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Ebal Trace
German Shepherd
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 337
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 Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | Ebal Trace wrote: | | Does Jesus preach Gnostic Theology? |
No.
Not if you are familiar with Gnostic theology.
Yehu |
No I am not familiar with Gnostic theology.
But I read in the Catholic Encyclopedia....
Gnosticism
The doctrine of salvation by knowledge. This definition, based on the etymology of the word (gnosis "knowledge", gnostikos, "good at knowing"), is correct as far as it goes, but it gives only one, though perhaps the predominant, characteristic of Gnostic systems of thought. Whereas Judaism and Christianity, and almost all pagan systems, hold that the soul attains its proper end by obedience of mind and will to the Supreme Power, i.e. by faith and works, it is markedly peculiar to Gnosticism that it places the salvation of the soul merely in the possession of a quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of magic formulae indicative of that knowledge. Gnostics were "people who knew", and their knowledge at once constituted them a superior class of beings, whose present and future status was essentially different from that of those who, for whatever reason, did not know.
The reason that I asked the question about Jesus was that the Scriptures I quoted seemed to hint at salvation for those who "knew" and not for those who couldn't know.
Matthew 11:25-27 (King James Version)
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matthew 13:11-12 (King James Version)
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Ebal Trace
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Proverbs 14:15 (King James Version)
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. |
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Ebal Trace
German Shepherd
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Is this Gnostic theology?
Ephesians 1:4-5 (King James Version)
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Romans 8:29-30 (King James Version)
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11 (King James Version)
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Have some been chosen from the foundation of the earth, predestined to be sons of God?
And are some just left behind?
Ebal Trace
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Proverbs 14:15 (King James Version)
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2739
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Ebal,
There are probably a lot of good websites nowadays that could bring you up to speed on Gnostic theology, specifically that which is taught within the texts found at Nag Hamadi. You might wish to start with wikipedia and spread out from there.
However, certain Key elements remain, first and foremost, that the Father of Jesus is not the creator of the cosmos. THAT creator, the Jewish YHWH, was a bumbling minor deity who produced a flawed creation. Jesus was actually the son of the Mother Barbello. There are other various aions (or greater deities) up to the Actual God of Gods, but the song and dance is that Jesus came to give you (only you) special knowledge that certain people are elements of the divine spark (or pieces of God) “trapped” within a corrupt physical universe. This special knowledge will be embraced by these people, who will then understand how to escape back to the heavens where they belong.
Another key element is that Jesus, who was divine, could not actually possess a physical body, since that would corrupt him. He only appeared to have a body. And the crucifixion didn’t actually happen, it was merely a morality play put on to confuse the public (while the Gnostic could tell you the REAL rest of the story).
| Ebal Trace wrote: | | The reason that I asked the question about Jesus was that the Scriptures I quoted seemed to hint at salvation for those who "knew" and not for those who couldn't know. |
Gnosticism is not defined by any mere act of “knowing” but rather that special knowledge is given about Jesus which contradicts what most people believe (you know, the gullible Catholic masses?) Gnosticism is an appeal to the pride of identifying with an elite group. You get to laugh at all the others who follow the New Testament texts about Jesus, while “knowing” the REAL deal. Even believing that the New Testament purposefully misleads about Jesus so that only those “in the gnosis” know what’s going on.
Yehu
PS: To my knowledge, predestination is not a theme in Gnostic theology.
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Ebal Trace
German Shepherd
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | Ebal,
There are probably a lot of good websites nowadays that could bring you up to speed on Gnostic theology, specifically that which is taught within the texts found at Nag Hamadi. You might wish to start with wikipedia and spread out from there.
However, certain Key elements remain, first and foremost, that the Father of Jesus is not the creator of the cosmos. THAT creator, the Jewish YHWH, was a bumbling minor deity who produced a flawed creation. Jesus was actually the son of the Mother Barbello. There are other various aions (or greater deities) up to the Actual God of Gods, but the song and dance is that Jesus came to give you (only you) special knowledge that certain people are elements of the divine spark (or pieces of God) “trapped” within a corrupt physical universe. This special knowledge will be embraced by these people, who will then understand how to escape back to the heavens where they belong.
