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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| Quote: | bitterlily said:
Just like the Jews who offered the fruit of their ground are enemies for our sake but concerning the election are beloved for the fathers' sakes, I have no problem in believing the same is true of Cain too. How bout you?  |
I do not believe in total predestination or universal salvation
but my mind is not totally closed to them. JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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To bitterlily,
Romans 11:28-29
The Calvinistic mode of interpreting this scripture is as follows: When God purposes to call and favor a people, his purpose is unalterable. He long since purposed to call and favor Israel; and therefore he will certainly do it.
This is partly true and partly not. When God purposes unconditionally to call a people, he will certainly call them; but he purposes unconditionally nothing more than the call. he never unconditionally purposes salvation. This he confers only on condition of obedience to Christ. But he has already called the Jews by the gospel, and is still calling them. This far then, his purpose has been executed. But whether he will ever favor them with salvation depends, not on any unconditional purpose of his, but on their own voluntary acceptance of Christ. This done, he will bless: this not done, he will not.
Consequently all mankind are chosen and loved by God but not all choose to respond to that love, as far as we know Cain was one of those who did not. JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| Quote: | | bitterlily said:So it seems from these verses that the Mark on Cain was a SIGN OR TOKEN of the Covenant the Lord made with Cain that if he was killed by anyone vengeance would be taken on them sevenfold. |
So what do you think the sign was? The covenant or some physical or spiritual mark? |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| JimD wrote: | To bitterlily,
Romans 11:28-29
The Calvinistic mode of interpreting this scripture is as follows: When God purposes to call and favor a people, his purpose is unalterable. He long since purposed to call and favor Israel; and therefore he will certainly do it.
This is partly true and partly not. When God purposes unconditionally to call a people, he will certainly call them; but he purposes unconditionally nothing more than the call. he never unconditionally purposes salvation. This he confers only on condition of obedience to Christ. But he has already called the Jews by the gospel, and is still calling them. This far then, his purpose has been executed. But whether he will ever favor them with salvation depends, not on any unconditional purpose of his, but on their own voluntary acceptance of Christ. This done, he will bless: this not done, he will not. |
We are told in the NT that no one can come to Christ by their own voluntary will alone, they must be helped by the Father:
No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of (from; by) the Father, comes unto me. John 6:44-45
| Quote: | | Consequently all mankind are chosen and loved by God but not all choose to respond to that love, as far as we know Cain was one of those who did not. JimD |
Then how do you explain these verses:
But Isaiah is very bold, and says, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he says, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and contrary people. Romans 10:20-21
It seems to be a principle that those the Lord chooses become a disobedient and contrary people. Why? The answer seems to be given in the original words of Isaiah:
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, who walk in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoke me to anger continually to my face; that sacrifice in gardens, and burn incense upon altars of brick; Who remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, who eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Who say, Stand by yourself, come not near to me; for I am holier than you. These are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire that burns all the day. Isaiah 65:1-5
Also, in Matthew it is written:
The people who sat in darkness saw great light; and to them who sat in the region and shadow of death, light is sprung up. Matthew 4:16
This seems to be a reference to Psalms:
For he satisfies the longing soul, and fills the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and in irons; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labor; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and broke their bands asunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he has broken the gates of bronze, and cut the bars of iron in two. Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. Their soul abhors all manner of food; and they draw near unto the gates of death. Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saves them out of their distresses. He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing. Psalms 107:9-22
It seems to be our human nature that we all constantly stray from the Lord (not necessarily in thought but in Spirit and in Deed) and it's not until the rod of affliction comes upon us that we realize and cry out to the Lord and He saves us. Some seem to perceive God as being the type who likes to kick people when they are down and say , "Too late! I told you so! But ya didn't listen! No second chances." When in reality:
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, who need no repentance. Luke 15:7
The Lord delights in all who repent and He does everything in His power to help them come to repentance:
How think you? if a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and go into the mountains, and seek that which is gone astray? And if so be that he finds it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more for that sheep, than for the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14
Note that the Lord is not sitting waiting for us to choose to come to Him but He is actively seeking all the Lost! This indicates to me that He doesn't have as much faith in our voluntary will as many Christians do. Thank God for that I say!!!
Loves
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| JimD wrote: | | Quote: | | bitterlily said:So it seems from these verses that the Mark on Cain was a SIGN OR TOKEN of the Covenant the Lord made with Cain that if he was killed by anyone vengeance would be taken on them sevenfold. |
So what do you think the sign was? The covenant or some physical or spiritual mark? |
I did some checking and it is very possible that the SIGN or TOKEN (Mark) was not placed ON CAIN. Here is what I did. I checked the Strong's numbers of that verse, specifically the part translated as "SET A MARK UPON CAIN" and the numbers were as follows:
SET = 7760
A MARK = 226
UPON CAIN = 7014
This is how it appears in the verse:
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set7760 a mark226 upon Cain,7014 lest any finding him should kill him. Genesis 4:15
Next I did a search of all the verses that have these Numbers appearing together (minus the Cain Number- 7014) and here is what I found:
How he had wrought7760 his signs226 in Egypt4714...Psalms 78:43
And I will set7760 a sign226 among them, and I will send7971...Isaiah 66:19
Which has set7760 signs226 and wonders4159 in the land776...Jeremiah 32:20
And I will set my face against that man, and will make7760 him a sign226 and a proverb,4912...Ezekiel 14:8
So you see, there is no indication that the sign or token was placed upon Cain at all. In fact the Strong's number for UPON (5921) does not even appear in the verse and even if it did it can be translated any of the following ways:
| BDB Dictionary wrote: | | upon, on the ground of, according to, on account of, on behalf of, concerning, beside, in addition to, together with, beyond, above, over, by, on to, towards, to, against (preposition) |
Love
Lily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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Hello bitterlily.
