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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: |
What are the Synoptics? Can you please provide the verses before I respond to this comment? |
Matthew, Mark, and Luke. They are called "synoptic" because they agree much with each other. John is very different.
| Quote: |
Actually I have done some investigating into the Preparation of the Passover Meal and found that Jesus was prepared perfectly according to God's command. Remember, that Jesus was not a literal Lamb but a Spiritual Lamb so the cooking and eating of Him is also Spiritual. For example, the Paschal Lamb was to be roasted with Fire. Jesus was roasted with the Fire of the Holy Spirit. As for eating Him, through His own words Jesus showed that He was to be understood as more than just the Passover Lamb. For example, He was also the true Manna from Heaven, and the Living Water of Tabernacles:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world. John 6:32-33
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spoke he of the Spirit, whom they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:37-39 |
Yet none of this has anything to do with the Pesach. I understand where you are going, but not why because none of this supports Jesus as an equivalent to the Paschal lamb.
Beyond that, what is your answer to the fact that the synoptics have Jesus eating the Passover with his disciples while GJohn has him dying on the eve of Passover? Who is correct?
Finally, since the Paschal lamb was protection for the firstborn, does that mean if you are not firstborn he is of no use to you? I am not the firstborn so I guess it is quite OK to ignore Jesus.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Also, if Jesus is the Paschal Lamb then his death is not a sacrifice but a form of remembrance for what G-d did to deliver Israel. The Paschal Lamb is not a sin offering. |
The Paschal Lamb is a Sacrifice:
That you shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshiped. Exodus 12:27 |
Let me clarify. Christians say Jesus was a sin sacrifice, which means he was offered in the same manner as a sin sacrifice in Torah. However, the Paschal lamb was not a sin sacrifice; it was sacrifice to protect the people as G-d passed over. There are no atonement qualities in the Paschal lamb.
| Quote: | | Jesus said He came to fulfill the whole Law not just the Law of Passover. |
Yet while he said it, there really is not much evidence he did. Besides, how do you fulfill Torah? Torah is full of mitzvot (commands). How does Jesus fulfill all of these?
| Quote: | | There was also the day of Atonement which was a sin offering and Jesus fulfilled this as well. All of the OT Feasts and Holy Days are alluded to in the NT as fulfilled by Jesus but because of Church Christianity's neglect of the OT their fulfillments are not widely understood. But for some Christians the tides are certainly changing. |
You speak of this and even tried to provide some evidence but thus far I find the explanations severely lacking and heavy on speculation. I know you don't like that but I see no evidence whatsoever to support your hypotheses.
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: | | Quote: | | Where do you get the idea that Shavuot is the anniversary of the giving of Torah? There is no support for this in Tanakh. This is a rabbinical idea and not found in written Torah. However it is a day where Jews thank G-d for the Torah. |
You are right in that you will not find a verse stating that the Torah was given on Shavuot but if you use the available verses to calculate the days from which the Israelites left Egypt to the giving of the Law it works out to be on the day of Pentecost. So it is possible that this Rabbinical idea came from this. I have a copy of a book that is claimed to be the book of Jasher mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and it states:
And in the third month from the children of Israel's departure from Egypt, on the sixth day thereof, the Lord gave to Israel the ten commandments on Mount Sinai. Jasher 82:6
The 6th of the 3rd month is known as the 6th of Sivan which the Jews celebrate as the Day of Pentecost. |
I'd take care in citing a book with very questionable authenticity. There have been many scholars who point out that any supposed copies of "The Book of Jasher" are obvious forgeries.
| Quote: | | In fact, to be fair, most of Christendom has shed off Torah. Therefore, while the first Pentecost may have been honorable to G-d in some way it went downhill after that. |
To be fair to who? Did the shedding off of Torah by most of the Israelites in the OT make the Torah of no significance?[/quote]
Yes, they did this as a people, but Tanakh does not support this. People make their own choices. However the Christian bible goes so far as to shed Torah in its very pages and therein lies the difference.
