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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Since this apostasy was evident to the Mormons and other false organizations as well, does that mean that wasn't the time the apostasy took over? |
2 Thessalonians 2:
7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Many elements of apostacy with-in the Catholic Church were identified by Luther, and perhaps others, at the onset of, and during the protestant reformation. However, the mystery of lawlessness was-not/is-not revealed, nor was/is the lawless one revealed and thus consumed by the breath of the Lord. The lawless one is still at large. He is at work in the Mormon organization....right? Well, he is at work in the JW organization too.
And as is apparent, by the revealing of Catholic pedophilia here in these latter times (among other things), we understand that grievous wolves are still among the Catholic flock, not sparing even the most innocent of that flock. Well, as it is.....I've recently learned that this same exact situation has occurred among those of the JW flock as well (see the silentlambs web site).
| TBax wrote: | | False logic!!! Just because false organizations claim to have "authority from above" does that mean the true organization doesn't??????? |
Once again, as is all too apparent, the man of lawlessness is still at work. Jesus has not returned yet, and thus has not revealed, nor consumed and destroyed yet, the man of lawlessness.
The JW organization has fallen under the same sort of deception that the man of lawlessness perpetrated upon the Catholic organization. The JW organization was established by false prophets (they predicted things, from a position of claimed sole religious authority, which did not come to pass). All the proofs you have offered in justification of the JW organization are proofs of nothing, as these proofs are used by many latter day up-starts, just like yours, with just as much justification as you think you have in using them.
Many apostite elements were corrected by the protestant reformation, and had a sort of retro effect on the Catholic Church as well (the Catholic authorities did eventually give up many apostite elements identified in the reformation). At this time Christs teachings were re-established, and the Gospel was spread through-out the world like never before thereby establishing the faith throughout the world. Now, it's this established faith, shared by those who are of the Catholic flock, as well as other denominational flocks, that was established at the time of the reformation. It's from this established/re-established faith, here in these latter times, that most obviously, the Mormons and JW's along with Christadelphians, and other latter time start-up's, have departed from....just as predicted by Paul in his letter to Timothy.
TBax, take charge of yourself, the signs I point to, are clearly discernable.
P.S. Jesus did not return invisibly in 1914, and the bible warns of those who would spout this very sort of thing......
Matthew 24:
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
Mark 13:
21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[a]!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
There is no doubt that the "man of lawlessness" is indeed still around now. Other organizations did recognize the apostasy of the Catholic church, but more important, the Bible clearly identifies that church as a failed religious organization. The "man of lawlessness" and the apostasy is indeed revealed! It includes the Catholic church and any who took her doctrine with them (i.e. the trinity, the immortal soul, hellfire, and religious holidays filled with pagan origins and customs but given a "Christian" facade). It includes any who don't try to teach the truth from the Bible as written.
2 Thess 2:7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed,
Indeed, this apostasy was evident in the first century, but ran rampant at the death of the apostles, the "he who is right now acting as a restraint".
| Dust wrote: | | Once again, as is all too apparent, the man of lawlessness is still at work. Jesus has not returned yet, and thus has not revealed, nor consumed and destroyed yet, the man of lawlessness. |
So??? What does that have to do with authority from above? Jesus is the head of the true congregation, even in the first century.
| Dust wrote: | | P.S. Jesus did not return invisibly in 1914, and the bible warns of those who would spout this very sort of thing...... |
Jesus was to be installed as king amidst his enemies. If you believe we are in the "latter times of this system of things", the last days, then Jesus is present in kingdom power! There is a prophesy in the Bible that reveals this very date. Also, Jesus revealed the sign where his true disciples could discern his presence in kingly power.
Matt 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
God's kingdom is indeed ruling, and is about to destroy this system of things. 
Can you see this sign??? |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | There is no doubt that the "man of lawlessness" is indeed still around now. |
I see the pedophilia in the Catholic and JW organizations as a visible manifestation (a sign) that the-man-of-lawlessness is active with-in both these organizations (among other signs as well).
| TBax wrote: | | The "man of lawlessness" and the apostasy is indeed revealed! It includes the Catholic church and any who took her doctrine with them (i.e. the trinity, the immortal soul, hellfire, and religious holidays filled with pagan origins and customs but given a "Christian" facade). |
From a true and practical POV, what has actually been revealed in the Catholic, Mormon, and JW organizations is the PRACTICE of lawlessness, not the man of lawlessness. As it is written.....
Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
So one's belief in the Trinity (or not) is a sign?
Interestingly enough, the JW's fight against the 'Trinity' along side Mormons, Christadelphians, Judaism, and Islam.
To answer my own question......Yes, I see fighting against the 'Trinity' as a sign.
| TBax wrote: | | So??? What does that have to do with authority from above? Jesus is the head of the true congregation, even in the first century. |
True congregation? I don't find this exact term in the Bible, however, Romans 11 does indicate that all Israel will be saved, along with the FULL number of Gentiles who are grafted-in. I suppose you could call this the 'true congregation'.
I also suppose a true congregation here on earth would teach and participate in the following.....
Ephesians 2:
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
A Church teaching and participating in this is a good indication that it's members may be counted among the "true congregation".
| TBax wrote: | | If you believe we are in the "latter times of this system of things", the last days, then Jesus is present in kingdom power! |
Mattew 24:
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
| TBax wrote: | | Can you see this sign??? |
1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
You twist everything you see. 
Apostate websites will provide you with lies and half truths, yet you will soak it up as truth.
You now seem to reject the Catholic church, thus contradicting your former statements, yet believe the doctrine they developed. Whatever.
You consistantly use false logic to "prove" your beliefs can be true. (i.e. Interestingly enough, the JW's fight against the 'Trinity' along side Mormons, Christadelphians, Judaism, and Islam.) False Logic! Just because some false organization fight against one of your teachings, does that make your teaching true? The truth also fights against false doctrine. The Bible fight against it as well.
Deut 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
| Dust wrote: | So one's belief in the Trinity (or not) is a sign?
Interestingly enough, the JW's fight against the 'Trinity' along side Mormons, Christadelphians, Judaism, and Islam.
To answer my own question......Yes, I see fighting against the 'Trinity' as a sign. |
What? So you are creating your own criteria for truth based on the trinity? Is that suppose to make the least bit of sense? The trinity came from the Catholic domination and disseminated to other false religions as well. How you are linking that as a key to truth is totally beyond reason.
| Dust wrote: | | True congregation? I don't find this exact term in the Bible, however, Romans 11 does indicate that all Israel will be saved, along with the FULL number of Gentiles who are grafted-in. |
Who cares if you don't find that exact term in the Bible. Are the Cathoics a true church????? If not, then why do you believe the doctrine they developed? Romans 11 is talking about the "Isreal of God", and shows how those that fall from the truth are replaced with true honest hearted individuals, even gentiles. The full number is 144,000.
Regarding Eph 2, yes, there is no longer a seperation between Jew and Gentile. They are one people under the Christ. The "Isreal of God".
What did you think you were proving with that scripture???
| Dust wrote: | | 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. |
Do you believe Jesus is present in kingdom power? In other words, do you believe Jesus is currently king of God's kingdom? That is what JW's believe as the sign proves.
Jesus gave the sign, and I asked if you can see it. Your answer appears to be no. Is that true? |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | You twist everything you see. |
I am not twisting anything friend. Go back and re-read. I have documented observations, signs if you will, clear signs, that even the most casual observer can see if they would only care to look.
| TBax wrote: | | You now seem to reject the Catholic church. |
Like Martin Luther at the time of the Protestant reformation back in the 16th century, I do not reject the Catholic Church, they have not left the faith.....
but.....
like Jesus Christ, I do reject any lawlessness practiced by the Catholic Church, and those who unrepentantly practice lawlessness.
| dust previously wrote: | | Interestingly enough, the JW's fight against the 'Trinity' along side Mormons, Christadelphians, Judaism, and Islam. |
| TBax wrote: | | False Logic! Just because some false organization fight against one of your teachings, does that make your teaching true? |
The Logic is not false, as I am not trying to prove the truth of the Trinity with my quoted statement. Let me demonstrate.....
My premise is true - These organizations do indeed fight against the teaching of the Trinity.
My conclusion follows from my premise - Fighting against the 'Trinity' is a common thread among these organizations, and thus a sign.
In my biblically based opinion (IMBBO), it's a sign/common thread shared by many false religious organizations, who are outside the faith. The very faith referred to by Paul in his letter to Timothy....
