 10:13
I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear: BUT NOW MY EYE SEES YOU. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42:5-6
Note also in the Malachi verses above how it says:
For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an OVEN; and all the PROUD, yea, and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be STUBBLE: and the day that comes shall BURN THEM UP, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...
The day that shall burn as an OVEN (H8574)...
| WordStudy wrote: | H8574
ַתּנּוּר
tannûr: A masculine noun referring to an oven, a FURNACE. The word is used to describe a FIREPOT(Gen_15:17); an oven for baking bricks or food (Exo_8:3 [7:28]); a furnace for producing heat that consumes what is in it. God's enemies will be consumed by fire as in an oven (Psa_21:9 [10]). It is used as a symbol of God's avenging presence, His furnace (Isa_31:9). It describes Israel's adulterous lust for false and forbidden liaisons among the nations (Hos_7:4, Hos_7:6-7). The Day of the Lord is described as burning like a furnace (Mal_4:1 [3:19], NASB). |
Compare this with the following verses:
For they have made ready their HEART like an OVEN (FURNACE), while they lie in wait: their baker sleeps all the night; in the morning it burns as a flaming fire. They are all hot as an OVEN (FURNACE), and have devoured their judges; all their kings have fallen: [b]there is none among them that calls unto me. Hosea 7:6-7
They are all adulterers, as an OVEN (FURNACE) heated by the baker, who ceases to stir the fire after he has kneaded the dough, until it is LEAVENED. Hosea 7:4
Sound familiar?:
Another parable spoke he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Matthew 13:33
Also note this verse:
For the KING trusts in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved. Your hand shall find out all your enemies: your right hand shall find out those that hate you. You shall make them as a FIERY OVEN (FURNACE) in the time of your anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them. Their FRUIT shall you destroy from the earth, and their SEED from among the children of men. Psalms 21:7-10
If God's SEED is FAITH and His FRUIT is of His SPIRIT than what is the SEED and Fruit of His Enemies? I'm guessing the SEED of His Enemies is opposite to FAITH a.k.a UNBELIEF. This is supported by the following verse:
Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be IN any of YOU an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12
Note that the BRETHREN are being warned here... 
Also note how Jesus Feet are described in this verse:
And his FEET like unto fine BRONZE as if they BURNED in a FURNACE; and his voice as the sound of many waters. Revelation 1:15
Compare this with Daniel's vision:
His body also was like beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as torches of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished bronzeH5178 , and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. Daniel 10:6
| Strong's wrote: | H5178
נחשׁת
nechôsheth
nekh-o'-sheth
For H5154; copper; hence, something made of that metal, that is, coin, a fetter; figuratively base (as compared with gold or silver): - brasen, brass, chain, copper, fetter (of brass), filthiness, steel. |
One more verse involving H5154 which is from H5178:
Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make your horn iron, and I will make your hoofs BRONZE (H5154): and you shall beat in pieces(H1854) many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their wealth unto the Lord of the whole earth. Micah 4:13
Beat in pieces many people...:
| WordStudy wrote: | H1854
ָדַקק
dāqaq: A verb meaning to pulverize, to beat into powder. It is used figuratively of pulverizing or crushing one's enemies (2Sa_22:43) or even peoples and nations (Mic_4:13). Israel, renewed by God, will pulverize the mountains, overcoming all obstacles (Isa_41:15). Literally, it indicates the crushing, grinding fine of various items: grain, corn (Isa_28:28); asherahs, pagan symbols (2Ki_23:6, 2Ki_23:15); incense (Exo_30:36); the golden calf ground up by Moses' orders (Exo_32:20). |
So to summarize Jesus and His Bride (the daughter of Zion) have BRONZE FEET as if they burned in the FURNACE...
With their BRONZE FEET they will crush many people as ASHES under the soles of their feet...
In the DAY that burns like a FURNACE...
So what are ASHES but the remains of that which is burned in the FIRE! A.K.A. REPENTANCE!
It seems that the reaction of many people in that DAY will be like Job:
I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear: BUT NOW MY EYE SEES YOU. Therefore I abhor myself, and REPENT in dust and ashes. Job 42:5-6
Hope you found some useful stuff in here for your study Mo! 
