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CAN ANYONE = = KEEP THE 10-COMMANDMENTS?

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Silver Surfer
King Kong

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2708

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject:

Yehushuan wrote:

Silver Surfer wrote:

Love, is the motivating factor for keeping all the commandments, including the 7th day sabbath.

And do you include circumcision in that list of commandments?

Yehu

No....Circumcision and animal sacrifices were abolished, just as the Bible says they were....
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Silver Surfer
King Kong

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2708

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject:

Zathrus wrote:

Silver Surfer wrote:

Quote:

What does scripture really indicate made them perfect before God?

14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Brother Surfer,
this isn't any kind of answer. This is another passage telling us that God has those who are without blame before Him. I asked on what basis are they without blame.

They have had to live a life like Jesus Christ did.

Quote:

Unless you're trying to say they are without blame just because they are 7th Day Adventists?

Being an SDA is no guarantee for eternal life.

The ONLY SDA that will get eternal life is the one who lives their lives after the pattern Jesus Christ set forth, for all Christians to follow.

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002

Posts: 2207

Location: WI USA

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:33 am Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

They have had to live a life like Jesus Christ did.

Then I presume such men of faith as Moses, Abraham, and David will not be among them?

Silver Surfer
King Kong

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2708

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject:

Zathrus wrote:

Silver Surfer wrote:

They have had to live a life like Jesus Christ did.

Then I presume such men of faith as Moses, Abraham, and David will not be among them?

We already know Moses was raised from the dead, before Jesus Christ was.

Yehushuan
King Kong

Joined: 30 Mar 2006

Posts: 2465

Location: Charismatic

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:13 am Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

Yehushuan wrote:

And do you include circumcision in that list of commandments?

No....Circumcision and animal sacrifices were abolished, just as the Bible says they were....

So the list of “commandments” can change? Or is it that “my commandments” ONLY means the Ten Darbar in Ex. 20, and that everything else has been erased?

Would you say that the Ten are part of the Old Covenant?

Yehu

PS: Isn't it more likely that by "my commandments" Jesus actually meant His own? (as in the Sermon on the Mount?) Rather than the Law of Moses?

Dakryn
Tadpole

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 25

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: amazed

Through 7 pages of debate I am unsure why the possibility of a [both] option hasn't been discussed much.

#1 No one except Yahushuah has kept the entire law their entire life:

Quote:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

By the way, theres more commandments than the first 10 Wink

Those are included in the deal. I also challange along with that someone to pull scripture showing that Yahushuah or YHWH ordained a different day for worship than the 7th day.

#2 Faith and Works go hand in hand. You won't have one without the other. If you believe the stove is hot and will burn you, you won't put your hand on the burner. However if you say you know the stove is hot and touch the burner anyway, what good was that "faith"?

Quote:

Jas 1:21 Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror:
Jas 1:24 for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.

Quote:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
Jas 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Jas 2:25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

Quote:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,
Rom 4:7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin.
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision:
Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision; that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;
Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.
Rom 4:16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
Rom 4:20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him;
Rom 4:24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.

Both sides prefer to pick one verse over another instead of putting them together.It takes both, thats why both are there.You cannot grab one verse, pull it out of context and create theology.It takes the whole thing.

Yahushuah never got rid of His/His Father's perfect law, he fulfilled it. I am confused at how fulfilled came to mean done away with. Done away with would fall under destroy.

Quote:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

When you go on to read after this not only did He not destroy the law, he went into to greater detail showing that it was not merely about the "letter" of the law, but the condition of the heart, which goes back to Faith AND Works.

Quote:

2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.

They didn't have a "NT" when this was written, so what does that leave?

Quote:

Psa 19:7 The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple.

The Scriptures never call the law imperfect. The covenant was imperfect and that was because of US.

Quote:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

The author of Hebrews qoutes this passage in:

Quote:

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

This is very clear that the [old] covenant will be replaced with the new covenant but it hasnt happened [u]yet[ui]. It will happen when the qualifiers in Jeremiah 31:34-34 are met, which is when Yahushuah returns to earth for the millennial reign.

Therefore, we are still to OBEY YHWH. Yahushuah never taught anything different.

Quote:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Last time I checked, all things haven't been accomplished yet.