Another key element is that Jesus, who was divine, could not actually possess a physical body, since that would corrupt him. He only appeared to have a body. And the crucifixion didn’t actually happen, it was merely a morality play put on to confuse the public (while the Gnostic could tell you the REAL rest of the story).
| Ebal Trace wrote: | | The reason that I asked the question about Jesus was that the Scriptures I quoted seemed to hint at salvation for those who "knew" and not for those who couldn't know. |
Gnosticism is not defined by any mere act of “knowing” but rather that special knowledge is given about Jesus which contradicts what most people believe (you know, the gullible Catholic masses?) Gnosticism is an appeal to the pride of identifying with an elite group. You get to laugh at all the others who follow the New Testament texts about Jesus, while “knowing” the REAL deal. Even believing that the New Testament purposefully misleads about Jesus so that only those “in the gnosis” know what’s going on.
Yehu
PS: To my knowledge, predestination is not a theme in Gnostic theology. |
Thank you for your explanation
Ebal Trace
_________________
Proverbs 14:15 (King James Version)
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. |
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mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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It is an interesting read Zathrus.
I can also recommend:
"Deceived By The New Age".
Which has similar themes.
But this idea that we can have "an inner witness" that supercedes the "bible" is a gnostic/new age/spiritualist based idea.
As satan is the originator of all those ideas, I would expect to see a common thread.
So as soon as anyone starts to say their "impressions" are superior to the bible and try to use "selective" texts to prove this, whilst rejecting other portions, I see the same spirit at work.
And it is not from God as scripture clearly shows.
As a matter of curiosity Yehushuan, what books of the bible are acceptable?
Mark
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2739
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| mtimber wrote: | | As a matter of curiosity Yehushuan, what books of the bible are acceptable? |
You just blindly push on without a clue don’t you?
Isn’t it interesting when a valid point is made you just disappear for two weeks or so and then come back ignoring all the previous posts to you and just repeat the same nonsense ad-infinitum?
You need an integrity check Mark.
And instead of following your tricks and answering your question, why don’t you re-read the thread and provide an adequate reason for why you believe why God wants you to be led by a book when the VERY SAME Book tells you that you are to be led by the Spirit of God.
Satan would much rather you NOT believe what is actually written. So you tell me who’s deceived.
And while you’re at it, you can continue on to try and provide an adequate reason for why you believe God is able to ensure that a Catholic Bishop can get the list of books right, but CANNOT ensure that the very same Catholic Bishop can understand salvation.
Or you can just go away for another two weeks and try to ignore this post too.
Darth Yehu
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| mtimber wrote: | It is an interesting read Zathrus.
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Quite.
So where do the 4 identifying traits you listed come from?
| mtimber wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: |
| mtimber wrote: | Common traits and identifying features of a gnostic believer:
1. A superiority complex derived from the idea that "one" is enlightened above those who are less fortunate.
2. Presentation of the idea that scripture is subject to spiritual impressions given to those that "have the truth".
3. Condemnation of the bible and its canonicity.
4. The idea that experience is the filter and emotional feelings are an evidence of the Holy Spirit.
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What source cited these traits as identifying a believer in gnosticism? |
If you perform a search on the text quoted above Zathrus, you will find the webpage.
The online book is entitled Strange Fire.
Very interesting read.
Mark |
I got the impression they were from the link you gave but they're not there. Was I mistaken in understanding they were from some expert source? Did you yourself come up with that list?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi Zathrus.
It was indeed from my studies across many different sources.
Yehushuan, it is a valid question.
As you are saying not all the accepted canon is inspired, can you share what you believe is and isn't?
To not accept the canon and accept your opinion would be to doubt the early church and the tradition they developed and to doubt if they were led at all by the Spirit.
Why should anyone accept any single persons "impressions" over the canon?