| Quote: | | Should not the value of Torah to Christianity be measured by what the NT says regarding it and not what most of Christendom do? |
I'll assume you haven't read most of Paul's works and Hebrews?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | This has no foundation in Tanakh. The "Day of Shouting" is about shouting to G-d in prayer. No reason is given in Tanakh for this holiday. It is a day of rest and memorial so you apply Thess 4:15-16 to this Jewish holiday has zero basis. |
What I am merely pointing out is that the OT Feasts were not shedded by Biblical Christianity as you claim but their fulfillments were viewed from a spiritual perspective rather than the OT Shadow. |
I'm sorry but I'm still not seeing this. You keep talking about "biblical Christianity" but that includes the GT. Thus far you have not made a very strong case that "biblical Christianity" is very far off from practiced Christianity. Unless you throw out most of the GT past Luke?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Wait, you said earlier that Jesus was the Paschal lamb, right? The Paschal lamb was not an atonement sacrifice, therefore Heb 9:28 is in error or John is in error. Both cannot be correct. Also, Jesus was not properly prepared for either, a sacrifice OR the Paschal lamb. |
As I pointed out earlier, Jesus came to fulfill the whole Law which included the atonement sacrifice and not just the Passover Lamb. If you struggle to see how Jesus can be both than you will also probably struggle with the NT idea that He was also the High Priest that offered Himself, not forgetting that He was also the Temple, the head cornerstone and the foundation. |
Not a shred of this is supported in Torah or the rest of Tanakh. Please show me how. You cannot just assume that the GT is correct when it is not supported by its supposed foundation, Tanakh.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | During Sukkot, the world is judged for water. Are you saying Jesus' play on words during the festival means that he is King Messiah? This is a stretch to say he is the 'fulfillment' of Sukkot. |
Jesus said that the True Water of Sukkot was the Living Water of the Spirit that would spring up in anyone who believed in Him according to the Scriptures (John 7:37-39) |
No, you inserted your own interpretation into this. Jesus said no such thing.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And to tie in joy that is found during Sukkot to the joy you are supposed to receive from the spirit again is quite a bit of eisegesis, which means reading into scripture a certain theology rather than reading theology out of scripture. |
Are you referring to me or the NT writers as reading into Scripture a certain theology. As far as I'm concerned, I'm taking all Scripture OT and NT into consideration when reading these verses about Sukkot. Both the OT and NT tells us that their is Joy to be found in the Presence of God:
You will show me the path of life: in your presence is fullness of joy; at your right hand there are pleasures forevermore. Psalms 16:11
And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Spirit. Acts 13:52
I better end this here and start a new post.
Love
Bitterlily |
Please forgive me, but either I am missing something or you are not being very clear. You have not provided any substantial evidence to support your hypotheses thus far.
I envy your desire to see Jesus as all of the things you believe he is. I think sometimes Christians go out of their way to read Jesus into something he is not because he so obviously failed as the Jewish King Messiah.
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: | | Quote: | Again, to say this is Jesus is a stretch. How was Jesus like Moses? I know you get this from the GT reading it into Jesus' life, but there really is little support in the GT for Jesus and Moses being similar.
First of all, when did Jesus speak to G-d face to face? You may say in heaven but Moses did it while amongst his people. So he was not like Moses in that respect. |
In heaven? Where did Jesus say Heaven was?
And when he was demanded by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with outward observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20-21 |
Then why does this find no support in Tanakh? Does G-d change? All throughout the Tanakh we see where prophets said "And the word of YHVH came to me" but we never see that in the GT.
| Quote: | There are many verses that show that Jesus was speaking face to face with the Father the whole time He was on earth. Here are just a few:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatsoever things he does, these also does the Son likewise. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel. John 5:19-20
Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 14:10-11 |
But again, this is nothing at all like you see G-d in Tanakh. Why the difference? And I notice you are getting heavy into GJohn, the one gospel that went out of its way to put Jesus on the same level as G-d.