1 Timothy 4
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Now, don't get confused, not all these organizations have departed the faith, but they are all outside MY/the faith. Of course it can be said, in truth, that the Christadelphian, the JW, and the Mormon organizations have left the established historic tenents of faith as taught by the Church (the Catholic Church even) from it's very beginning.
These are the very Christian tenents upheld by those organizations coming out of the Protestant reformation. These organizations did not leave the established faith, they left the established practices of lawlessness....that is....the false doctrines and malpractices within the Roman Catholic Church.
| TBax wrote: | | Are the Cathoics a true church????? |
Though there be lawlessness practiced by SOME in the Catholic church as well as in Protestant churches, God has kept for Himself 7000 (a full Number) who have not bowed the knee to Baal. These are the True Leaders of the True Church (not a Church built by human hands). As I have indicated before TBax, the True Church (the body-of-Christ) transcends denominational lines, and is made of True Believers where ever thay may be.
| TBax wrote: | | Regarding Eph 2, yes, there is no longer a seperation between Jew and Gentile. They are one people under the Christ. The "Isreal of God". |
For you TBax these are mere words, however, for some this is an actual established practice with-in their church, involving real Jews and real Gentiles. Don't short change real Israel or real Jews. Both have suffered much for us. Jesus was an actual Jew....King of the real Jews, and King of those Gentiles who are grafted-in of course.
In the millennium there is going to be a real Israel, and real other nations as well. Don't be fooled by the term 'spiritual Israel'.
| TBax wrote: | | Do you believe Jesus is present in kingdom power? In other words, do you believe Jesus is currently king of God's kingdom? That is what JW's believe as the sign proves. |
What? I don't believe any of your JW gobbly-goop. I believe the Bible without changing a word, as the JW's have done, and so freely do.
This is what I believe.....
1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.
Mattew 24:
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | Like Martin Luther at the time of the Protestant reformation back in the 16th century, I do not reject the Catholic Church, they have not left the faith..... |
So you believe the Catholic church has "not left the faith" despite the fact that 1 Tim 4 shows otherwise? These one who forbid their priests to marry, and command the abstaining of foods on certain days, and had their consciences deadened to commit horrible atrocities have not left the faith? 1 Tim 4 shows these ones have the teachings of demons, yet you blindly see only what you choose to. Again, we are not talking about certain members of the Catholic church, but the Catholic church itself. If you think you can be part of this organization that conforms to the teachings of demons and still be acceptable to God, you would be mistaken!
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
| Dust wrote: | | My conclusion follows from my premise - Fighting against the 'Trinity' is a common thread among these organizations, and thus a sign. |
Yes, why bother with the actuall signs the Bible gives when Dust can make his own based on false logic. You cannot see your false logic, which is the problem. Basically you are saying, (A) since the Christadelphian's teach God is not a trinity, (B) and since they are a false religion, (conclusion) therefore the trinity is true. And so on... False logic. 
| Dust wrote: | | Though there be lawlessness practiced by SOME in the Catholic church as well as in Protestant churches, God has kept for Himself 7000 (a full Number) who have not bowed the knee to Baal. |
Yes. Can you see the number of true worshipers are indeed a minority compared to those who claim to follow God, even back then? What happened to your MAJORITY AND MINORITY "SOME" ARGUMENT? It appears you proved yourself wrong once again.
You say the Catholic church practices lawlessness yet has true worshipers in it? Your teachings constantly contradict your other teachings, and are contrary to scripture. God's true worshipers listen to the warnings given. If they stay they will recieve part of her plagues.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
| Dust wrote: | | In the millennium there is going to be a real Israel, and real other nations as well. Don't be fooled by the term 'spiritual Israel'. |
Yes, lets not be fooled by what the scriptures actually say.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
| Dust wrote: | 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. |
This is where reading in context helps. Jesus was saying he wouldn't be in a specific location on earth (i.e. in the desert), and he wouldn't be hidden away (i.e. in the secret chambers), but that his presence would be globe encircling and his true disciple would discern his presence regardless of where they are (i.e.as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; ). That presence would assist in spreading true light as well. Yet not all would discern it!!!
| Dust wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Do you believe Jesus is present in kingdom power? In other words, do you believe Jesus is currently king of God's kingdom? That is what JW's believe as the sign proves. |
What? I don't believe any of your JW gobbly-goop. |
So you do not believe Jesus is present in kingdom power. Well, I guess that makes sense.
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?
