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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | You know I am not saying the Mormons have the truth, |
I know you do not believe the Mormon way. Yet you are arguing from their prospective thus arguing from ignorance. You actually never told me who you trust specifically. Do you believe the Baptists or the Catholics have the truth???
| TBax wrote: | | If you believe the Mormons or the Baptists or the Catholics have the truth, that is your choice. |
| Dust wrote: | | yet you've twisted the thoughts I have presented, to come up with, and actually state, the opposite of what I've been telling you. That my friend is VERY telling. |
Yes, the fact that you bring this up is very telling. You appearently get confused.  As you can see, I didn't say you are a Mormon. I simply showed it is your choice to pick. You were arguing from their perspective which is why I said that. Since you don't believe they have the truth then why do you try to confuse the issue, and minimize scriptural prophesy by saying they could apply it to themselves??? I am sure all false religions try to apply scripture to themselves. I am sure the Catholics believe they preach about God's kingdom, but they don't even know what it is.
Your numbers mean nothing. You are using the word "some" to automatically discount "the few". Your belief is unscriptural. 
| Dust wrote: | | the some who leave the faith. |
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.Bold Mine
Your number comparison would automatically discount Jesus true disciples. 
Indeed. Some true disciples will leave the faith or the truth and be seduced by the apostacy. These "some" are not the originators of this apostacy but were at one time approved by God yet were eventually lured by this apostacy and hypocritical men whose consciences are branded or deadened. Those who are part of this apostacy could indeed include the majority of those who claim to be Christian. This hypocrisy is what caused Gandi to say he loved the Christ but not "Christians"!
Those whose members are not know for their proselytizing are automatically ruled out from being true Christians. Those who hypocritically encourage or condone their members to engage in carnal war are ruled out from being true Christians.
| Dust wrote: | | 1500 years after the 4th century, in a Church that is 2000 years old, I think this should be crystal clear. |
What??? The 4th century is indeed a "later period" or a "latter time", then when Paul wrote to Timothy. Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS. What are you talking about?
| TBax wrote: | You keep focusing on "end times" teachings.  First of all, that scripture isn't exclusively about "end times start ups", as that "latter period" was evident during the 4th century as the church was mixed with state and pagan teaching crept into people's faith. |
| Dust wrote: | | Here's another point of demarkation. HISTORY now testifies, in all truth, that the 4th century was/is not the latter times of which Timothy spoke. |
The fruitage of these 4th century "Christians" proves me right on this.  That scripture actually identifies more clearly who it is talking about. Notice.
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Catholic Priests are forbidded to be married!!!
Catholics put forth the abstaining of certain foods on certain days!!!
This deadened conscience would cause people to do obscenely horrible things, even in God's name.(i.e. the Inquisitions, the Crusades, any church approved human war).
This scripture is clearly talking about the apostacy that was under way in the 4th century!
Can you see my point?
Were the first century Christians organized? Indeed!
As surely as God has an invisible organization he has a visible one as well. Just like in the first century.
Just because there are false organizations who claim to be Christian does that mean there cannot be a true one?
Can you see my point?
| TBax wrote: | | To deny or minimize that this work is, or needs to be done, is to deny the scriptures. This type of work requires organization!!! |
| Dust wrote: | | I'm not denying that this work is being done and needs to be done.....by the folks who have not left the faith, nor have moved from established sound doctrine, here in these latter times. |
Who would that be?
Who would that be?
Who would that be?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 963
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hey TBax,
It's not about the numbers, it's about the common sense that points to the numbers. The same common sense that tells us 1700 years ago (the 4th century) is not......the latter times....as refered to by Timothy.
Latter - near or comparatively near to the end
As far as 'the few who find the door' as justification for JW's, were back to my point......namely, the Mormons, or even more so, the Christadelphians, could use the SAME rational to justify their own groups respectively. In fact every small group claiming Christian affiliation could use this rational to justify their group. And thus, this is the point at which common sense, and even intellectual honesty should kick-in.