Lots of Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3239
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi lily. I also did a foray into sackcloth and ashes, but the conclusion I came to fitted in more with the definition of mourning. Mourning involves loss and perhaps the ashes refer more to the destruction of something.
One may repent **because** of the destruction, but I think after doing such a fine job, you got slightly hasty with this;
| Quote: | | So what are ASHES but the remains of that which is burned in the FIRE! A.K.A. REPENTANCE! |
IMO, I don't think the ashes themselves represent repentance, but represent what has been destroyed. A thought just occurred to me that it may even symbolize shame. Look at this;
Lam 2:8 The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
Lam 2:9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes [are] among the Gentiles: the law [is] no [more]; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.
Lam 2:10 The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, [and] keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground.
I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear: BUT NOW MY EYE SEES YOU. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42:5-6
Job is ashamed  but also everything he had believed wise about himself had been destroyed and was in ashes.
As to the rest, there is a lot of useful stuff in it.
I have been studying Ezek 4 & 5 about the seige of Jerusalem and you will note in 5:3 that a few hairs are bound in his skirt and don't go into the fire. These are the remnant. Going into the fire is death and destruction for Israel and Jerusalem due to the wrath of the Lord.
Egypt was likened to a furnace because of the oppression of the Hebrews. Being in the iron furnace was oppression with no escape and the scriptures you provided are in agreement with this definition of God's anger.
| lily wrote: | So to summarize Jesus and His Bride (the daughter of Zion) have BRONZE FEET as if they burned in the FURNACE...
With their BRONZE FEET they will crush many people as ASHES under the soles of their feet...
In the DAY that burns like a FURNACE... |
I think this is a good conclusion, but then I think you jumped way to far ahead with this;
| Quote: | | So what are ASHES but the remains of that which is burned in the FIRE! A.K.A. REPENTANCE! |
If you back up and look at what Jesus said about: a) falling on the corner stone and being broken as opposed to being ground to powder, and: b) telling the disciples to wipe the dust from their feet in cities that wouldn't receive them.
Good stuff. thanx for the contribution; gets the juices flowing.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Mo, long one... 
Hope it's worth the read.
| MoJo wrote: | | Hi lily. I also did a foray into sackcloth and ashes, but the conclusion I came to fitted in more with the definition of mourning. Mourning involves loss and perhaps the ashes refer more to the destruction of something. |
Hmmm yes! Reminds me of the "WEEPING and GNASHING of TEETH". Look at these verses:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
Notice the LOSS involved above? The LOSS of HIS KINGDOM just like these verses state:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children OF THE KINGDOM shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:12
Note this too Mo!  :
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Luke 12:32
The Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to Christians. So it seems that Jesus is referring to Christians in the above verses (specifically Matthew 13:41-42).
| MoJo wrote: | One may repent **because** of the destruction, but I think after doing such a fine job, you got slightly hasty with this;
| Bitterlily wrote: | | So what are ASHES but the remains of that which is burned in the FIRE! A.K.A. REPENTANCE! |
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Yeah Maybe? 
Maybe my "A.K.A REPENTANCE" comment was a distraction. But I hope you got the part about the ASHES being the remains of that which is burned in the FIRE! I got thinking about this when considering the behaviour of natural FIRE and how it is UNQUENCHABLE only as long as it has combustible material to keep it burning. Once it has all burnt to ASHES the FIRE goes out. Do you think this has some relevance to all the ASHES in Scripture?
| MoJo wrote: | IMO, I don't think the ashes themselves represent repentance, but represent what has been destroyed. A thought just occurred to me that it may even symbolize shame. Look at this;
Lam 2:8 The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
Lam 2:9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes [are] among the Gentiles: the law [is] no [more]; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.
Lam 2:10 The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, [and] keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground.
I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear: BUT NOW MY EYE SEES YOU. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42:5-6
Job is ashamed |
Gnashing of Teeth
| MoJo wrote: | As to the rest, there is a lot of useful stuff in it.
I have been studying Ezek 4 & 5 about the seige of Jerusalem and you will note in 5:3 that a few hairs are bound in his skirt and don't go into the fire. These are the remnant. Going into the fire is death and destruction for Israel and Jerusalem due to the wrath of the Lord.