Its like G-d is a shadowy character in the GT, an unknown player. GT is all about Jesus and to me, this screams idolatry.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Also, Moses was given Torah by G-d, and the Ten Commandments on stone tablets. Jesus was asked by 'satan' to turn stone into bread. So he was not like Moses in that respect. |
Jesus was the walking, talking Torah. He embodied the Torah. |
I can only roll my eyes at that one.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Moses was also called to deliver Israel from the Egyptians, and was accepted by the people. Jesus was not accepted and he did not deliver a single person from Roman bondage. So he was not like Moses in that respect. |
According to Revelations 11:18 physical Jerusalem was Spiritual Egypt so the deliverance was not from Roman but Egyptian bondage. Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt parallels Jesus leading the Remnant Israel out of Spiritual Egypt. |
Huh? Revelation 11:18 is supposed to be a future event. What did Jesus do for the people of his day?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | In any case, Deu 18:17-19 is merely about G-d saying He will supply prophets after Moses who will bring G-d's Word to the people. We find them throughout Tanakh: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Samuel, Nathan, etc. It is not speaking of a singular prophet. Read Deu 18:14 and on for the real context of this passage. |
I read more than just the real context of that passage but others as well when I wrote to you about it towshab and it clearly shows a distinction between the Prophets you listed above and the Prophet Moses:
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not thus, who is faithful in all my house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even clearly, and not in dark sayings; and the form of the LORD shall he behold: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? Numbers 12:6-8
You must take this difference between Moses and the other Prophets into consideration when reading the verses in Deuteronomy. |
But again, even if we assume the "prophet like Moses" is one person, I fail to see a bit of similarity between Jesus and Moses. Thus far you have not really provided any.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Messianic Jews are an odd lot. On one hand, they are evangelical, on the other, they practice rabbinical observances that do not come from the written Torah but from the oral! That makes no sense because when it really gets down to it, Jesus was likely against rabbinical practices! |
Like all things towshab, I think the rabbinical observances should first be examined in the light of Scripture before they are discarded. I have found that some Rabbinic observances have helped me to better understand some of Jesus words because He often used them in His parables. |
There are some that are supported by written Torah, but there are some that are not that Messianics are practicing so they can attract Jews. Its really sneaky and somewhat dishonest.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Actually, don't get me started on messianics. They are the worst kind of Christian IMO. They are Christians disguised as Jews when the two do not belong together. Not evangelical Christianity in any case yet that is exactly what messianics are. They are nothing like the first Jewish Christians. |
| Quote: | | Also, if you'd research these organizations without rose colored glasses you'd find out that many of them are filled with people who were never Jews in the first place. |
I am aware that their are Gentile Christians that give the impression that they are Jewish when they are not which is why I specifically look for testimonies of Jews who turned to Jesus. I am always interested to know what caused them to convert when so many of their brethren don't. But my interest in this is not limited to Jews but includes Muslims, Athiest and all soughts. And more often than not their conversions were by divine and not man intervention. Has often made me wonder why the Lord would tell people to preach the Gospel when often times He doesn't actually use them to reach people.
Sincerely
Bitterlily |
But don't forget there are many instances of Christians converting to other religions as well. More often than not, however, Christians who go away from Christianity become atheist or agnostic instead because they feel they have been lied to and lose trust on all religion. It is a knee-jerk reaction but I understand it because I almost did the same.
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: |
You say that Jesus went against Torah by adding to it yet you fail to see that the OT Prophets were constantly adding to the Torah. Or should I say, elaborating on the true meaning of Torah like Jesus did. For example, Hosea made Adultery into that of Israel against Her Husband YHWH. Yet Israel didn't physically sleep with YHWH and neither did they commit physical Adultery against YHWH. This clearly shows that the Act of Adultery is in the Heart not the Action and is committed against God not Man. Actually, let me correct myself. There is physical adultery committed against our fellowman which violates the Second Commandment and there is Spiritual adultery that we commit against God violating the First Commandment. |
I can agree with this, and its not really a sticking point with me. It is with many Jews but I am not a Jew  .
| Quote: | | Actually, I think it is wrong of any Christian to keep Torah. I do not as a Righteous Gentile (don't get hung up on the 'righteous' part, it is just a title) because I know that Torah was given to the Jews. Unless I convert to Judaism, I think it is an insult to take Torah and say I keep it as a Jew should. |
How can you say that? Christianity is built on the Torah. Have you forgotten what Jesus said:[/quote]
How can I say it? Who did Jesus go to? Jews. Are you a Jew? Are you willing to convert?