Last edited by Dakryn on Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dakryn
Tadpole

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 25

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: addendum

As far as the original question, can anyone keep the 10 Commandments?
Not only can it be done, the entire Torah can be kept. Surely not from birth, we are capable of and do sin before we can speak. However, once we are in a relationship with YHWH and have accepted Yahushuah as our permanent sin sacrifice, we CAN keep the entire Torah. To claim it is impossible is to call YHWH a liar.

Quote:

Deu 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

To answer Yehu, nothing was abolished. The confusion over animal sacrifice and circumcision for instance is because of the either/or arguement.

#1 All animal sacrifices were not elimated. Only the sin sacrifice, and that is because Yahushuah's is still in effect, as the former animal sin sacrifices were merely a picture of what was to come. There are many non-sin sacrifices. However, these sacrfices can only be done in Jerusalem in the temple, which won't exist for believers until the millennial reign. (And during the millennial reign, Torah will be the law all over the earth, read the prophets).

#2 The circumcision arguement is purely over whether that one act is required for salvation. Of course it is not.If you get circumcised purely so you can "be saved" you are wasting your time and skin. However, we have to go back to Faith & Works. Its an all inclusive deal. No one element is a make-or-breaker.

#3 Yahushuah's commandments cannot contradict his Father's. Since they are one they are also His. The "Law of Moses" (the Torah) was divinely inspired and is the perfect Law of YHWH.

You cannot confuse Judaism with YHWH's given law. Judaism is just another religion with man's additions to what YHWH said.

Silver Surfer
King Kong

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2708

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: addendum

This bears repeating.....

Dakryn wrote:

When Jesus said: 'go and sin no more' (John 5:14 & 8:11).......He meant what HE said.

Jesus meant, "Yes, you have already committed sin, but I can help you, to go and sin no more".

jack
Sea Monkey

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 14

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject:

Hi Roger, Well it looks like tou are getting your feed back My thoughts God is the same now and forever and there is only one way to live with Him, his way and when you fail you answere to Him so if you want to look ahead better learn the rules. If you think you can lie steal and not worship then you are in the wrong place , His place , if you dont think you can learn then you better go with thoes who like your way instead of His. cause He aint gonna change. Love, Jack

Nobby
Board - Admin

Joined: 16 Sep 2002

Posts: 5049

Location: Missouri

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject:

Rodger's last post was the 10th of May 2006! Sorry Jack, Nobby

jack
Sea Monkey

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 14

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:14 am Post subject:

I should pay atention to old messages thanx Nobby Jack LU2

Silver Surfer
King Kong

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2708

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:59 am Post subject:

jack wrote:

I should pay atention to old messages thanx Nobby
Jack LU2

I wonder...is this why people do not think the Old testament is not valid anymore, because it is old ?

The same argument can be made for the New testament also.....after all, it is some 2000 years old !

jack
Sea Monkey

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 14

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:56 am Post subject:

Hi Silver Surfer, OLD TESTIMENT It gives us more understanding of the ways of God. This we need to learn so our desire fits His desire. His son says "I didnt change the law" but by dying for us He made way for us to live , but we still have to have the desire to obey His rules and keep on changing so we fail less and get more like Him as we enjoy eternal life with our King. Soon He will give all this up to His Father but will remain our brother. Love , Jack

Silver Surfer
King Kong

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2708

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:12 am Post subject:

jack wrote:

Hi Silver Surfer, OLD TESTIMENT
It gives us more understanding of the ways of God. This we need to learn so our desire fits His desire. His son says "I didnt change the law" but by dying for us He made way for us to live , but we still have to have the desire to obey His rules and keep on changing so we fail less and get more like Him as we enjoy eternal life with our King. Soon He will give all this up to His Father but will remain our brother. Love , Jack

Mankind needs to understand what Love is...God's definition of what Love is.

That definition, is the basis of all the 10 commandments as found, in Exodus 20:3-17.

When Jesus mentioned the keeping of the commandments by Christians, HE also interjected the word Love into that statement......

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Pete
Tiger

Joined: 31 May 2006

Posts: 812

Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:24 am Post subject:

Silver Surfer wrote:

When Jesus mentioned the keeping of the commandments by Christians, HE also interjected the word Love into that statement......

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

SS,
I think before you get carried away with the commandments, you'd better spend a little time on a more important issue, and that is which God do you worship, the God of the Bible, or the false God of Trinitarianism?

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