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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Let's put it this way: Sagan was a complete and utter atheist who did not believe in the supernatural. If your definition of mysticism is compatible with that, then no problem.
But as far as I understand things, mysticism usually refers to the supernatural. |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 840
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Let's put it this way: Sagan was a complete and utter atheist who did not believe in the supernatural. If your definition of mysticism is compatible with that, then no problem.
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Indeed. I have no problem with that.
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But as far as I understand things, mysticism usually refers to the supernatural.
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Exactly. As far as you understand things. I, too, can only speak for myself and my own personal experiences. "Usually refers"? There are many classic mystical texts that contain no reference to magical phenomena. They are no less mystical for that lack.
Take care, my friend.  |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: |
Exactly. As far as you understand things. I, too, can only speak for myself and my own personal experiences. "Usually refers"? There are many classic mystical texts that contain no reference to magical phenomena. They are no less mystical for that lack. |
Ok, it sounds like we are talking about the same thing using slightly different words, so we are in agreement. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I found another great quote by Steven Weinberg:
| Quote: | | "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." |
I've got a similar quote by him in my profile, but I like the 'insult to human dignity' part... |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Good enough for a signature line, I'd say!  |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Good enough for a signature line, I'd say! |
I tried, but it won't work! It says that my signature is too long! |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | I found another great quote by Steven Weinberg:
| Quote: | | "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." |
....... |
Heya P123,
That IS a great quote!
But did Steven mean that it was HIS OWN religion which promulagtes the religious tenet that religion is an insult to human dignity?smile
If he meant it,
I wd love to join Steven's religion!
Now, since SW obviously LOVES his own religion which espouses the doctrine that religion is an insult to human dignity,
then does he not really mean to say that it IS Hatred in any religion that is THE insult to any dignity of any kind?
In the Religion of whole Love
for atheists and hateists and theists,
which transformative Love turns insulting into consulting, smile
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Let's put it this way: Sagan was a complete and utter atheist who did not believe in the supernatural. ..... |
"The evidence, so far at least and laws of Nature aside, does not require a Designer.
Maybe there is one hiding, maddeningly unwilling to be revealed."
-- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
Proverbs 25:
2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:
but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
"The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look Death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides."
Carl Sagan, Billions and Billions p. 215
"We've been looking for life beyond the Earth for 25 years now, and we haven't found it anywhere. There must be something unique about the Earth"
Sagan, 1992.
“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.”
Carl Sagan (1934-1996)
"But amid much elegance and precision,
the details of life and the Universe also exhibit [the opposites of] haphazard, jury-rigged arrangements and much poor planning.
What shall we make of this:
an edifice abandoned early in construction by the architect?"
Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
If CS had only read The Flawed Pot for the laws in flaws and for apple pie recipes.smile
http://www.lovethissite.com/crackedpot/
WitH utter Love for utter Atheists and utter theists,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
But did Steven mean that it was HIS OWN religion which promulagtes the religious tenet that religion is an insult to human dignity?smile
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Well, as far as I know, Weinberg was born Jewish, but became an atheist, so really he doesn't have a religion. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
"The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look Death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides."
Carl Sagan, Billions and Billions p. 215
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Now this is a fantastic quote! I hadn't heard this one yet because I haven't read Billions and Billions. Thanks for posting it! |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | atoz wrote: |
But did Steven mean that it was HIS OWN religion which promulagtes the religious tenet that religion is an insult to human dignity?smile
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Well, as far as I know, Weinberg was born Jewish, but became an atheist, so really he doesn't have a religion. |
But does SW himself believe IN what he himself said,
and does SW want others to believe in what he said?
Yes?
Then what he said is his own relig!
in the Relig of Love for all religs and for the relig on no religion,smile
atoz |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Wow, that's a pretty good quote from C Sagan, I'd say!
Thanks, atoz! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | atoz wrote: |
But did Steven mean that it was HIS OWN religion which promulagtes the religious tenet that religion is an insult to human dignity?smile
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Well, as far as I know, Weinberg was born Jewish, but became an atheist, so really he doesn't have a religion. |
But does SW himself believe IN what he himself said,
and does SW want others to believe in what he said?
Yes?
Then what he said is his own relig!
in the Relig of Love for all religs and for the relig on no religion,smile
atoz |
I don't think it makes sense to label any belief system as a religion. Religion requires some kind of mystical belief in some kind of supernatural being or forces. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="P1234567890"][quote="atoz"] | P1234567890 wrote: |
.....
I don't think it makes sense to label any belief system as a religion.
Religion requires some kind of mystical belief in some kind of supernatural being or forces. |
Atoz:
Well,
CS'
belief in the mysticism of no mysticism,
his belief in the belief of no belief,
his belief in supernaturality of no supernatural,
and
his belief in the force of no force
still qualifies, as his religion, his belief that religion is an insult to human dignity.
In the Religion of Love for all religions, including the religion of no religion, which Love eliminates the one & only false religion: the Religion of Hatred for any religion,
Atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey, I'm all for love, but the problem is that I think love is fundamentally incompatible with religion. |
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