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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | Sounds like you, bitterlily & I understand this pretty good, it is starting to make my head spin, discussing it so much.
I am sick with a cold right now, so maybe thats what is doing it??? Love, JimD |
Jas 5:14 And if one is sick, let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray for him, and anoint him with oil in the name of our Lord:
Jas 5:15 and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and our Lord will raise him up; and if sins have been committed by him, they will be forgiven him.
I have come to believe that verse is not about annointing someone with some physical oil. But rather that the oil is the Spirit. It means to provide someone the Spirit. So if you understand what I just said about that verse then you have been given some annointing.
God's Word is Wonderful!
Paul |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
I get the sneaking suspicion that we are actually saying the same thing!  Like here for instants:
| trettep wrote: | | I see Grace as "favor". We ACCESS Grace via Faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Paul did teach that we had to do something in order to be saved. In fact, Paul taught salvation via works. Not our works but the works of the Christ - His works. |
To me, the Works of Christ = God's Grace
IOW We can't do the Works of Christ without the Grace of God doing it in Us. You said above that you see Grace as "favor" but do you see it as God literally doing "Favors"? If not, then herein lies our difference. I wonder if the reason we are struggling to see eye to eye on this is because we are looking at different spectrums of the same thing. Let me explain what I mean. I will need to share some personal details so please bear with me.
Before the Lord came into my life I showed no mercy. I found it was the best way to deal with my hurt and pain when people offended me. I would cut them off, never speak in their presence and basically treat them like they were dead to me. If they didn't get the message to leave me alone and offended me again, then all hell would break lose and I would become a raging lunatic!  My intention was never to hurt anyone but to protect myself from injury. And believe it or not, In my heart I never hated the offender as much as my behaviour implied (that sounds crazy I know  ). You've heard the saying "a wolf in sheeps clothing"? Well I was more like a lamb in wolves clothing who created a tough and intimidating exterior while the inside was all soft and mushy.
Anyway, this was the state of my Old Man when the Lord came knocking. And 8 years later, that Old Man hasn't changed much, his natural extinct is to go into Lockdown mode and prepare for war. The example I gave 2 posts ago show that I still instinctively do it when I feel offended. The difference is that although no person can reach me in this state, the Lord can and He does. The first thought I have of Him causes me to run to Him for refuge confessing all the evil of my inner ways and He forgives me, comforts me, heals me, and strengthens me to the point that I don't recognise the person that comes out of Lockdown. Never have I possessed the power in myself to do this. I know it is the Lord and the abundance of Grace that He gives me to Overcome ONE of my greatest weaknesses as it is written:
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:9
I have learned that the Lord will do the most amazing things in the areas of our life that we feel the weakest. For example, the Lord gave me the Grace to share the gospel with an old work colleague that had previously experienced 3 years of my Lockdown behaviour, while He witnessed to her in miraculous ways about everything that I told her. Now, she is the most intimate friend I have ever had and I am ashamed to think I ever treated her the way I did. She is also my sister in the Lord. She has been the greatest example to me of what the Lord can do with our weaknesses.
Recall that the Apostle Paul asked the Lord 3 times that his weakness be taken away from Him which shows that he was dwelling on it and deeply troubled by it. And it was only once the Lord answered that Paul was comforted and content to dwell with it, knowing that the Lord would supply an abundance of Grace whenever he came face to face with it. The same is true of Us, so we need not be ashamed to admit our weaknesses and our fears. He will help us Overcome them all!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62vC_jfPisc
(Listen carefully to the first verse...Beautiful! )
Much Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 639
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you trettep. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: | Hi Paul,
I get the sneaking suspicion that we are actually saying the same thing! Like here for instants:
| trettep wrote: | | I see Grace as "favor". We ACCESS Grace via Faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Paul did teach that we had to do something in order to be saved. In fact, Paul taught salvation via works. Not our works but the works of the Christ - His works. |
To me, the Works of Christ = God's Grace
IOW We can't do the Works of Christ without the Grace of God doing it in Us. You said above that you see Grace as "favor" but do you see it as God literally doing "Favors"? If not, then herein lies our difference. I wonder if the reason we are struggling to see eye to eye on this is because we are looking at different spectrums of the same thing. Let me explain what I mean. I will need to share some personal details so please bear with me.
