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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 513
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 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Glad you are back bitterlily, i need help.
| Quote: | bitterlily said:
So you see? We will be judged by our Faith and our Works because they are one and the same thing! |
I think you are on to something, Ga 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Works of love done in faith are considered part of faith, and are what is in view when the scripture says we are judged by our works, meaning works of faith, meaning faith is still the primary way we are judged, we are still choosing faith to be saved by, not the merit of works.
When you (trettep) make the statement (good works are required for salvation) it sounds like you are saying our works merit our salvation, this is a very obscene thing, whether you mean it that way or not. A lot of religious people do mean it that way, out of 10 commentaries i looked at some of them did, some of them were were very vague, others did not, most notable, John Calvin, not that he is infallible by any means. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | Glad you are back bitterlily, i need help.
| Quote: | bitterlily said:
So you see? We will be judged by our Faith and our Works because they are one and the same thing! |
I think you are on to something, Ga 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Works of love done in faith are considered part of faith, and are what is in view when the scripture says we are judged by our works, meaning works of faith, meaning faith is still the primary way we are judged, we are still choosing faith to be saved by, not the merit of works.
When you (trettep) make the statement (good works are required for salvation) it sounds like you are saying our works merit our salvation, this is a very obscene thing, whether you mean it that way or not. A lot of religious people do mean it that way, out of 10 commentaries i looked at some of them did, some of them were were very vague, others did not, most notable, John Calvin, not that he is infallible by any means. |
All works are judged whether they be good works or those of evil. But Good works ARE indeed required to be saved. JimD, I'm not saying that the works belong to us though we must be the ones performing them. So when we perform them they belong to Jesus. Our works are indeed evil which is why I'm not referring to those works. I'm specifically referring to the works of Jesus the Christ that we MUST perform in order to be saved. All works are going to be judged - again God's Word specifically says this. So as I said before it is very IMPORTANT to understand that we must perform Good works.
Paul |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: | Faith = God is Love and if I am dwelling in Love I am dwelling in God!
Faith by Works =
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to not resist evil (done to me) I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to turn the other cheek when the other has been slapped I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to give my cloak to the person who takes my coat I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to go 2 miles when I have been asked to go 1 I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to give or lend to all those who ask I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to Love my enemies and bless them when they curse me I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to pray for those who despitefully use me, and persecute me I will be dwelling in God!
So you see? We will be judged by our Faith and our Works because they are one and the same thing!
In this is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17
Love Always
Bitterlily |
Bitterlily, the greatest caution I can give you is to beware of anyone that attempts to persuade you that you can't do what is perfect. Many will come along with half the message. They will tell you how worthless your own works are to salvation but fail to tell you how to overcome those worthless works via Faith in Jesus the Christ. You see the very WAY in which He saves us is to have us perform His Works. Anyone that attempts to persuade you that His Works are not required is misleading you most likely in their own ignorance of what God's Word says on the subject. We are to have His mind. He is to be in us. We are to pick up our cross and follow Him. All of these things are telling us to perform His Works. You mentioned Love and that IS His works. Love is His Works. But it isn't the love that man exhibits which is to only love those that love you but it is a love that loves those that hate you and persecute you. It is a love of enemies. Read the parable of the talents. Understand that we must increase in these Good Works. We must be making efforts to do God's Will and that can only happen by Faith.
Ask questions - let's discuss.
Your servant in Christ,
Paul |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Goodmorning all,
JimD wrote:
| Quote: | I think you are mistaken when you say faith (requires) works. James is not saying we have to work for salvation, but that works will naturally follow our salvation.
There is a huge difference. |
You are right JimD. Works of faith and love are a heart matter. Works of the flesh are of the Law. We are not carnal or fleshly, we are born of the spirit and not bound by the law.
When I help my neighbor I look for nothing in return, not even eternal life. When I help my neighbor it is because I am born of love.
Truly lilly (I love the name lilly) from your quote from I John 4:17, "As he is so are we in this world."
In praying for wisdom in the smallest matters I am reminded that wisdom comes solely from the Word.