TBax, obviously you desire to justify the JW organization and/or the dedicated and loving folks who are members. I know the desire to justify those whom you admire and love can be stronger (much stronger even) than intellectual honesty.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
With irony you speak of intellectual honesty.
| Dust wrote: | | Latter - near or comparatively near to the end |
First of all, latter doesn't only mean that. It can simply indicate later periods of time.
Latter
1. being the second mentioned of two (distinguished from former): I prefer the latter offer to the former one.
2. more advanced in time; later: in these latter days of human progress.
3. near or comparatively near to the end: i.e.the latter part of the century.
Add that to the fact that your Bible says "latter times"(plural) not "in the latter time" or "the latter part of this system of things" shows your interpretation is not indicated. It was simply saying as time advances. Plus the clear application of that verse shows it was before the last days. 
Plus the fact that the literal translation is "IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS" shows it is simply talking about later times then when Paul wrote that letter.
To pigeon hole that application to the last days is not intellectual honesty. Especially is this so when the application identifies the Catholic church and the offshoots from it -Those that took Catholic false doctrine into their religions.
| Dust wrote: | | As far as 'the few who find the door' as justification for JW's, were back to my point......namely, the Mormons, or even more so, the Christadelphians, could use the SAME rational to justify their own groups respectively. In fact every small group claiming Christian affiliation could use this rational to justify their group. And thus, this is the point at which common sense, and even intellectual honesty should kick-in. |
Yes, intellectual honesty should kick in here. It is not the fewer the better!!!!! You are trying to nullify or minimize the truth in the Bible by using false examples of "Christians". You are twisting the point. Is that intellectually honest???
Yet the fact is the true disciples would be few. Just because the number of individuals in some false groups are "few" does that nullify the true disciples being "few"?
| Dust wrote: | | I know the desire to justify those whom you admire and love can be stronger (much stronger even) than intellectual honesty. |
Actually, the love is there, and so is the intellectual honesty.
John 13: 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”
---------------------------------------------------
Yes, let's have intellectual honesty take over here.
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
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The 4th century is indeed a "later period" or a "latter time", then when Paul wrote to Timothy. Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS.
That scripture actually identifies more clearly who it is talking about. Notice.
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time(Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS.) some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Catholic Priests are forbidded to be married!!!
Catholics put forth the abstaining of certain foods on certain days!!!
This deadened conscience would cause people to do obscenely horrible things, even in God's name.(i.e. the Inquisitions, the Crusades, any church approved human war).
This scripture is clearly talking about the apostacy that was under way in the 4th century!
Can you be intellectually honest about these???
Can you see my point?
Were the first century Christians organized? Indeed!
As surely as God has an invisible organization he has a visible one as well. Just like in the first century.
Just because there are false organizations who claim to be Christian does that mean there cannot be a true one?
Can you see my point?
Can you display intellectual honesty here?????????????????
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Further, the fact that you cannot answer the following is quite telling. You don't know or cannot call them by a name as your idea of who they are is not an organized group.
| TBax wrote: | | To deny or minimize that this work is, or needs to be done, is to deny the scriptures. This type of work requires organization!!! |
| Dust wrote: | | I'm not denying that this work is being done and needs to be done.....by the folks who have not left the faith, nor have moved from established sound doctrine, here in these latter times. |
Who would that be?
Who would that be?
Who would that be?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 963
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | With irony you speak of intellectual honesty |
Not so much irony, for I do speak from my own experience in putting those I care about above elements of intellectual honesty.
| TBax wrote: | First of all, latter doesn't only mean that. It can simply indicate later periods of time.