Before the Lord came into my life I showed no mercy. I found it was the best way to deal with my hurt and pain when people offended me. I would cut them off, never speak in their presence and basically treat them like they were dead to me. If they didn't get the message to leave me alone and offended me again, then all hell would break lose and I would become a raging lunatic! My intention was never to hurt anyone but to protect myself from injury. And believe it or not, In my heart I never hated the offender as much as my behaviour implied (that sounds crazy I know ). You've heard the saying "a wolf in sheeps clothing"? Well I was more like a lamb in wolves clothing who created a tough and intimidating exterior while the inside was all soft and mushy.
Anyway, this was the state of my Old Man when the Lord came knocking. And 8 years later, that Old Man hasn't changed much, his natural extinct is to go into Lockdown mode and prepare for war. The example I gave 2 posts ago show that I still instinctively do it when I feel offended. The difference is that although no person can reach me in this state, the Lord can and He does. The first thought I have of Him causes me to run to Him for refuge confessing all the evil of my inner ways and He forgives me, comforts me, heals me, and strengthens me to the point that I don't recognise the person that comes out of Lockdown. Never have I possessed the power in myself to do this. I know it is the Lord and the abundance of Grace that He gives me to Overcome ONE of my greatest weaknesses as it is written:
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:9
I have learned that the Lord will do the most amazing things in the areas of our life that we feel the weakest. For example, the Lord gave me the Grace to share the gospel with an old work colleague that had previously experienced 3 years of my Lockdown behaviour, while He witnessed to her in miraculous ways about everything that I told her. Now, she is the most intimate friend I have ever had and I am ashamed to think I ever treated her the way I did. She is also my sister in the Lord. She has been the greatest example to me of what the Lord can do with our weaknesses.
Recall that the Apostle Paul asked the Lord 3 times that his weakness be taken away from Him which shows that he was dwelling on it and deeply troubled by it. And it was only once the Lord answered that Paul was comforted and content to dwell with it, knowing that the Lord would supply an abundance of Grace whenever he came face to face with it. The same is true of Us, so we need not be ashamed to admit our weaknesses and our fears. He will help us Overcome them all!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62vC_jfPisc
(Listen carefully to the first verse...Beautiful! )
Much Love
Bitterlily |
Hi Bitterlily, thanks for sharing and confessing so much more about you. I want you to know that I'm a sinner no better than anyone else. I consider myself responsible as a murderer of Jesus the Christ. With such a grevious sin we shouldn't be ashamed to confess our sins to others that acknowledge their evil. We are all born into the same nature prone to the same sins each and all of us. But when we put on that which is the divine nature we overcome and destroy that carnal nature. I think you were discussing these verses regarding Paul's thorn in the flesh:
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
The thorn in the flesh is suffering itself from what I have come to learn. Paul's thorn in the flesh is similiar to the thorns in the flesh of our Lord Jesus and signify that with much suffering comes our journey in following the Lord.
We should understand that the suffering is appointed for our journey and benefits us.
So when we suffer the suffering is to our crown of thorns.
Paul |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3404
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | | I consider myself responsible as a murderer of Jesus the Christ. |
I've heard people say this before and IMO, this is the wrong thing to say.
In support of my opinion, I look at the following;
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: |
I've heard people say this before and IMO, this is the wrong thing to say.
In support of my opinion, I look at the following;
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].
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Hi Mojo, if I didn't kill the Christ then I haven't killed my Lamb.