Are you not saying you are inspired above the earliest sources and that your impressions are to be trusted over the canon?
Why should I accept that?
Where do you get your "authority" from Yehushuan?
That is the way I am reading your posts and position, please correct me if this is wrong.
Mark
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| mtimber wrote: | Hi Zathrus.
It was indeed from my studies across many different sources. |
I see. Well, I asked for the specific source(s) from which that list came. Do you have one/them?
You know, if you had a specific source which you could cite, it would tremendously help your position in this discussion.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2739
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| mtimber wrote: | | Yehushuan, it is a valid question. |
As are mine. You were first. So go ahead.
As regards to my authority?
I keep answering this and you keep acting like an ignoramus, asking the same thing over and over.
(Joh 16:13 KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Last time I looked, the Bible wasn't a he.
Darth Yehu
(You don't have the guts to answer my previous post do you? As comprehension slowly dawns.  Or is it that you KNOW you can't?)
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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All of these "heresies" are creeping into the churches because Christianity is losing its relevance. Anything to revive the dead.
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Towshab,
How very pessimistic, Elijah had the same "lone prophet" viewpoint but was corrected by God:
1Kings 19
13 So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
14 And he said, “I have been very zealous for the LORD God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”
15 Then the LORD said to him: “Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria.
16 Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place.
17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill.
18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (emphasis added)
The Church is more relevant than ever at this time, and as the days grow darker, so our contrast grows stronger like flames against the night. When the world follows after the antichrist and we draw wrath upon ourselves for not taking his mark, THIS WILL BE OUR FINEST HOUR!
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What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Brother timber, welcome back! It has been a while since you visited. I hope you and your loved ones have been well.
I have not forgotten that I asked for specific sources from which you got your list of characteristics identifying a gnostic. | mtimber wrote: | Hi Zathrus.
It was indeed from my studies across many different sources. |
Have you any sources to cite? I have asked you this direct question a few times in this thread, yet have received no answer. Yet on page 1 of this same thread, you fault Yehu for not answering adirect question of yours.
Your list of characteristics:
| mtimber wrote: | Common traits and identifying features of a gnostic believer:
1. A superiority complex derived from the idea that "one" is enlightened above those who are less fortunate.
2. Presentation of the idea that scripture is subject to spiritual impressions given to those that "have the truth".
3. Condemnation of the bible and its canonicity.
4. The idea that experience is the filter and emotional feelings are an evidence of the Holy Spirit.
|
These read like a profile of your perception of one member of this forum, namely Yehu.
Can you see how this might look very much as though you simply listed a profile of one forum member, or your impressions of him, and used that to define a Gnostic? And then you asked him straight out if he was one.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mark,
you wrote:
| Quote: | | Why should anyone accept any single persons "impressions" over the canon? |
I can hear the exact same argument taking place in the Synagogues in Jerusalem..
This Paul is just a man, he contradicts the scriptues. Why should anyone accept this man's "impressions" over the scriptures?
What was it that led Paul? From what books or canon did he recieve his understanding from?
When Peter recognized the Lord, Jesus said, flesh and blood..(no man, no stone, no letter), hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
How is it that Peter knew?
Even the Priests and Pharisees and scribes searching the scriptures and teaching from them did not even recognize their own Lord.
So there has to be something "more" than just words written in stone or written on paper that leads one to "know" and to "hear" and to "see"...
no?
It has to come from somewhere..within maybe?
hugs
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Hello Zathrus 
There are many sources from various places that would be impossible for my finite mind to recall now.
But I recommend Ellen Whites writings (go online to the white estate website and search the database on the word "spiritualism"). The reason I say this, is that it is scattered through her writings and a search will bring up many interesting insights.
The bible itself deals with spiritualism/gnosticism in all its forms.
But the writing of Ellen White are an excellent source to start with.
The four points were a definition that I have arrived at through extensive studies and reading on these subjects.
Please bare that in mind and take as is...
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http://abiding-in-christ.blogspot.com/ |
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