|
|
| Author |
Message |
dattaswami Tadpole
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 18
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: How can God be unimaginable? |
|
|
How can God be unimaginable?
If a student comes and asks the preacher “What is God?” and the preacher says, “God is Unimaginable”; then the student asks again “How God created this world?” and the preacher says, “The process of creation is unimaginable”; the student will think that the preacher does not know the answers for his questions and will leave the preacher. This is the practical problem in revealing the absolute truth. The preacher should say the answers in positive way and the answers should satisfy the logical faculty of the student. Now you should analyze the basis of such logical faculty of the student. The basis is the observation of this world containing all imaginable items only. Hence all his logic is based on the observation of the nature of imaginable items and the relationships between the imaginable items only. This means that the preacher should say that God is an imaginable item and the imaginable process of generation of the imaginable world from imaginable God is in imaginable way only. Every sentence of the preacher should be imaginable to the student and then only the student gets satisfied.
The introduction of the word “Unimaginable” by the preacher leads the student to think that the preacher is ignorant. Hence to satisfy the student and to solve this practical problem, the preacher has to make certain assumptions and should preach about God through hypothesis only and not through real theory.
The reality is that the unimaginable God created the world through unimaginable way.
But to satisfy the student the hypothesis introduced here is that God is pure awareness. Here the infinite ocean of pure awareness is an assumption created because there is no proof of such ocean of awareness anywhere because you can find only the infinite ocean of inert energy. The infinite ocean of awareness is created by the preacher and such ocean charged by God can be treated as God Himself like the live wire treated as current. Now the student is satisfied.
Similarly, the creation of world from God should be also done through the imaginable way answering all the objections through imaginable ways only. This makes again the creation of another assumption for the process of creating the world by God. The assumption here is that a second unimaginable item called as the power of God is created which is modified into the world. Since the power is negligible, the world is negligible and maintains the existence of single God or Brahman. It is like the dream of a person created by the modification of the mind and the mind is negligible compared to the materialistic person. In course of time to satisfy the logic of students, changes in the hypothesis are made by Ramanuja and Madhva who introduced the assumption of a separate material, which is modified as the world without any connection to God.
The hypothetical assumptions can be varied for the sake of preaching the truth to the students in order to satisfy their logic developed from the observation of the world containing only imaginable items. This does not mean that the theories are different.
There is only one real theory that both God and the link between God and world are unimaginable.
But the preaching requires complete elimination of the word unimaginable and the whole preaching should continue with the assumptions of imaginable items and imaginable relationships between those imaginable items only. In such case all the assumptions are not true at all in the absolute sense. In such case you need not misunderstand that the three Acharyas are differing from each other with different theories of truth. The same truth is explained in different ways with different created assumptions of hypothesis for the sake of understanding of various types of mentalities of the students which are always based on the constant observation of imaginable items only (Ekam Sat Viprah bahudha vadanti…..Veda).
The final truth is known to Anjaneya who did not like to preach the truth through assumptions and hence kept silent in preaching. He showed the essence of all the divine knowledge through action (Karma) only because Karma can only be real and fruitful. His recognition of contemporary human incarnation and practical service to Him is the essence of the message of Anjaneya. For those who cannot accept the human incarnation, Shankara preached the divine knowledge with several assumptions and the most powerful assumption is that the soul itself is God. Shankara preached atheists and this powerful assumption attracted them to come and at least here the subject. All the Acharayas followed this method of preaching by assumptions to various levels of students who are based on the logic of imaginable items only. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890 Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 7633 Location: Victoria, Canada
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dattaswami, all three of the threads you've created here are very closely related... Please do not create a new thread for every post you make. You've been on this board for like a day and already you've got more threads in the atheism forum than anyone else! _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PrysdieHeer! Big Pit Bull

Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 392 Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
|
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Q:Can a computer Imagine how it would be to be a man?
A.No, because if it could, it understands man and thus have the same intelligence or higher.
Man does not create anything smarter than himself, for he is not smart enough.
Man can not imagine God for if he could he would have the same or more intelligence than God.
:::::::::::::::::::::::
Prys die Heer! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890 Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 7633 Location: Victoria, Canada
|
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | Q:Can a computer Imagine how it would be to be a man?
A.No, because if it could, it understands man and thus have the same intelligence or higher.
Man does not create anything smarter than himself, for he is not smart enough.
|
Apparently you are unaware of the proof that neural networks and finite state machines have an equivalent computational power.
Finite state machines cannot compute many things which Turing machines can compute, and computers are Turing machines.
Since our brains are neural networks, this strongly suggests that there are things which computers can do that we can't. _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PrysdieHeer! Big Pit Bull

Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 392 Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
|
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Apparently you are unaware of the proof that neural networks and finite state machines have an equivalent computational power.
Finite state machines cannot compute many things which Turing machines can compute, and computers are Turing machines.
Since our brains are neural networks, this strongly suggests that there are things which computers can do that we can't. |
The human brain is a lot smarter than a coputer.
:::::::::::::::::
I can asure you if you do a lot of math and never use a calculator, you would start thinkink faster than a calculator.
:::::::::::::::::::
Prys die Heer! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890 Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 7633 Location: Victoria, Canada
|
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
Apparently you are unaware of the proof that neural networks and finite state machines have an equivalent computational power.
Finite state machines cannot compute many things which Turing machines can compute, and computers are Turing machines.
Since our brains are neural networks, this strongly suggests that there are things which computers can do that we can't. |
The human brain is a lot smarter than a coputer.
:::::::::::::::::
I can asure you if you do a lot of math and never use a calculator, you would start thinkink faster than a calculator.
:::::::::::::::::::
|
I'm sorry PrysdieHeer, you don't know what you're talking about. The human brain is a neural network. Computers are Turing Machines. Turing Machines are more powerful in a computational sense than neural networks. _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PrysdieHeer! Big Pit Bull

Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 392 Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
|
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | I'm sorry PrysdieHeer, you don't know what you're talking about. The human brain is a neural network. Computers are Turing Machines. Turing Machines are more powerful in a computational sense than neural networks. |
They contain more Electricity but cannot mach the computing power of the human brain.
::::::::::::::::
Prys die Heer! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890 Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 7633 Location: Victoria, Canada
|
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: |
They contain more Electricity but cannot mach the computing power of the human brain.
|
I don't think you understand; it has been mathematically proven that Turing Machines (i.e. computers) can compute things which neural networks (our brains) cannot. There is nothing stronger than a mathematical proof. There is no debating this. _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PrysdieHeer! Big Pit Bull

Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 392 Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
|
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: |
I don't think you understand; it has been mathematically proven that Turing Machines (i.e. computers) can compute things which neural networks (our brains) cannot. There is nothing stronger than a mathematical proof. There is no debating this. |
How can you use math on something we are still trying to figure out?
::::::::::::::::::::::
Prys die Heer! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890 Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 7633 Location: Victoria, Canada
|
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
I don't think you understand; it has been mathematically proven that Turing Machines (i.e. computers) can compute things which neural networks (our brains) cannot. There is nothing stronger than a mathematical proof. There is no debating this. |
How can you use math on something we are still trying to figure out?
|
This is why I keep encouraging you to go get a proper science education; because science has discovered A LOT which you don't know...
I'm not giving you this advice for *my* sake; I'm actually and honestly trying to help you! _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PrysdieHeer! Big Pit Bull

Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 392 Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
|
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: |
This is why I keep encouraging you to go get a proper science education; because science has discovered A LOT which you don't know...
I'm not giving you this advice for *my* sake; I'm actually and honestly trying to help you! |
Thanks for trying to help me brother.
I`m also trying to help you. To go to Heaven.
::::::::::::::::
Prys die Heer! _________________ Love is never a problem, it is always the solution!
If God did not exist, you would not Exist.
Im a YEC. Find out more on www.yecheadquarters.org |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Plotinus Growing Lion

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 894 Location: Canada
|
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | Apparently you are unaware of the proof that neural networks and finite state machines have an equivalent computational power.
Finite state machines cannot compute many things which Turing machines can compute, and computers are Turing machines.
Since our brains are neural networks, this strongly suggests that there are things which computers can do that we can't. |
Hi P#, thought I would drop in to follow the discussion a bit. Interesting thread as always, although by gum I have been around in circles on computationalism, AI and the brain in recent months.
If you are interested in posting this, you might tighten up the arguments a bit so that others have a chance to follow what you are saying. For example, statement two above needs some care. Turing machines as Turing first proposed them are finite state machines. So the statement you make above can be interpreted in a way that makes it false. You are right that computers are Turing machines. In particular, however, they are Universal Turing Machines, to which many of your statements more appropriately apply.
In statement 3 it might be more precise to say that brains can be modelled as neural networks. There are chemical processes happening in the brain which presumably are best modelled in other ways. _________________ One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890 Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 7633 Location: Victoria, Canada
|
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Plotinus wrote: |
If you are interested in posting this, you might tighten up the arguments a bit so that others have a chance to follow what you are saying.
|
That's precisely why I left out so many details! I figured that I was already getting way too technical.
| Plotinus wrote: |
For example, statement two above needs some care. Turing machines as Turing first proposed them are finite state machines. So the statement you make above can be interpreted in a way that makes it false. |
I don't think this is true. I am pretty sure that Turing's original "On Computable Numbers..." paper did not describe FSMs, but rather described Turing Machines with tapes.
| Plotinus wrote: |
In statement 3 it might be more precise to say that brains can be modelled as neural networks. There are chemical processes happening in the brain which presumably are best modelled in other ways. |
This is a reasonable point to make, but at the very least the proof that FSMs can simulate neural nets should encourage AI researchers to some extent... _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Plotinus Growing Lion

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 894 Location: Canada
|
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | I don't think this is true. I am pretty sure that Turing's original "On Computable Numbers..." paper did not describe FSMs, but rather described Turing Machines with tapes.
|
Correct. Turing did supply an infinite amount of tape. This is equivalent to a computer having an infinite disc. However, in the usual definition of "finite state" the number of positions on the tape is not included. The number of internal states of the machine is what counts. At least this is the traditional definition. For example:
"A Turing machine is a finite-state machine associated with an external storage or memory medium." (Minsky)
The definition has undergone some changes over the years which may explain the confusion between you and me here. But that is a good reason to state it carefully. _________________ One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Plotinus Growing Lion

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 894 Location: Canada
|
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | This is a reasonable point to make, but at the very least the proof that FSMs can simulate neural nets should encourage AI researchers to some extent...
|
As you know I am a theist who believes that we both have souls. Nevertheless I am a strong supporter of AI research. _________________ One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|