Paul |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | | Hi Bitterlily, thanks for sharing and confessing so much more about you. I want you to know that I'm a sinner no better than anyone else. I consider myself responsible as a murderer of Jesus the Christ. With such a grevious sin we shouldn't be ashamed to confess our sins to others that acknowledge their evil. We are all born into the same nature prone to the same sins each and all of us. But when we put on that which is the divine nature we overcome and destroy that carnal nature. |
Dear Paul,
I think I've finally been given the eyes to be able to see eye to eye with you. Remember how I said:
| bitterlily wrote: | | I wonder if the reason we are struggling to see eye to eye on this is because we are looking at different spectrums of the same thing. |
I had seen the extreme end of the spectrum of God's Grace working in times of great weakness. But what I hadn't seen until last night was the more subtle workings of God's Grace. IOW the areas of our life that we find it almost effortless to show love to our neighbor. I've often struggled with doubt that He was working in these situations because the things I had seen Him do in extreme circumstances weren't present. That was until last night, when He showed me in many different ways how he can be moving in the hearts of people around us and we don't even realize! It has helped to increase my faith in the little things which I was clearly lacking. I've been reassured that even when I think He is not present with me and I am worrying that I have fallen from His Grace, He is quietly working His wonders and pouring His Love out to passers by. Beautiful!
It has also helped me to see that even the smallest touch of Love felt by us or others, is God's Grace working quietly in the World.
| Quote: | I think you were discussing these verses regarding Paul's thorn in the flesh:
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
The thorn in the flesh is suffering itself from what I have come to learn. Paul's thorn in the flesh is similiar to the thorns in the flesh of our Lord Jesus and signify that with much suffering comes our journey in following the Lord.
We should understand that the suffering is appointed for our journey and benefits us.
So when we suffer the suffering is to our crown of thorns. |
Yes, I agree! I was doing another word study on Grace a few days ago and discovered a few verses (misquoted IMHO) that it really is God's Grace that empowers us to endure suffering just as it equips us to do all things that Jesus commanded us to do:
For this is GRACE, if a man for conscience toward God endures grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when you be buffeted for your faults, you shall take it patiently? but if, when you do well, and suffer for it, you take it patiently, this is GRACE with God. For even to this were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judges righteously: 1 Peter 2:19-23
For if you love them who love you, what GRACE have you? for sinners also love those that love them. And if you do good to them who do good to you, what GRACE have you? for sinners also do even the same. And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what GRACE have you? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your lap. For with the same measure that you measure it shall be measured to you again. Luke 6:32-38
The reason why I left in these last verses of Luke is because of the part which says:
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your lap...
I could be wrong but I think this is talking about SALT! And represents GRACE:
Let your speech be always with GRACE, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. Colossians 4:6
I just wanna refresh our minds with what Jesus said about SALT:
You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt has lost its savor, how shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Matthew 5:13
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Mark 9:49-50
Salt is good: but if the salt has lost its taste, how shall it be restored? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dung hill; but men cast it out. He that has ears to hear, let him hear. Luke 14:34-35
The OC Law which was a shadow of good things to come (Heb 10:1) says this about SALT:
And every offering of your grain offering shall you season with SALT; neither shall you allow the SALT of the covenant of your God to be lacking from your grain offering: with all your offerings you shall offer SALT. Leviticus 2:13
Speaking to Aaron (The High Priest ) the Lord says:
All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given you, and your sons and your daughters with you, by a statute forever: it is a covenant of SALT forever before the LORD unto you and to your descendants with you. And the LORD spoke unto Aaron, You shall have no inheritance in their land, neither shall you have any part among them: I am your part and your inheritance among the children of Israel. Numbers 18:19-20
There are some amazing verses surrounding these. And the Heave offering? I'm not quite sure what that is yet but I think there is definitely something hiding in that. I'm just guessing but I think it might have something to do with the Right hand of Fellowship. 
Anyway, thanks for sticking around Paul.
Much Appreciated!
Lots of Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi JimD,
Sorry that I have been able to follow through on the scriptures I was going to give you about the salvation of those who have not been introduced to the word.
I have had to go back to Isaiah and reread and also many other books so that I don't get a contradiction. It is taking more time than I thought.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 639
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Hi JimD,
Sorry that I have not been able to follow through on the scriptures I was going to give you about the salvation of those who have not been introduced to the word.