| Quote: | bitterlily said:
We are told in the NT that no one can come to Christ by their own voluntary will alone, they must be helped by the Father: |
Very true.
| Quote: | bitterlily said:
It seems to be a principle that those the Lord chooses become a disobedient and contrary people. Why? The answer seems to be given in the original words of Isaiah: |
Very true.
| Quote: | bitterlily said:
The Lord delights in all who repent and He does everything in His power to help them come to repentance: |
Very true.
| Quote: | bitterlily said:
Note that the Lord is not sitting waiting for us to choose to come to Him but He is actively seeking all the Lost! This indicates to me that He doesn't have as much faith in our voluntary will as many Christians do. Thank God for that I say!!! |
Very true.
With all this truth you still seem to miss the glaringly obvious. That God gives all mankind the freedom to choose or not to choose his love, and never in this life on earth, takes that freedom away.
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Maybe if you did a word study on the word (chosen) it would help. The way i understand it, chosen by God does not guarantee that salvation will result.
PS: Your word study on the mark of Cain is very impressive, but you did not tell me, as far as i can tell, what you think the mark of Cain was.??? JimD |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| JimD wrote: | Very true.
Very true.
Very true.
Very true. |
Awesome! I'm glad that we agree thus far!
| Quote: | | With all this truth you still seem to miss the glaringly obvious. That God gives all mankind the freedom to choose or not to choose his love, and never in this life on earth, takes that freedom away. |
My impression from Scripture is that many think they are choosing God and His Love when in Truth they are not! Take the Pharisees and Sadducees for example, they came to John for baptism yet HE rejected them saying:
O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the barn; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:7-12
Paul said of Israel:
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:1-3
They have a ZEAL for God, but not according to knowledge...
They being IGNORANT of God's righteousness...
How can someone choose a thing in which they are IGNORANT of? How is this freedom to Choose? Musn't one first know what the options are before he is considered truly free to choose? Paul also tells us that it was God who kept them ignorant of His Righteousness so that salvation could come to us:
For I would not, brethren, that you should be IGNORANT of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25-27
All Israel shall be saved...
The Deliverer shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob...
Note that there is no mention of Israel choosing to turn away from ungodliness but the PROMISE that the Deliverer Jesus will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Here is another example:
What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks for; but the election(chosen) has obtained it, and the rest were blinded According as it is written, God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day. And David says, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back always. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? Romans 11:7-12
Paul also says that God shut them in:
For God has concluded (to shut up together; enclose; of a shoal of fishes in a net; to shut up on all sides; shut up completely) them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11:32-33
I don't see much choice in their blindness, deafness, unbelief and spirit of slumber but I do however see the Mercy and Riches of God upon ALL because of their unbelief.
| JimD wrote: | | Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! |
And the Mystery which Paul spoke re: all Israel being saved is hiding a couple of verses down:
For I say unto you, you shall not see me again, UNTIL you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39
When will they as a collective say this?
When the Deliverer comes out from Zion:
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1
But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24
| JimD wrote: | | PS: Your word study on the mark of Cain is very impressive, but you did not tell me, as far as i can tell, what you think the mark of Cain was.??? JimD |
I don't have the foggiest idea! 
Love
Lily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| bitterlily, i think our conversation on these subjects have become unproductive. Would you like to try another subject? JimD |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| JimD wrote: | | bitterlily, i think our conversation on these subjects have become unproductive. Would you like to try another subject? JimD |
Sure!
But we will need to start a new study thread. What would you like to study? You can choose and maybe get us started!
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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bitterlily, i do not know how to start a new thread.
1 Peter 3:18-19 came up in Sunday school, what is your take on this scripture? JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| JimD wrote: | bitterlily, i do not know how to start a new thread.
1 Peter 3:18-19 came up in Sunday school, what is your take on this scripture? JimD |
look under forum index-Public Christian Bible, for new thread JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: Re: spirit of satan |
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| JimD wrote: | | JimD wrote: | bitterlily, i do not know how to start a new thread.
1 Peter 3:18-19 came up in Sunday school, what is your take on this scripture? JimD |
look under forum index-Public Christian Bible, for new thread JimD |
Beter yet, just click on Public Christian Bible, below to find new thread. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IS SATAN? |
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NOT what is satan, BUT who is Satan.
The Bible tells us that he was the MOST Intelligent, being in all the created universe.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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The Bible tells us that the serpent was the most crafty of the animals in the Garden of Eden, but that has nothing to do with Satan. What are you referring to?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 628
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Satan is probably the fleshly nature of man, the natural man.  
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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