Egypt was likened to a furnace because of the oppression of the Hebrews. Being in the iron furnace was oppression with no escape and the scriptures you provided are in agreement with this definition of God's anger. |
I've just read Ezek 4 & 5 to catch up with ya - the dung in the bread, that's right, not nice  .
I was gonna mention the Iron FURNACE of Egypt in my last post coz I noticed that it was a different Hebrew Word (H3564) to the one in my previous post (8574).
| WordStudy wrote: | H3564
כּוּר
ḵûr: I. A masculine noun meaning a furnace, a forge, a SMELTING POT. It refers to a furnace or smelting pot literally but is also used in figurative language to depict human suffering in judgment or DISCIPLINE: Egypt was the iron furnace (literally, furnace of iron) (Deu_4:20; 1Ki_8:51; Jer_11:4). It is used in the phrase "furnace of affliction/oppression" (Isa_48:10). It is compared to the Lord who tests hearts, not gold or silver (Pro_17:3; Pro_27:21). ISRAEL is compared to the DROSS OR IMPURITIES in one of these smelting furnaces (Eze_22:18, Eze_22:20, Eze_22:22).
II. A verb meaning to pierce. It is used to describe stabbing or puncturing something. The oppressed psalmist tells of his enemies piercing his hands and feet (Psa_22:16 [17]), an adumbration or foreshadowing of what would happen to the Messiah. |
His Enemies piercing his hands and FEET:
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15
Anyway note these verses mentioned in the WordStudy Dictionary regarding the Iron Furnace of Egypt:
A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causes SHAME (sorry  sidetrack), and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren. The refining pot is for silver, and the FURNACE (H3564) for GOLD: but the LORD tries the HEARTS. Proverbs 17:2-3
THE LORD tries the HEARTS...
The Furnace for GOLD...
The GOLD reminds me of these verses in Lamentations:
How has the GOLD become dim! how has the most FINE GOLD changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out at the head of every street. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to FINE GOLD, how are they esteemed as EARTHEN PITCHERS, the work of the hands of the potter! Lamentations 4:1-2
Here are some more verses on the Iron Furnace of Egypt:
As the refining pot for silver, and the furnace for gold; so is a man (man's mouth) judged by his praise. Proverbs 27:21
For my name's sake will I defer my anger, and for my praise will I restrain it for you, that I cut you not off. Behold, I have refined you, but not with silver; I have tested you in the FURNACE of affliction. Isaiah 48:9-10
Son of man, the house of Israel has to me become dross: all they are bronze, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the FURNACE; they are even the DROSS of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD; Because you have all become DROSS, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and bronze, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in my anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Ezekiel 22:18-20
The rest of Eze 22 is very interesting, talking about Prophets, Priests and Princes. Sounds alot like the Church don't you reckon?
As for your statement here:
| Quote: | Going into the fire is death and destruction for Israel and Jerusalem due to the wrath of the Lord.
Egypt was likened to a furnace because of the oppression of the Hebrews. Being in the iron furnace was oppression with no escape and the scriptures you provided are in agreement with this definition of God's anger. |
Note that there was no escape for the ISRAELITES from the Iron Furnace of Egypt for as long as the LORD hardened Pharoahs heart:
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth my armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth my hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them. Exodus 7:3-5
Note that the GOLD (Israelites) was being tried in the EGYPTIAN FURNACE of affliction, but was eventually released when God brought Great Judgement on Egypt. IOW the GOLD wasn't being Judged but the FURNACE was and God brought the GOLD out of the FURNACE. This is supported by the following verse:
But the LORD has taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron FURNACE, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as you are this day. Deuteronomy 4:20
You may recall me mentioning this following verse in another study:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Revelation 11:8
You may also recall the conclusion I came to about it referring to physical Jerusalem but I have since had my thinking stretched by the possibility that this great City is not physical but SPIRITUAL (or metaphoric). For example look at these verses:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it, and brings forth plants fit for them by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briars is worthless, and is near unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much worse punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has TRODDEN UNDER FOOT the Son of God, and has COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, with which he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE INSULT UNTO the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29
Whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their HEARTS TURNED BACK AGAIN INTO EGYPT (the Furnace), Acts 7:39
Did their hearts turn back because they liked being in the FIRE of the FURNACE or had their hearts become the FIERY FURNACE itself?:
For they have made ready their heart like a FURNACE, while they lie in wait: their baker sleeps all the night; in the morning it burns as a flaming fire. They are all hot as an FURNACE, and have devoured their judges; all their kings have fallen: there is none among them that calls unto me. Hosea 7:6-7
Reminds me of those verses in James:
Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. Behold, how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a FIRE, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it DEFILES THE WHOLE BODY, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell (VALLEY OF HINNOM). James 3:5-6
Does it all sound to you like these verses are speaking about the Church? As in the Wheat and the Chaff, the Sheep and the Goats and the Sheep and the Wolves. Those on His Right Hand being the GOLD (Hearts tried in the Fire) and those on His Left being the IRON FURNACE (Hearts prepared as a Fiery Furnace) that will be Judged and destroyed when it has completed His purpose for it.