I have had to go back to Isaiah and reread and also many other books so that I don't get a contradiction. It is taking more time than I thought.
In Christ, Judy |
Hi Nana, i was wondering what happened to you.
God Bless You, JimD |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi JimD,
I see you are studing the Covenants and the law. Perhaps I would like to join in, if that is okay with you guys.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 639
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | [quote="nana"]
I see you are studing the Covenants and the law. Perhaps I would like to join in, if that is okay with you guys. |
The more the merrier JimD |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings,
I have been reading over some of the replys in this post and would like to give my opinion on the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 7 says that in the flesh is no good thing.
Romans 9:5 says, "...concerning the flesh Christ came.
The way I understand is that Christ came in the flesh and when he died in the flesh, we also died with him. The flesh or carnal man was the 'old man'. The old man died at the cross.
If one considers that the 'old man' is dying daily then one is still under the law and is still working to perfect the 'old man' who is dead.
It is my observation that we as humans try to keep hold of this old man and perfect ourselves, but it is impossible. The old man is corrupt and cannot be good.
The law of commandments are not all the same law of commandment as the old. One of the new law of commandments is:
Ephesians 4:22, "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the 'old man', which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the 'new man', which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
This commandment is an act of faith. It is a power of the mind based on the word. One cannot work for it or deserve it, it simply is there for the believing.
Romans 7:25, "...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God..."
When Christ died on the cross and the flesh died we joined with Him in his death and became one with Him. It is in the death of the old man that the law was fulfilled.
We are complete in Him which is the head of all principalities and power:
We were circumcised by God when at Christ's death the flesh was cut away.
Colosians 2:13, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses."
In Christ, Judy |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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So Judy, do you believe you are under any obligation under Faith to produce Good works as a requirement to being saved?
Paul |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
No. The works of the law do not produce righteousness.
Romans 4:3-5, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh (the law) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
The works in the book of James is speaking of a different works that that in Romans 4.
In case you might think there is a contradiction between Romans 4 and the book of James:
James is speaking of the works of righteousness by faith. Righteousness by faith is not the same as the works of the law and James gives us and example of Abraham and Issac. That example was 430 years before the law was given.
I would be glad to elaborate if you want me to.
In Christ, Judy |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Hi Paul,
No. The works of the law do not produce righteousness.
Romans 4:3-5, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh (the law) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
The works in the book of James is speaking of a different works that that in Romans 4.
In case you might think there is a contradiction between Romans 4 and the book of James:
James is speaking of the works of righteousness by faith. Righteousness by faith is not the same as the works of the law and James gives us and example of Abraham and Issac. That example was 430 years before the law was given.
I would be glad to elaborate if you want me to.
In Christ, Judy |
I want to draw your attention to verse 1 of the chapter that you quoted:
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
That piece is very important to understand here because it sets the context for the verses that follow it. Now the next verse is this:
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has grounds for boasting, but not before God.
So the works that are being talked about here are those of the FLESH not those produced by the Spirit.
We need to mark that difference. So going back to my question it was:
"So Judy, do you believe you are under any obligation under Faith to produce Good works as a requirement to being saved? "
Notice that I carefully worded my question with the phrase "under Faith" and "Good works". The reason is that I anticipated a potential response that might include the very verses you quoted. So we know there are GOOD Works being done:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Furthermore:
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
And we know that via the FLESH there is no good pertaining to it:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
So the good works that we do are His Works and those are performed via the Spirit. Now Paul answers to us whether or not works are required to be saved (have eternal life):
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Did you catch it there in those verses? - it is Paul telling us that we receive Salvation (Eternal Life) ACCORDING to the WORKS that we perform. So those are not works of the flesh but Good works. The verses you were quoting was showing us that via our fleshy works we couldn't be saved but via Faith (which requires works) we shall be saved.
I hope that makes sense and if it doesn't, please be specific in your questions and know that my full intention is to adhere to God's Word so if you think I have not done that please be specific in that regard in your remarks.
Your servant in Christ,
Paul |
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