Latter |
TBax, you can do back flips, and jump through hoops, in an effort to defend JW beliefs. When the book of Timothy indicates 'latter times' it is more than sufficiently evident (in fact it is succinctly evident) that it is referring directly to the end of this age. The usage of the plural term 'times' indicates that although we are speaking of a particular 'latter' time period, that time period takes place over more than one generation....which, of course, is the case with the JW and Mormon doctrines. Both these doctrines, of extra-biblical religious thought, represent departures from the established faith (and from the bible), and both organized teachings began in the 19th century, with-in the same generation......a time, of course, that would, sensibly fall with-in the period, that at this time in history we can recognize as the LATTER TIMES.....just as we can, at this time in history, know with absolute certainty that 1700 years ago is not the LATTER TIMES referred to by Timothy, or any other book of the bible, for that matter, that make reference to the latter times.
As far as 'latter' meaning more advanced in time, as in later: in these latter days of human progress.....
I'm almost certain you would not equate 1700 years ago (the 4th century) with 'these latter days of human progress' (you might back then, but, logically, you CAN'T now). Though the term 'latter' refers to a more advanced time, it does not refer to EVERY subsequent later point in time. And with the passage of 1700 years of history, the term 'latter times' is obviously not referring to the 4th century, as currently we are in the 21st century.
As far as the literal translation of "IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS", don't be fooled by this. The best scholarly minds available in the world translated the KJV into English. They used the term 'latter times' insted of 'in subsequent seasons' for good scholarly reason....i.e...linguistic nuances that are not apparent in a literal translation. Trust the Bible, trust what it says, and prove that you have faith, and trust in God.
| TBax wrote: | | It is not the fewer the better |
Actually the More that enter the better, as God does not want that any should parish, but alas, as it is written, it is only few that find the way, BUT the fact that JW's and/or Mormons are relatively few is NOT an indication that they are the few that find the way. As an example.....If 1.9 billion Christians living today find the way, that is relatively few in comparison to todays total world population, and when the numbers from all history are crunched, I'm sure the 'few' becomes even more obvious. So you see, you cannot logically exclude today's Christian population (Catholics, Baptist's and such) from being among the few Jesus refers to.
| TBax wrote: | | Who would that be? |
It is those who form the Body-of-Christ, regardless of denominational affiliation.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | Not so much irony, for I do speak from my own experience in putting those I care about above elements of intellectual honesty. |
As you are putting your bias, which you love, ahead of intellectual honesty here! Indeed!
Irony indeed! Your bias blinds you, and causes you to become guilty of the very thing you accuse me of. Either you read a scripture and try to force it to mean what you think it should be saying, or you use false examples to nullify or minimize the truth of scripture. Neither way will reveal the truth. That is not intellectually honest!
| Dust wrote: | | As far as the literal translation of "IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS", don't be fooled by this. |
Don't be fooled by the literal word for word???????????????? 
What was that about intellectual honesty?????????????
Pretty much every translation, including the King James(as read in proper context), carries that ideas of "IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS". You are not being intellectually honest!!! Plus that scripture shows who it is talking about. Can you not see this???????
NOTICE:
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time(Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS.) some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Catholic Priests are forbidded to be married!!!
Catholics put forth the abstaining of certain foods on certain days!!!
This deadened conscience would cause people to do obscenely horrible things, even in God's name.(i.e. the Inquisitions, the Crusades, any church approved human war).
This scripture is clearly talking about the apostacy that was under way in the 4th century!
Can you be intellectually honest about these???
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| Dust wrote: | If 1.9 billion Christians living today find the way, that is relatively few in comparison to todays total world population,
...
It is those who form the Body-of-Christ, regardless of denominational affiliation. |
So not a single organization but a bunch of different paths, that all teach different things and have fought and killed each other and even their own brothers in different wars, are the ones who teach the truth about the Christ and God??????? You believe these are the ones who are exerting themselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door??????????? You do remember that God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace, don't you? (1 Cor 14:33) There is one truth, not multiple paths leading to the truth. Your view is unscriptural. If you think the Baptists and the Catholics are on the same page, you would be right about that! But it is the page that speaks about their destruction. If you think God finds them both acceptable, you are closing your eyes to the truth and scripture.