Appearently you cannot see this sign because you are one of these ridiculers. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
You have indeed taught me something. I have always said I understood that unreasonable people will refuse to see things correctly. However, deep down, I suppose I hoped all people could be reasonable. I have learned the lengths people will go to to justify their past coarse and their teachings.
It is evident you can see the application of 1 Tim 4:1-3 fits the Catholic church. It is also evident you refuse to understand the relevance of that because you hold your beliefs that came from that church dear, and you need that scripture to fit my organization. You abandon intellectual honesty so you can be correct. Ironically you use these "teachings of demons", that came from the Catholic church, as a touchstone for proving my organization is wrong.
Also, ironically, you would baselessly accuse me of the very thing you do to justify your beliefs.
I.E.
| Dust wrote: | | TBax, you can do back flips, and jump through hoops, in an effort to defend JW beliefs. |
Back flips??? Of me this accusation is baseless. Your denouncing and then your standing up for the Catholic church is a definite back flip. That wasn't the only time. You contradict one thing you say when you try to justify other things you believe. I do "jump through hoops" as it appears I have to explain extra thing to try to make you understand. You "jump through hoops" to try to justify your position and the teachings you have adopted, that originated with the Catholic church. In the process you contradict yourself.
Ironically, you act as though you are arguing from the high ground, when in reality the scripture you used to try and show JW's are false actually CLEARLY applied to your beliefs. The fact that you refuse to understand the implications of this is quite telling.
Then you have the audacity to misquote Jesus to prove he isn't now ruling as king of God's kingdom. 
Dust. I do wish you could be reasonable. Prehaps some time in the future. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
I know these clearly visible things that I am bringing to your attention, assult certain beliefs that you hold dear. I would ask you not to direct your emotions and attentions about these at me personally, as this will have no benificial effect, but if you direct your emotions and attentions on the things I have highlighted, you will then be moving in the right direction.
| TBax wrote: | So you believe the Catholic church has "not left the faith" despite the fact that 1 Tim 4 shows otherwise? These one who forbid their priests to marry, and command the abstaining of foods on certain days, and had their consciences deadened to commit horrible atrocities have not left the faith? 1 Tim 4 shows these ones have the teachings of demons, yet you blindly see only what you choose to. Again, we are not talking about certain members of the Catholic church, but the Catholic church itself. If you think you can be part of this organization that conforms to the teachings of demons and still be acceptable to God, you would be mistaken!
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If past and present issues/lawless-practices with-in the Catholic organization create some sort of a covering, as it were, for some organizations that have cropped-up here in the latter times, who have desired to distance themselves from certain lawless practices and/or what they see as lawless practices, that's for JC to decide/judge. My job, especially when I am approched by such organizations, is to discern whether they follow the teaching of the bible or not, and/or whether they have left the faith or not.
God chose the Catholic Chruch to hold and preserve His written word for at least ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS. When the KJV went into mass print, due to the invention of the printing press, God's word was put into the hands of common-people/true-believers to hold and preserve through-out the world. TBax, you discredit the Catholic Church in the same way you discredit real Jews who also at one time were selected by God to hold and preserve His word. Apparently, the Catholic organization went the way of the OT Jews for awhile, but the Protestant reformation corrected much of what was wrong with the Catholic Organization, they eventually turned from their sins and repented. CERTAINLY, due to a sort-of retro effect of the Protestant reformation, today the Catholic Church no longer practices the "horrible atrocities" that you, and those like you, love to revel-in, and remind everybody about so-much. Have the Catholics and other organizations faltered since the reformation......it would appear so, in some areas. The Jews too faltered after each and every restoration, but it's not the Catholic organization God has kept; it's the true Church, led by the 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal. These will remain uncorrupted by any organizational corruption. God had 7000 during the time of the OT Jews. These 7000 obviously did not run the OT religious organization that became corrupt. Among these 7000 there was no visible organization that ruled them or kept them.....God kept them. Any validity the Catholic Church or any other organization has today, is due to these 7000 (a full number) that God has kept.