Christianity, sadly, is NOT built on Torah. Not Pauline Christianity, and not Christianity as seen in Gjohn.
| Quote: | | Think about the OT for a minute. What were the 2 great crimes that the Israelites were charged by God with. Breaking the First and Second Commandment. They turned away from God and they were cruel to their neighbour. All the Prophets of the OT charged the Israelites with the breaking of one or both of these 2 commandments. Adultery against God is also a violation of the First Commandment. Theft, murder and lying, and coveting a man's goods or wife is a violation of the Second Commandment. |
Yes. Let me challenge you: show me how to obtain "salvation" using only Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
| Quote: | | This is somewhat of a selfish statement IMO. Its like saying Christians have cornered the market on righteousness when its blood-soaked history proves otherwise. |
What is your standard towshab, the Scriptures or those who claim to live by the Scriptures.[/quote]
The fruit of the tree. The GT is sadly anti-semitic and the only people who disagree are Christians.
| Quote: | | You are obviously referring to Church Christianity and not Biblical Christianity when you talk about a blood soaked history. |
Does GJohn paint a rosy view of Jews?
| Quote: | | What makes a Christian a Christian? Is it not someone who lives by the principles of Biblical Christianity? |
But again, I challenge you to show me real "biblical Christianity". Every denomination claims they are living by "biblical Christianity". What makes what you do any more right than what they do?
| Quote: | | There is absolutely nothing in the NT that supports the blood-soaked actions of the Church. |
Mat 27:25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!"
That about sums it up in a nutshell.
| Quote: | | The NT says that true Christians will be the persecuted not the persecutors. So then what should be the conclusion one comes to when comparing Biblical Christianity with Church Christianity? Church Christianity claims to be Biblical Christianity BUT IT IS NOT! Remember the First 2 commandments. The breaking of one more often than not leads to the breaking of the other. People forsake God and then they forsake their fellowman. This was the pattern in the OT. They turned away from God and they oppressed their fellowman. But God would preserve a remnant who were faithful to Him (often those being oppressed) and He would call them out, separating them from their oppressors. Then over time as the remnant grew into a multitude the majority would turn away from God again and the cycle would repeat. It is no different with Christianity and the NT even testified that this would happen to it as well when it talked about Wolves in Sheeps clothing. The thing I find hard to believe is that Church Christianity think the great falling away from the faith only started in recent times when Christians started leaving the Churches in droves. How crazy is that? It's a joke! Biblical Christianity tells me that Church Christianity fell away from the faith a long long time ago. I would even go so far as to say it was starting to happen in the days of the Apostles if not soon after. |
I wish you the best of luck in getting people to return to what you call "biblical Christianity". I hope you have some success. Call me pessimistic, but I don't see it happening.
| Quote: | Sorry towshab, I got a little carried away.  |
That is alright. The sad thing is that Christians claim they have the Holy Spirit and that is the "real" difference.
Do you see a difference?
| Quote: | | I have made a couple of Christian friends over the years and their Church Theology has been enough to encourage me to stay away. This forum is the closest thing to Church I have gotten and I am thankful that they allow all members to share what is on our hearts and minds. |
For the most part they do.
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: | | towshab wrote: | | By this I mean that the sacrifice of a human to atone for other human's sins is totally foreign to Tanakh. In fact you will find many passages where it is equated with pagan gods. G-d never once in all of Tanakh accepted nor called for a human sacrifice. Even the passage about Isaac was to show that YHVH was different from the pagan religions who sacrificed humans. |
Actually, you are wrong about this towshab. Isaiah does! I encourage you to read the whole of chapter 53 from a translation of your choosing. |
I have, many times over. There is no support for human sacrifice found in Isa 53. Not as an atonement in any case.
Beyond that, look at the context of Isa 53. It speaks of one who is rejected, and that the stripes of that person will heal those who are rejecting him. That is the opposite of the Christian message! Christianity says you must accept Jesus as lord and savior to be healed.
[quote] | Quote: | | Most modern scholars do not believe 2 Peter was written by him or were his words. |
Most modern Scholars? So? What is their belief based on?
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | In any case, even if it was Peter, he admitted that Paul's writings were odd. |
What's that word you used? Eisegesis?
Peter said:
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16
It might be best if you tell me why modern scholars don't believe that Peter wrote this Epistle so I can inspect the evidence. Just think about it for a moment, there are many modern experts who would tell us that the Torah is not God's but Man's Law. Would you expect me to take their opinion seriously without providing evidence. I personally have witnessed enough evidence to believe all of the OT and the NT and even others that have been left out of the Bible. Remember, I am willing to investigate anything before making any conclusions about it.
Ahhhh!!!! 
IT'S 3:30AM, I better go to bed.