Sir, your bias shades your vision. You have no right to speak of intellectual honesty as you display you are incapable of that quality. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 963
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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You're angery TBax, that's to be expected, among other emotions. Try to focus on the matter, as it really has nothing to do with me.....it's has everything to do with what can be clearly seen, and common sense.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | You're angery TBax |
Not at all. You read emotions wrong as well. What, alot of question marks means anger??? Was it the exclamation points I put for emphasis?
I would like you to start being reasonable, but perhaps that is asking too much. 
| Dust wrote: | | it's has everything to do with what can be clearly seen, and common sense. |
Indeed! Do try and view this clearly.
NOTICE:
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time(Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS.) some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Catholic Priests are forbidded to be married!!!
Catholics put forth the abstaining of certain foods on certain days!!!
This deadened conscience would cause people to do obscenely horrible things, even in God's name.(i.e. the Inquisitions, the Crusades, any church approved human war).
This scripture is clearly talking about the apostacy that was under way in the 4th century!
Can you be intellectually honest about these???
Yes!!! Please try to focus on the matter, or you can gloss over this truth as is normal for you.
| Dust wrote: | | it really has nothing to do with me |
Actually, this conversation has everything to do with you. If you were trying to be reasonable you wouldn't try to force scriptures to mean things other then what they are actually saying. It is your close mindedness that keeps you from any progress. But if that is how you like it, so be it.
Your bias was addressed because it is what blinds you.
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 963
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Once again, don't focus on me....what you are feeling has NOTHING to do with me.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
Once again, it has everything to do with you. This conversation is continuing because of your lack of understanding.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 963
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | This conversation is continuing because of your lack of understanding |
Apparently so, but I am trying to understand. I'm trying to understand what is so masterful about the deception, which is the subject of this thread. I don't think the deception itself is all that masterful, but the trapping of folks in the deception is where I see the mastery.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, deception! And who is the one being deceptive with scripture?????????
Notice who it is talking about.
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time(Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS.) some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Catholic Priests are forbidded to be married!!!
Catholics put forth the abstaining of certain foods on certain days!!!
This deadened conscience would cause people to do obscenely horrible things, even in God's name.(i.e. the Inquisitions, the Crusades, any church approved human war).
This scripture is clearly talking about the apostacy that was under way in the 4th century!
Can you be intellectually honest about these???
Can you comprehend this, or are you going to continue with your silly game?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 963
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Ok TBax, now I am getting a little angery. Don't you dare say a word about Holy Scripture. You subscribe to a teaching which has departed from it...and...changed it to accomodate said teachings. You yourself even NOW, as we discuss the issue, seek to change the English verbage chosen by God Himself through the KJV translators, opting to insert 'IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS' in place of the Holy verbage....'latter times'. You don't have HOLY scripture, you have a humanly derived publication (the NWT), and a teaching which is a depature from the faith, here in these latter times.
1 Timothy 4
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
It gets no more plain and simple than this! We are in the latter times, and the JW's (who constitute 'some') have departed from the established faith.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | Don't you dare say a word about Holy Scripture. |
I didn't. You are twisting it and ignoring the context!
| Dust wrote: | | You subscribe to a teaching which has departed from it |
Our teachings departed from the apostasy!
Do try and be reasonable. Your life depends on it.
You are angry. You need to leave that anger because you are wrong!
"IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS" is not an insertion. It is the literal word for word from the Greek script. Do you understand what that means??? Your KJV translators weren't inspired of God as you would like to think. Further more the definite article isn't present in the original language. To say the replacing of the literal words for the translated words is a departure from the faith shows your inability to be reasonable. Remember intellectual honesty?
I understand we are in "the latter times of this system of things". No doubt! I also understand that we are in a latter time. During the first century, though, it could be said Paul and Timothy live in the latter time as well.