As far as forbiding to marry, and abstaining from food, I am not Catholic, and I am not in the Catholic organization, but I can see with my own eyes that the Catholic Church is the worlds biggest supporter of marrage between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN, and MOST CERTAINLY believes in the sanctity of marriage, and promotes this in a bigger way than any other oganization on the face of the planet. I do know the Catholic clergy themselves volunteer for their positions and take a vow of celibacy as a higher calling in accordance with 1 Corinthians 7. As far as the food issue, I dont know anything other than what my common sense tells me; that is, not eating some types of food on certain days, is not the same as abstaining from certain foods, as practiced by some religions, such as Judaism.
| TBax wrote: | | Yes, why bother with the actuall signs the Bible gives when Dust can make his own based on false logic. You cannot see your false logic, which is the problem. Basically you are saying, (A) since the Christadelphian's teach God is not a trinity, (B) and since they are a false religion, (conclusion) therefore the trinity is true. And so on... False logic. |
False logic is based on a false premise, and/or a conclusion which does not necessarily follow from the premise.
You've twisted my stated premise and you have twisted my stated conclusion. This is what I said....
Interestingly enough, the JW's fight against the 'Trinity' along side Mormons, Christadelphians, Judaism, and Islam. I see fighting against the 'Trinity' as a sign.
The point of my statement is not the truth or the untruth of the trinity; the point is.....fighting against the trinity is a common element among these religious organizations. The various implications, one can draw, may or may not be true, but the statement is true. I make the statement based on my experience in discussing things with those who do not have faith in God and/or His word. (I have found that all of these have at least one thing in common, not only do they not believe in the trinity, they actively fight against it), such as the JW's, who have come up with their very own randition of God's word.....or is it a god's word.
| TBax wrote: | | So you do not believe Jesus is present in kingdom power. Well, I guess that makes sense. |
I told you what I believe, however you actually want to know what I know regarding Jesus.
This is what I know......
Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.
The same goes for what I know about Jesus' whereabouts. He is at the right hand of the Father, He is in me and I am in Him, just as He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, where two or more are gathered in His name there is He, He is preparing many mansions, and He will return to earth......and not in some secert fashion that only JW's know about.....
.....all this I know, for the Bible tells me so!
Just trying to be reasonable. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
That is just it. You are not trying to be reasonable. You are closing your eyes to the truth, and write nonsense.
i.e. | Dust wrote: | | it's the true Church, led by the 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal. |
Blind, blind, blind! Who are the ones leading the Catholic church??? Ones who are forbidden to marry, put forth the abstaining from meats on fridays, and condone bloodshed. 1 Tim couldn't be more clearer that these ones have the teachings of demons, yet you couldn't be more blind and defend them as representing God. Truly pathetic.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
Those "7,000" faithful ones cannot remain in that organization and be acceptable. To be part of that organization that 1 Tim is clearly talking about is not the path of righteousness nor is it intelectually honest to rationalize that scriptural application away.
To think the teachings that came from that organization, that 1 Tim clearly shows are teachings of demons, are the true teachings is obsurd, yet is Dust's reality. You have nothing but confused rationalizations.
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You consistantly use false logic and pretend you don't. Regardless of your rationalizations, your "fighting against the trinity sign" is false logic. Nearly all religion in Christendom as well as the true religion believe Jesus died for us. If one person believes Jesus didn't die for us he could use your false logic as a sign by incerting his false idea into your formula. Thus, including the one true religion among the false. False Logic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt 13:13 looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; 14 and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’
1 Tim 4 clearly shows who it is talking about, yet you are blind to it and embrace those "teachings of demons" that come from those ones. Jesus showed why.
You then deny Jesus presence in kingdom power yet feel justified in ridiculing other who do believe this truth.
2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?
Appearently you cannot see the sign Jesus gave because you are one of these ridiculers.
You can do your back flips and pretend what you say is "clearly visible things that I am bringing to your attention", but your beliefs and explanations shows you are confused and blind and prefer it that way. I have the scriptures on my side, including the sign of Jesus presence. You have false logic and a blind eye. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Blind, blind, blind! Who are the ones leading the Catholic church??? Ones who are forbidden to marry, put forth the abstaining from meats on fridays, and condone bloodshed. 1 Tim couldn't be more clearer that these ones have the teachings of demons, yet you couldn't be more blind and defend them as representing God. Truly pathetic. |
I'm actually of the Protestant persuasion, and am not to overly concerned with those of the Catholic persuasion. From what I can discern, Catholic teaching is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, as are many Protestant teachings. As long as Christ can clearly be discerned as the foundation, I am not going to overly concern myself with what another builds upon that foundation, unless it is sat before me to do so. As it is written......