Look forward to hearing from you soon.
Good Night
Bitterlily |
For one thing, 2 Peter is dated around 100-160 CE according to http://earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html. Do you believe Peter was still alive at that time? From that same page:
The external evidence points most strongly to the inauthenticity of II Peter. If II Peter is authentic, then both epistles are authentic and both addressed themselves to the same church and were sent at approximately the same time (Peter's stay in Rome). Thus, it is most reasonable to assume that the two authentic epistles of Peter would have circulated together. However, the external evidence reveals that several early writers have knowledge only of I Peter, and this tells against the authenticity of II Peter.
As to dating, Perrin suggests (The New Testament: An Introduction, p. 262): "He is probably the latest of all the New Testament writers, and a date about A.D. 140 would be appropriate." Nearly all scholars would agree with a date sometime in the second century, probably in the second quarter.
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: | | However, I do not know any Jews who believe the same thing and the original Hebrew scriptures were handed down through them, correct? |
So are they your standard of truth are they? You might want to take into consideration that Jews also believe that they have been in exile for nearly 2000 years because of their unfaithfulness to God. So it might be a good idea for you to reevaluate their belief's in the light of Scripture.
| Quote: | | Didn't John try to worship the angel in Revelation? |
Then he (the angel) said unto me (John), See you do it not: for I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:9
| Quote: | But what of these verses (from the KJV this time) that use "shachah"?
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Gen 23:7 And Abraham stood up, and bowed ("shachah") himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.
Gen 23:12 And Abraham bowed ("shachah") down himself before the people of the land.
Gen 33:3 And he passed over before them, and bowed himself ("shachah") to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ("shachah") ourselves to thee to the earth?
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There are many more examples but I think that is sufficient enough to show that the word "shachah" can simply mean bowing or paying homage to someone over or superior to you. |
So how do you explain away Abraham's lying to Abimilech about his wife Sarah being his sister when the LORD commanded:
You shall not steal, [b]neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. Leviticus 19:11
Does Abraham's behaviour now justify lying? Moses killed a man; does that mean murder is acceptable to God? 
You say that I get the idea of YHWH materializing as an Angel from my belief in Jesus when that is just an assumption on your part. I have studied the OT and there are distinct differences between the times that the Angel of Yehovah appeared to people and when it says Yehovah appeared to them. For example, not once does it refer to the Angel of Yehovah appearing to Abram in Gen 18. The first mention of the Angel of Yehovah talking to Abraham comes in Gen 22 yet it is mentioned previously as appearing to Hagar in Gen 16. Compare these verses:
HAGAR IN GEN 16
And the angel of the LORD found her...Genesis 16:7
And the angel of the LORD said unto her...Genesis 16:9
And the angel of the LORD said unto her...Genesis 16:10
And the angel of the LORD said unto her...Genesis 16:11
ABRAM IN GEN 16
And YHWH appeared unto him... Genesis 18:1
And YHWH said unto Abraham...Genesis 18:13
Is any thing too hard for YHWH. At the set time I will return unto thee...Genesis 18:14
And YHWH said: 'Shall I hide from Abraham that which I am doing; Genesis 18:17
And YHWH said: 'Verily, the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and, verily, their sin is exceeding grievous. I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know.' Genesis 18:20-21
And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before YHWH.Genesis 18:22
And YHVH said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city... Genesis 18:26
And YHVH went his way, as soon as he had left speaking with Abraham...Genesis 18:33[/quote]
Take note that Abraham saw 3 men:
[color=brown]And the LORD appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, Genesis 18:1-2
And that only 2 Angels (in human form according to Gen 18) went down to Sodom:
And there came two angels to Sodom at evening; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; Genesis 19:1
This explains why this verse says that the men went to Sodom while Abraham stood before YHWH.
And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before YHWH.Genesis 18:22
YHWH is obviously the 3rd Man that appeared to Abram. And please remember the word is "MATERIALIZED" as a Man. YHWH is Spirit and a Consuming Fire but He can clothe Himself in Man the same way He clothed Himself in the Thick Dark Cloud upon Sinai.