| Quote: | | If you back up and look at what Jesus said about: a) falling on the corner stone and being broken as opposed to being ground to powder, and: b) telling the disciples to wipe the dust from their feet in cities that wouldn't receive them. |
I only have one thing I'd like to point out regarding the "Crushed like Powder" and that is that it is not all bad news to be in such a state:
The LORD is near unto them that are of a broken heart; and saves such as be of a CONTRITE spirit. Psalms 34:18
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a CONTRITE heart, O God, you will not despise. Psalms 51:17
For thus says the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a CONTRITE and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.Isaiah 57:15
For all those things has my hand made, and all those things have been, says the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a CONTRITE spirit, and trembles at my word.Isaiah 66:2
CONTRITE = H1792, H1793 & H1794
| WordStudy wrote: | H1792
ָדָּכאdāḵā’: A verb meaning to crush, to beat down, to bruise, to oppress. The Hebrew word is often used in a poetic or figurative sense. Eliphaz spoke of those who lived in houses of clay, whose foundations were crushed easily (Job_4:19). The psalmist prayed that the king would crush an oppressor (Psa_72:4) and accused the wicked of crushing the Lord's people (Psa_94:5). The wise man exhorted others not to crush the needy in court (Pro_22:22). Isaiah said that it was the Lord's will to crush the Servant (Isa_53:10). Metaphorically, this word can also be used in the same way the English word crushed is used to mean dejected or sad (Isa_19:10).
H1793
ַדָּכּא
dakkā’: An adjective meaning destruction, a crumbled substance, an object crushed into a powder, or pulverized dust. Thus, by extension, dakkā’ can mean humble or contrite. God is the healer and rescuer of one who is crushed in spirit (Psa_34:18 [19]). He also lives with those whose spirits are contrite and humble (Isa_57:15). It comes from the Hebrew verb dāḵā’ (H1792), meaning to crush or to beat to pieces.
H1794
ָדָּכהdāḵāh: A verb meaning to crush, to break in pieces; to crouch. It is most often used figuratively of persons crushed emotionally and spiritually by the wicked (Psa_10:10; KJV, NASB, NKJV, crouches); of persons weighed down and broken by their guilt before the Lord (Psa_38:8 [9]) or seemingly under His judgment (Psa_44:19 [20]); of bones broken by the Lord's imposition of guilt for sins (Psa_51:8 [10]); of a broken spirit as an acceptable sacrifice to God (Psa_51:17 [19]). |
| MoJo wrote: | | Good stuff. thanx for the contribution; gets the juices flowing. |
Great! I'm so pleased!
I just hope this contribution doesn't make you feel too tipsy! 
Lots of Love
Tipsylily 
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3239
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hi lily. I was half way through a reply when my monitor blew up and I lost it.
I got a new one today, but haven't figured out all the adjustments yet. It's quite a bit bigger and I'm not sure I'm going to like it as it involves moving my head from left to right like a tennis match just to read the pages. LOL! 
I'm sure I'll get back to this at some point.
Luv.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | Hi lily. I was half way through a reply when my monitor blew up and I lost it.
I got a new one today, but haven't figured out all the adjustments yet. It's quite a bit bigger and I'm not sure I'm going to like it as it involves moving my head from left to right like a tennis match just to read the pages. LOL!
I'm sure I'll get back to this at some point.
Luv.
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No prob Mo!
Things have been a little hectic with Kids getting back to school so haven't had much time for study.
I'll be back as soon as things slow down a bit. Still like to get online and read when I can though so looking forward to getting your reply.
Love Lil
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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