Perhaps you need a little lesson on term usage.
Are we in a latter time? Indeed!
When Paul wrote to Timothy, could they say they were living in a latter time? Indeed!
You see, when speaking of the past, the latter time would be the most recent time. When speaking of the future, latter times would be any subsequent time beyond the recent. Do you get it? Context must be understood.
What also is most telling about your ploy, is you ignor the other 2 verses that clearly identify who is being spoken of. It all but stops short of naming the Catholic Church.
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time(Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS.) some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Catholic Priests are forbidded to be married!!!
Catholics put forth the abstaining of certain foods on certain days!!!
This deadened conscience would cause people to do obscenely horrible things, even in God's name.(i.e. the Inquisitions, the Crusades, any church approved human war).
This scripture is clearly talking about the apostasy that was under way in the 4th century!
Can you be intellectually honest about these???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 963
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Our teachings departed from the apostasy!
Do try and be reasonable. Your life depends on it. |
This is similar to what the Mormons say.....
| Quote: | | The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has proclaimed to the world consistently since its beginning that there was an apostasy of the church founded by Jesus during his Palestinian ministry and led by his Apostles following his ascension. 1 This is a fundamental belief of the Latter-day Saints. Still, “the power of God unto salvation” () is absent from all but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which the Lord himself has proclaimed to be “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” |
I'm sure you see the similarity.
| TBax wrote: | | "IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS" is not an insertion |
This phrase twists the meaning of the biblical text. The proper phrase is...."IN LATTER TIMES".
| TBax wrote: | | I understand we are in "the latter times of this system of things". No doubt! I also understand that we are in a latter time. During the first century, though, it could be said Paul and Timothy live in the latter time as well. |
| TBax wrote: | | What also is most telling about your ploy, is you ignor the other 2 verses that clearly identify who is being spoken of. It all but stops short of naming the Catholic Church. |
TBax, I have no ploy, I am simply reading what the word of God says word for word.
You acknowledge that we are currently in the 'latter times', of which 1 Timothy says.....
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
But......
Now, the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
As is evident, even before the latter times in-which we live, even 1700 years ago (the 4th century), and to a certain extent, even while Paul was still alive, some folks with-in the Church were giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. And yes, including even those with-in the organization of the Catholic Church. But the 4th century was not the 'latter times'. We are currently in the latter times. The apostasy taking place while Paul was still alive, the apostasy taking place in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and every century leading up to these latter times was a precursor of the apostasy 1 Timothy 4 warns of.
Now listen, I'm sure you would agree that the extent of claimed Catholic religious authority is a product of deception. The Mormon excerpt I provided above illustrates the lofty authority claimed by the Mormon organization. The members of these organizations are subject to those claiming this authority, and are bamboozled into believing that this authority is given from above. Sound familiar?
The man of lawlessness is alive and well here in these latter times, he is more shrewed, and seducing than ever. And now, since the protestant reformation, in addition to leading the Catholic organization into apostacy, he has taken aim at those Christians who left the Catholic Church, seducing some to then leave the tenets of thier faith.
It is apparent that this man of lawlessness and his seducing spirits became quite active in the 19th century/latter times, giving rise to organizations such as the Mormons, Christadelphians, and JW's.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
Your replies are nothing more then justifications to view the scriptures as you choose to, taking out intellectual honesty. Let me explain.
Since this apostasy was evident to the Mormons and other false organizations as well, does that mean that wasn't the time the apostasy took over? You are using false logic as a justification. Again, you are using the beliefs of false organizations to try to minimize Bible truths. The fact remains the apostasy of Christendom was evident in the 4th century. 1 Tim 4 shows this unequivocally.
| TBax wrote: | | "IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS" is not an insertion |
| Dust wrote: | | This phrase twists the meaning of the biblical text. The proper phrase is...."IN LATTER TIMES". |
"IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS" is not an insertion. It is the literal word for word from the Greek script. Do you understand what that means??? Your KJV translators weren't inspired of God as you would like to think. Further more the definite article isn't present in the original language. To say the replacing of the literal words for the translated words is a departure from the faith shows your inability to be reasonable. Remember intellectual honesty?