Can I ask towshab? Are you studying this as we go coz it certainly doesn't seem so and I find this quite disheartening. That is why I asked you what your standard is. Is it the Scriptures or what Jews believe about the Scriptures? If you say the Scriptures than we have some hope of getting somewhere but if you overlook the things I Scripturally present just because Jews don't believe it then I'm afraid we are wasting each others time. Are we seeking the truth according to Scripture or are we seeking the truth according to what Jews believe about Scripture, because there is a big difference as I am sure you know. If you are stretched for time to study this as we go I am more than willing to exercise patience while you take all the time you need. I would rather receive one studied post from you than a million posts without study. I don't mean this to offend you!  I just want our time together to be the best that it can possibly be!
May I also say that I was about to concede that your presentation of the Angel of YHWH was true but before doing so I wanted to study it again to be doubly sure first. That is when I noticed these discrepancies in Gen 18. I am telling you this so that you know I have no fear in conceding any of my preconceived ideas to the truth according to Scripture. I believe I will be the better for it and if you can say the same you will have comforted me a great deal.
Yours sincerely
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: | | bitterlily wrote: | | Was that 15 years in a Christian Church or 15 years in Biblical Christianity? |
Christian church but after enough exposure to others on the Web as well, I see very little difference. |
You seem to have misunderstood me! When I speak of Biblical Christianity I mean Christianity according to the Bible not according to other people or websites or material.
| towshab wrote: | | Sure there are a few people out there who seem to be seeking to return to the supposed roots of Jewish Christianity, but they are really stumbling in the dark with a Roman guidebook. The RCC had its hands all over your bible and there really is no telling what was originally the words of Jesus. |
What is this claim based on towshab? Are you speculating? I am quite certain that the RCC feared changing the Scriptures so instead they banned the lay folk from being allowed to read it with the threat of execution. When they couldn't do that any more they used fear to keep their members from going near it, and I know this because it was still happening in my life time. You should have seen the looks on my relatives faces when they saw me reading the Bible. Some of them even warning me that they had witnessed the punishment of a painful illness falling on unworthy souls who read the Bible. I already had one so this didn't deter me. If the RCC made any changes in the Bible than they didn't do a very good job, leaving verses in there that caused many who read it to conclude that the RCC is the Great Mystery Babylon. Here is one MAJOR example:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats are both doctrines of the RCC and they are called in Scripture Doctrines of Devils. It was hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that the Apostle Peter was married (Mat 8:14) when he was supposedly the First Pope of the RCC. Many of the people I know who left the RCC did so after reading the NT Scriptures so I see no basis for your claims.
| towshab wrote: | | Seriously, show me any good example of "biblical Christianity". Everyone says they are following "biblical Christianity" and yet we see 1000s of different sects. |
You have clearly misunderstood me. I was talking about Christianity according to the Bible, not people! IOW just you and the Bible (OT and NT) before YHWH, asking HIM to guide you into all truth. Christian Churches may teach that one can only know the truth if they ask Jesus but this is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that it is the Father (YHWH) that teaches us and brings us to Jesus:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45
I am not showing you this to highlight that A leads to B but to show you that the NT agrees with the OT in saying that YHWH will teach us all things and that if Jesus is the Truth than we can trust YHWH to lead us to Him. If not than YHWH will lead us away from Him. And just so you know, I believed in the Father long before I came to believe in Jesus and what ultimately caused me to believe in Jesus was when I called out to Jesus in distress and He took my childhood illness away. I eventually found 2 accounts of it written in the Gospels (almost word for word) and it was this that caused me to believe that Jesus was from the Father (YHWH). You might also be interested to know that these accounts were in Matthew and Luke so I personally have much regard and respect for them.
| towshab wrote: | | Quote: | | And IMHO, Biblical Christianity is very practical, placing the betterment of ourselves for the sake of our fellow man Second on the priority list. |
That also seems to be a rarity in the Christian world as well. I wish it was that way, but I don't see it....
