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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | ... The answer to your questions is really pretty simple.
If God could not preserve the house of Israel the linage to Christ would be lost. Basically that is the reason for the mass slaughter of the enemy.
It is obvious in the reading of the OT that it took very little to sway his chosen people to idol worship and join in the heathen nations.
The house of Israel would not survive if they turned to idols and the linage of Christ would be lost forever and so would our salvation.
After the birth of Christ the danger of loosing the linage was gone and the NT began. God extended his hands to the enemy (the Gentiles nations) and they became part of His grace and mercy, which was not possible until the New Covenant began.
The Jew and Gentile have become one and you do not kill your brother.
In reading the OT you will always see Gods retaliation against the enemy when they came against the those to whom God had chosen to bear His only begotten Son.
Hope that you are now able to see more clearly the extent of God's mercy and grace.
In Christ, Judy |
Well stated !
I do not see those two testaments as being opposites at all, just slightly different facets of God.
During the time of Eden God walked among His people and had a very distinctive relationship with Man.
During the time of the Patriarchs, God had a distinctive relationship with those men.
After the Law was given, once again God had a very distinctive relationship with Man.
None of these are contradictory.
There is a story: times change, circumstances change, people change.
God's relationship to His people changes, these changes are commonly called dispensations. No contradictions exist. No opposites, not in God's face. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| galen wrote: |
God's relationship to His people changes, these changes are commonly called dispensations. |
I do not accept this statement, as being Biblical.
The Bible says: Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever".
Which means, Christ was the very same as He was from Genesis to Revelation.
Christ, is the same God, in Genesis all the way tru to Revelation, without changing in the very least, HIS relationship towards people.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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james
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | galen wrote: |
God's relationship to His people changes, these changes are commonly called dispensations. |
I do not accept this statement, as being Biblical.
The Bible says: Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever".
Which means, Christ was the very same as He was from Genesis to Revelation.
Christ, is the same God, in Genesis all the way tru to Revelation, without changing in the very least, HIS relationship towards people. |
I believe galen's statement to be absolutely true and biblical. Yes, Jesus can not change but this does not mean His RELATIONSHIP to His people can not change. For in the OT people were to sacrifice animals as a part of their "relationship" with God, or sacrifices were a requirement to show they had a relationship with God, it was the only way to atone for their sins. Today God no longer requires sacrifices, but through His Holy spirit He continues His relationship with us, something that could not be done until Christ died for the sins of all once and for all, no longer requiring sacrifices.
Hebrews chapters 8 -10, clearly show a change of relationship for through the sacrifice of Christ, He now dwells IN US. We do not have to go through a High priest to atone for our sins as in the OT, but ourselves personally can go to God, having that more personal relationship with Him through Christs' sacrifce. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | galen wrote: |
God's relationship to His people changes, these changes are commonly called dispensations. |
I do not accept this statement, as being Biblical.
The Bible says: Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever".
Which means, Christ was the very same as He was from Genesis to Revelation.
Christ, is the same God, in Genesis all the way tru to Revelation, without changing in the very least, HIS relationship towards people. |
The Gospel of the Christian is a seperate dispensation, seperate from previous dispensations.
1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit
:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord
:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| galen wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | galen wrote: |
God's relationship to His people changes, these changes are commonly called dispensations. |
I do not accept this statement, as being Biblical.
The Bible says: Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever".
Which means, Christ was the very same as He was from Genesis to Revelation.
Christ, is the same God, in Genesis all the way tru to Revelation, without changing in the very least, HIS relationship towards people. |
The Gospel of the Christian is a seperate dispensation, seperate from previous dispensations.
1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit
:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord
:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
:) |
Another example of God's warnings, about Paul's writings.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | ... Another example of God's warnings, about Paul's writings. |
Is it just God's Word penned by Paul that you reject?
Or do you reject other portions of God's Word too? |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer Is there any difference between the covenant God had with Israel before Jesus came and the covenant God had with Israel after Jesus Came? |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Good point!
I am not aware of any changes made to God's covenant with His people. Comparing the covenant from before Jesus Christ came, to after Pentecost.
Within the Books of the 'New Testament' that earlier covenant is mentioned many times and clearly continues on. There will be Jews who continue to attempt to gain righteousness via the Law of Moses.
Where there was once Jews and Gentiles, today there are Jews, Christians, and Gentiles. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Hi galen,
There is a New Covenant!
Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Old Covenant expired at the resurrection of Christ.
Hebrews 10:9-10, "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
In Christ, Judy |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Hi galen,
There is a New Covenant!
Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Old Covenant expired at the resurrection of Christ.
Hebrews 10:9-10, "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
In Christ, Judy |
God does not say that it expired.
Calls it 'old'
Well we all call it 'old', that don't mean it expired though.
God says that are three kind of folks today:
Jews, Christians, and Gentiles.
The Old testament makes Jews,
The New Testament makes Christians,
to refuse both makes a Gentile. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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galen,
galen wrote:
| Quote: | God says that are three kind of folks today:
Jews, Christians, and Gentiles.
The Old testament makes Jews,
The New Testament makes Christians,
to refuse both makes a Gentile. |
The way I see it, and what the New Covenant (Covenant and Testament are the same) says, is:
Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Ephesians 4:4-6, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
The middle wall of partition was broken down between the Jew and Gentile when Christ died for the sins of the world.
Eph 2:12-15, "That at that time ye were without Christ (OT Gentiles), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one (both Jew and Gentile) and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15) Having abolished in his flesh the ennity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the ennity thereby."
In Christ, Judy |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | | Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, .... ye are all one in Christ Jesus." |
You are all, hmm, kind of implies an audience.
Galatians was addressed to Christians
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Ephesians was addressed to the faithful in Christ Jesus
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
In a closed group of people, speaking to them, none of them are Jews or Gentiles any longer. The middle wall was broken down for them. |
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Plotinus
Growing Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 894
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Great thread.
Comparing so-called Old and New Testaments, I do think that there are big differences. But the OT writings occurred over a much greater historical period with an ever changing relationship to God, expressed through a succession of covenants.
As Jesus makes clear, the law of love was not complete, but was given to a hard people living in a harsh time. Eg, Matthew 19:8.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Ardnassdac
Goldfish
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 56
Location: Wales
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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I know I'm probrably one of the youngest here, and so really shouldn't be questioning you all..
But have any of you thought that maybe you're reading too much into this?
Maybe both sides of God are true, both the old and new...
People change,
why cant god?
Maybe he learnt from a mistake, or simply evolved as we have, learnt that fighting isn't right and to love someone is better.
Over time our laws and justice systems have changed, once we thought differently to how we do now..
Does that mean that we all have to find out why we now think differently? No, it obvious, it's because we have become more intellegent, more aware of peoples feelings, and more sensible. Yes we still have wepons and wars, but this will stop eventually, when we evolve more.
We still have things to learn. So whose to say God is not still learning? |
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