Perhaps you need a little lesson on term usage.
Are we in a latter time? Indeed!
When Paul wrote to Timothy, could they say they were living in a latter time? Indeed!
You see, when speaking of the past, the latter time would be the most recent time. When speaking of the future, latter times would be any subsequent time beyond the recent. Do you get it? Context must be understood.
Appearently the answer to my questions is NO.  You don't get it and cannot be intellectually honest.
You refuse to understand and be reasonable here. Instead of trying to understand the words, you are forcing your understanding into the text. Latter times does indeed INCLUDE the last days, but also all periods beyond the apolostalic era. You are jumping to the end and glossing over the apostasy you have accepted as truth.
It appears you can see the application does apply to the Catholic church, even in the 4th century, yet despite the fact that the direct application fits them you prefer to ignor that and apply it elsewhere.
| Dust wrote: | | Now listen, I'm sure you would agree that the extent of claimed Catholic religious authority is a product of deception. The Mormon excerpt I provided above illustrates the lofty authority claimed by the Mormon organization. The members of these organizations are subject to those claiming this authority, and are bamboozled into believing that this authority is given from above. Sound familiar? |
False logic!!! Just because false organizations claim to have "authority from above" does that mean the true organization doesn't??????? Jesus claimed to have authority from above as well. Your logic is entirly misleading, and would keep people from believeing Jesus as well. You are dangerous!
| Dust wrote: | | As is evident, even before the latter times in-which we live, even 1700 years ago (the 4th century), and to a certain extent, even while Paul was still alive, some folks with-in the Church were giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. |
True except for the fact that in the 4th century we are talking about the Cathloic church not a minority in it. During that time the church was in bed with the state!!! No denying that!!! You miss the point.
| Dust wrote: | | The man of lawlessness is alive and well here in these latter times |
Indeed, but ironically you would include the true organization because they do not follow this man of lawlessness that includes the clergy of the Catholic church.
Since you choose to believe the apostasy of the 4th century, that the Catholic church instituted, those who teach the truth are automatically rejected by you.
| Dust wrote: | | he has taken aim at those Christians who left the Catholic Church, seducing some to then leave the tenets of thier faith. |
Wait a minute. Did I read that right? What happened to your 1.9 billion Christians? Your whole majority and minority "SOME" argument? It appears your numbers are changing drastically. You previously indicated that the Catholics are part of the "Body of Christ" and preach the Kingdom. You do realize you are contradicting your previous statements. Are you learning?
| Dust previously wrote: | So you see, you cannot logically exclude today's Christian population (Catholics, Baptist's and such) from being among the few Jesus refers to.
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If you need to leave the Catholic church to have the truth, then the clergy of the Cathoilc church is part of the man of lawlessness, hence negating your previous statement. Yet many who "leave" take the same doctrine that this man of lawlessness created. Curious.
1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time(Literally IN SUBSEQUENT SEASONS.) some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
Catholic Priests are forbidded to be married!!!
Catholics put forth the abstaining of certain foods on certain days!!!
This deadened conscience would cause people to do obscenely horrible things, even in God's name.(i.e. the Inquisitions, the Crusades, any church approved human war).
This scripture is clearly talking about the apostacy that was under way in the 4th century!
Can you be intellectually honest about these???
It now appears you can see the application does apply to the Catholic church, even in the 4th century, yet despite the fact that the direct application fits them you prefer to ignor that and adopt their pagan views yet apply this verse elsewhere. To each his own.
Your previous arguments are falling apart as you continue to try to justify your position. Thus showing you are willing to argue from ignorance and pretend you are correct until the same clear evidence, presented many times in a row, forces you to alter your ideas.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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