Again, show me this "biblical Christianity" and I'll show you someone who opposes your viewpoint while maintaining they too are following "biblical Christianity". |
BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY = YOU, THE BIBLE AND YHWH! FULL STOP!:
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says YHWH, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall you call upon me, and you shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13
Glory in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek YHWH. Seek YHWH, and his strength: seek his face evermore. Psalms 105:3-4
Do you have the faith to believe that YHWH is so Loving and so Humble as to reward a person such as yourself with His presence if you seeked His Face diligently with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength? Many don't so they don't seek Him and don't find Him. What is your desire? Is it to know YHWH personally like those of old times? Both the NT and OT tell me that YHWH hasn't changed. He is still the same yesterday, today and forever and can still be found by people like me and you which is what I seek after. How about you?:
One thing have I desired of YHWH, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of YHWH all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of YHWH, and to inquire in his temple. Psalms 27:4
| towshab wrote: | | There is little doubt in what you say. Churches aren't about G-d anymore. They are corporate entities and social clubs. Your tithe would be better used towards a beneficial charity than given to a church and its salesmen, er, pastors. |
I agree! Isn't it amazing that Churches neglect the OT yet many of them enforce the OT tithe which wasn't money anyway but the firstfruits of the harvest. Something, something just ain't right! Ugh! Ugh!
| towshab wrote: | | Still, if people start dropping out of churches, what will happen? They will miss the "fellowship", will get together amongst themselves, and the next thing you know it, you have another church. |
I reckon if their fellowship was in the Lord and not each other they would have nothing to miss. Not that I am against fellowship if it is not at the expense of our seeking fellowship with YHWH. My mum recently admitted that upon inspection of her life, she realized she only ever seeked the Lord's face (and found Him) when circumstances prevented her from having fellowship with other Christians causing her to feel lonely and depressed. As soon as she was back at Church, all thoughts of the Lord went out the window coz she now had fellowship with people and felt no need (or desire) to seek the Lord. Basically, by her own admission she got busy with Church and forsook the Lord. She also said, "No wonder why my times at Church felt like a Spiritual Desert! I forgot the Lord!"
| towshab wrote: | | Really, that is why there are so many churches. In some parts of the US, there are churches on every street corner. |
Something to keep in mind is that the Church of the Bible was not a building at some address somewhere but it was the people of God where ever they were scattered or gathered. The people of God being those who seek His face; not a Social Club. The greek word for Church is EKKLESIA and here is what one Bible dictionary says about this word:
| Fausset wrote: | | Ekkleesia in the New Testament never means the building or house of assembly, because church buildings were built long AFTER the apostolic age. It means an organized body, whose unity does not depend on its being met together in one place; not an assemblage of atoms, but members in their several places united to the One Head, Christ, and forming one organic living whole (1 Corinthians 12). The bride of Christ (Eph_5:25-32; Eph_1:22), the body of which He is the Head. The household of Christ and of God (Mat_10:25; Eph_2:19). The temple of the Holy Spirit, made up of living stones (Eph_2:22; 1Co_3:16; 1Pe_2:5). Ekkleesia is used of one or more particular Christian associations, even one small enough to worship together in one house (Rom_16:5). Also of "the whole church" (Rom_16:23; 1Co_12:28). |
Jesus even said:
For where two OR three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:20
2 or 3 with Jesus in our midst is all one needs to be considered a Church. Recall also that the Disciples were sent out by 2's and as long as Jesus was in their midst, they were walking and talking members of the Ekklesia of Christ. The sprouts of denominationalism were sprouting up in the days of the Apostles so it is no wonder that it has grown into a huge forest instead of being as it was supposed to be which is many branches of the one tree:
For you are yet carnal: for while there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with solid food: for until now you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able. For you are yet carnal: for while there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that plants anything, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase. Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: you are God's field, you are God's building. 1 Corinthians 3:3-9
Personally, I'd rather seek to be a branch in the one tree of the Lord than to grow another tree in the forest.
Sorry! Long One!  I'll try to behave myself, it's just so hard!
With Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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BL,
You are the last one standing (from Nobby's starting post) so you "win". I just don't have the time right now. Plus for some reason this board is slow for me. I have a couple others that are much speedier. Maybe they need to prune the forum.
Thanks for the debate, very good job!
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: | BL,
You are the last one standing (from Nobby's starting post) so you "win". I just don't have the time right now. Plus for some reason this board is slow for me. I have a couple others that are much speedier. Maybe they need to prune the forum.
Thanks for the debate, very good job! |
Hi towshab,
I reckon we should just call it a draw because I don't have the time right now either. But thank you too, it was a pleasurable yet challenging experience and I think we both handled it amicably. 
Take Care My Friend
Kind Regards
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5304
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Is the One-on-One done? 
_________________
Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | Is the One-on-One done? |
Yes, we're done!
Thanks Nobby
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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