1 Corinthians 3:
......But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ' |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Oh! SO the one that 1 Tim is clearly talking about "is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ"????
4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
So these ones who fit this to a tee, these ones who have the teachings of demons, hypocritical men who speak lies are the ones we get the truth from the Bible from?
Dust. You are, of coarse, free to believe that if you want. But trying to pass off your justifications as Bible truth doesn't cut it in the real world. You can believe the fiction you created. You are standing on dangerous ground, and 1 Tim proves this.
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Paul writes.....
1 Corinthians 7:
32My desire is to have you free from all anxiety and distressing care. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord--how he may please the Lord;
33But the married man is anxious about worldly matters--how he may please his wife--
35Now I say this for your own welfare and profit, not to put [a halter of] restraint upon you, but to promote what is seemly and in good order and to secure your undistracted and undivided devotion to the Lord.
37But whoever is firmly established in his heart [strong in mind and purpose], not being forced by necessity but having control over his own will and desire, and has resolved this in his heart to keep his own virginity, he is doing well.
In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul is not forbidding marriage. And as I have pointed out the Catholic church does not forbid marriage, in fact I am sure they perform more Christian marriage rites than any other Christian organization on the planet.
It appears that as a matter of organizational preference the Catholics desire their clergy positions to be filled by those who, as Paul puts it, are 'anxious about the things of the Lord', 'undistracted' from worldy matters, and thus not being married have an 'undivided devotion to the Lord'.
Paul clearly indicates, that in-service to the Lord, it is a better position to remain unmarried if one has firmly established this in his heart, not being forced by necessity but having control over his own will and desire, and has resolved this in his heart to keep his own virginity.
Paul is saying it's not necessary to remain unmarried while in-service to the Lord....it's just better.
I do not happen to agree with the Catholic stance on clergy, but I do see their biblical reasoning....they simply want the cream of the crop at the top. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure it works so well in practice. Especially with all the Catholic Priest pedophile allegations..............but hey, JW's have pedophile allegations as well, even though their organization accepts married clergy. Go figure.
Anyway, as far as abstaining from foods, the Catholic tradition of abstaining from certain foods on fridays is no more a doctrine of demons than is 1 Corinthians 7 or fasting.
Now stop pointing to others as a defense, apparently you know not of what you speak. Insted pay particular attention to this portion of 1 Timothy 4...
1BUT THE [Holy] Spirit distinctly and expressly declares that in latter times some will turn away from the faith, giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach,
2Through the hypocrisy and pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared (cauterized)
This pertains specifically, to the JW's, the Mormons, the Christadelphians, and any other so-called Christian group who has turned away from the faith here in THESE LATTER TIMES. In particular these three groups have paid heed to the same seducing spirit here in THESE LATTER TIMES. These three groups all being produced with in the same generation here in THESE LATTER TIMES. The Devil has it easy, he can develop many false ways to salvation, seducing those who will listen (Whatever your cup of tea is. Whatever you want to hear.) However, as God's word tells us, there is only one true way.
3Who forbid people to marry and [teach them] to abstain from [certain kinds of] foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and have [an increasingly clear] knowledge of the truth.
Paul gives these two examples of doctrines-of-demons that were thriving even during Timothy's time. These two examples are not exclusive or inclusive of all that seducing spirits would teach here in THESE LATTER TIMES. Would it have been wise for the Holy Spirit to specifically identify the demon doctrines of the Mormons, Christadelphians, and the JW's ahead of their time? I think not.
Wise up TBax! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | And as I have pointed out the Catholic church does not forbid marriage, |
Oh! So the Catholic priests can get married?
Yes Dust. Your blindness is obvious.
Wise up TBax!???????????????
Do you know what irony is? You are justifying the Catholic church's actions, which perfectly fit 1 Tim 4, so you can apply it to my organization. Further you refuse to be reasonable about the meaning of " in subsequent seasons", which is translated as "latter times" or "in later periods of times". They all mean the same thing except in your mind in order for your house of cards to stand. 
Wise up indeed!!!
You can close your eyes to the truth, but your attempts to nullify and alter this scripture is lame.
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Why can't you get this?
1 Tim 4 clearly shows who it is talking about, yet you are blind to it and embrace those "teachings of demons" that come from those ones. Jesus showed why.
Matt 13:13 looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; 14 and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’
Yes. One of us needs to wise up, indeed!