II Peter I:3-8, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Hello trettep, I am quite sure your intentions are not bad but you seem to have fallen into the trap of taking a scripture here and there and interpreting them in a wooden literal fashion and out of context with the rest of the bible. This is an extremely common error and one I may be guilty of myself. Regardless, we can continue to discus this issue, but until the Lord shows us our error, we will continue to see it the way we do, we have no choice, we cannot agree just for the sake of harmony but I do respect you and your ability to reason and do not doubt your intelligence or your salvation at all. God Bless, JimD |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | Hello trettep, I am quite sure your intentions are not bad but you seem to have fallen into the trap of taking a scripture here and there and interpreting them in a wooden literal fashion and out of context with the rest of the bible. This is an extremely common error and one I may be guilty of myself. Regardless, we can continue to discus this issue, but until the Lord shows us our error, we will continue to see it the way we do, we have no choice, we cannot agree just for the sake of harmony but I do respect you and your ability to reason and do not doubt your intelligence or your salvation at all. God Bless, JimD |
JimD, give me an example of what I said that was taken out of context or read in error? Otherwise, what other choice can I make but to disregard your statement? Surely, you understand that if I told you that you simply read something in error and quoted out of context that you would disregard what was said also because you have nothing that you can regard without an explaination.
Paul |
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| trettep, please disregard my statement. JimD |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | trettep, please disregard my statement. JimD |
Will do, JimD.
Paul |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | Bitterlily, the greatest caution I can give you is to beware of anyone that attempts to persuade you that you can't do what is perfect. Many will come along with half the message. They will tell you how worthless your own works are to salvation but fail to tell you how to overcome those worthless works via Faith in Jesus the Christ. You see the very WAY in which He saves us is to have us perform His Works. Anyone that attempts to persuade you that His Works are not required is misleading you most likely in their own ignorance of what God's Word says on the subject. We are to have His mind. He is to be in us. We are to pick up our cross and follow Him. All of these things are telling us to perform His Works. You mentioned Love and that IS His works. Love is His Works. But it isn't the love that man exhibits which is to only love those that love you but it is a love that loves those that hate you and persecute you. It is a love of enemies. Read the parable of the talents. Understand that we must increase in these Good Works. We must be making efforts to do God's Will and that can only happen by Faith.
Ask questions - let's discuss. |
Sorry again for the delay in answering.
I agree with everything you have said here and understand the caution you are talking about as well. But before coming to this point I had to face the fact that I of myself could do nothing. My works were as filthy rags which are the works I hear JimD talking about. I think it would help if we could make a clear distinction between the works of God and our works. Here's my attempt to make that distinction.
God's works = New Man's Works
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
Just like Jesus said of himself, so are we (supposed to be) in the world:
Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. John 14:10
I believe that when we first come to Christ we can't tell the difference between God's works and our works, and as far as we are concerned all good works are God's works. But over time the Sword of the Word begins to divide between the Works of the Soul and Works of the Spirit, the Old Man's Works and the New Man's Works, God's Works and our Works and we begin to discern the difference, causing us (gradually but surely) to forsake our works and walk in God's Works. Until such a point that as Jesus was (and is  ), so are we in the world:
Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that TRUSTS in me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:10-12
Note what Paul said:
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also IN POWER, and IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, and in much assurance; as you know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 1 Thessalonians 1:5
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with PERSUASIVE words of man's wisdom, but in MANIFESTATION of THE SPIRIT and of POWER: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the POWER OF GOD. But we speak wisdom among them that are mature: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nothing: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained before the world unto OUR GLORY: 1 Corinthians 2:3-7
Not in word only but also IN POWER and in the HOLY SPIRIT...
Not with PERSUASIVE words of man's wisdom, but in MANIFESTATION of THE SPIRIT and of POWER...
That your Faith (PERSUASION;RELIANCE;BELIEF;CONVICTION) Should not stand in the wisdom of men, BUT IN THE POWER OF GOD...
I believe the reason we see so much division and denominationalism amongst Christians is because much of our faith stands in the Wisdom of Men rather than the Power of God. The Works of Men rather than the Works of God. I am convinced that when we are doing the Works of God we need not persuade anyone because the Holy Spirit miraculously witnesses and persuades those He is calling at any given time. A verse that has always stuck out to me is this:
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad. Matthew 12:30
I believe this is describing the Works of God, the Works of the Spirit. IOW
He that is not with my SPIRIT is against my SPIRIT; and he that gathers not with My SPIRIT scatters abroad. Matthew 12:30
IOW:
My sheep hear MY VOICE (not man's voice), and I know them, and they follow me (MY SPIRIT): John 10:27
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him(scatter abroad): for they know not the voice of strangers. John 10:5
So what you reckon?
I reckon it's my bedtime! 
Nigh Nighs 
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Yes Bitterlily, the New mans works are His Works. We must perform those works in order to be saved.
Paul |
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Hello bitterlily |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | Hello bitterlily |
Hi JimD
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: | | JimD wrote: | | Hello bitterlily |
Hi JimD |
Have you been following the post of Zathrus? He is doing a great job at explaining faith and works, much better than i can. Love, JimD |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3035
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: |
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The 7th day sabbath, is part of the New Covenant......
Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.
20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
New Covenant promise......
Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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