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
Many scoffers have come, and are still yet to come here in these end times. The bible makes it clear that the end times is the period of time, in the entire history of the world, that started with the birth of Jesus, and thus every year from 1 AD till the present is biblically understood to be the end time or end times.
1 Peter 1:20
It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you.
1 John 2:18
Boys (lads), it is the last time (hour, the end of this age). And as you have heard that the antichrist [he who will oppose Christ in the guise of Christ] is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, which confirms our belief that it is the final (the end) time.
As to Paul's use of the term 'latter times' ('hysteros kairos' in Greek), He only uses this exact term one time, in-fact, not that it would change it's meaning, but my research shows that the use of the term 'latter' occures but one time in the entire KJV. It is at this point TBax that not having 100% faith in the providence of God has failed you. Insted of believing literally in the meaning of the English term 'latter', you choose to set this term aside and replace it with a term that your iching ears prefer to hear....that is....'in subsequent seasons'. You then accuse me of being unreasonable, because I will not allow you to make that substitution. At this point you have to ask yourself....'where exactly is dust laying his faith?'.
Now, we have all ready discussed this a bit, but I'll cover it again. Latter times, as used by Paul in his letter to Timothy, is expressly stated by the Holy Spirit. It is true that every subsequent generation after Paul wrote this letter to Timothy, could DURING THEIR TIME consider current events as possibly being the 'latter times' of which Paul refered, but now with the benefit of history, and by the use of common sense, we today understand that 1700 years ago WAS NOT and ARE NOT the latter times, as you have tried to assert.
As it is, both you and I believe strongly that we are in the latter part of the end times. And that, my friend, is reasonable!
I've given you three prime examples of those who here in these end times have left the faith. It is you who refuse to be reasonable about that.....mainly because you deceive yourself. Insted of applying the term that God Himself gave you to understand in your own English speaking tongue, you throw it out and replace it with another term that would have you believe that 1700 years ago is the 'latter times'. That's ridiculous. It's as ridiculous as your 1914 baloney, which was probably derived in much the same manner......by twisting and bemoaning the word of God. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | The bible makes it clear that the end times is the period of time, in the entire history of the world, that started with the birth of Jesus, and thus every year from 1 AD till the present is biblically understood to be the end time or end times. |
Incorrect. There were two end times spoken of in the NT. If what you are saying is true, then Jesus wouldn't have needed to give a sign, but could simply say "they are now". He didn't, because you are incorrect. The two end times were the end of the jewish system of things, which ended in 70 C.E. and the end of Satan's entire system of things which is still future.
I appreciate your attempt at research, but sinse you don't have all the facts you are confused and your conclusion are way off.
Even if you were correct, if the last days extended from 1 C.E. to today, and if you are correct that "latter times" refers to the last days, then the period of the "latter times" would be from 1C.E. to today, and your point would still be invalid. The Catholic church did indeed exist during that period, hence are still this apostate that 1 Tim clearly speaks of. 
| Dust wrote: | | Now, we have all ready discussed this a bit, but I'll cover it again. Latter times, as used by Paul in his letter to Timothy, is expressly stated by the Holy Spirit. |
Yes, we have discussed this. The literal word for word from the inspired Greek is "in subsequent seasons". The literal meaning of the Greek words is "in subsequent seasons". You believing the translators of the KJV were inspired of God is fallacious. But that doesn't really matter. "Latter times" carries the idea of "in subsequent seasons". "In later periods of time" carries that same idea. When speaking of the future, "latter" means subsequent!!! You not getting this is quite telling.
latter-1 a: belonging to a subsequent time or period
| Dust wrote: | | Insted of believing literally in the meaning of the English term 'latter', |
I don't have a problem with that term. However you do realize the inspired NT wasn't in english, don't you? However, I believe "latter" can be used. I don't see a problem with it. The problem comes from your interpretation of the meaning. You cannot comprehend that the 4th century is indeed a "latter time" from when Paul wrote to Timothy.
The irony here is, you put forth so much time in trying to prove JW's are false, and you need this scripture to base your conclusions on, that you blind yourself to the true meaning. A meaning that directly shows your beliefs are from the teachings of demons. You provided the very scripture that proves your faith is misplaced, yet are totally blind to it because you have to be correct, otherwise your house of cards tumbles.  
Dust, do try a little intellectual honesty here. Your life depends on it. Your justifications don't cut it.
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