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WHAT IS SATAN?

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Nobby
Board - Admin

Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5303

Location: Missouri

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:39 am Post subject:

Quote:

Matt 16:20-25
20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Peter wasn't Satan, but he had allow Satan in. Jesus had taught Peter & the rest what was to come & peter rebuked Jesus, "this shall not be!"

Quote:

for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Just means that Peter did not have things in his heart that was of God, but those that be of men. That's all.
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject:

Bitterlily wrote:

trettep wrote:

Bitterlily, do you see this verse as saying that Satan worships man?

I wouldn't say that Satan worships man but that he has something to gain by keeping them in bondage to the things of man. As long as man savours the things of man then Satan has dominion over them. I'll explain how I see this occurring in a minute.

Recall that in the beginning God gave dominion to Man over all the earth and the Beasts that He created! :

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth (including Serpents). Genesis 1:26

But instead of accepting this dominion that God gave to Man they surrendered it to the Beasts of the Earth:

Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death (sin being the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4), or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16

The Law of God was transgressed when Adam yielded himself to serve the will of the Serpent, thus giving the Beasts dominion over Man rather than Man over Beast as God commanded. Jesus came to take the Dominion back from the Beasts of the Earth and restore it to Man:

And immediately the Spirit drove him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him. Mark 1:12-13

If Satan could cause Jesus to yield Himself to his will, then the Dominion would have remained in Satan's hands. But thankfully Jesus resisted and won back the Dominion:

And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

Teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

This included the following:

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19

Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons: freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8

Verily I say unto you, whatsoever you shall BIND on earth shall be BOUND in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:18

And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, He has Beelzebub, and by the prince of the demons casts he out demons. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? Mark 3:22-23...No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first BIND the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. Mark 3:27

I would also ask, how can any man BIND anything that he doesn't believe exists? The result of this is people remain oppressed by the Strong Man who has taken them captive and has the Dominion in their houses:

And when he came to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with demons, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. Matthew 8:28

And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, who had demons for a long time, and wore no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. Luke 8:27

I don't know if you have ever noticed that Jesus made a distinction between those who were deceived by the Devil and those who were oppressed by the Devil. Search all the verses and you will find that all those who were oppressed or possessed by Demons were healed; the Captives were set free (LOOSED); their Captors were cast out (BOUND)!

This for me is why this subject of Satan is particularly dear to me! My heart goes out to all the Captives and I think you'd be surprised at how many of them know that they are Captives and spend most of their lives yearning for someone to set them free! How do I know? I was once a Captive myself and in 23 years (from the age of 4) I didn't meet a Christian that had the faith to Bind the Strong Man and set me free. Believe me when I say, I did everything in my power ( Embarassed

) to bind him but I was unable. And when I gave up hope of ever being free and lived in utter fear of life and death, thankfully the Lord Jesus had compassion and set me free himself as He promised He would do:

As I live, says the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became food to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; Therefore, O you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be food for them. For thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search for my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered on a cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a rich pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, says the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 34:8-15

I have become convinced through my own experience and that of many others that we are living in the time that Jesus is fulfilling these verses from Ezekiel. He is amongst His sheep that are scattered and He is seeking each one of them and feeding them Himself. The rest of the Chapter speaks of the Lord Judging between those of His flock:

And as for you, O my flock, thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between the rams and the male goats. Ezekiel 34:17

And also:

And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. And the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield its increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those who enslaved them. And they shall no more be a prey to the nations, neither shall the beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. Ezekiel 34:25-28

Did you notice how the Lord said that His flock became food for all the beasts of the field. If Satan can get us to savour the things of Man then we become food for all the beasts of the field, the serpents of the dust and the fowls of the air. Look at these verses:

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places (WITHOUT WATER), seeking rest, and finds none. Matthew 12:43

The word translated "dry" is the same word translated as "WITHOUT WATER" when Peter speaks of "Wells Without Water in 2 Pet 2:17 and when Jude talks about "Clouds Without Water" in Jud 1:12.

The Water spoken of here (or the lack thereof) is obviously the Water of the Holy Spirit that the unclean spirit is seeking to find rest. And it seems that he only finds this Water and Rest dwelling in Man which is why he tempts them to savour the things of Man so that he can regain the dominion over man:

Then he said, I will return into my house from where I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished. Then he goes, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12:44-45

Have you ever noticed the compassion that Jesus showed to these unclean Spirits when they sought it from Him:

And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the abyss. And there was there a herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would allow them to enter into them. And he allowed them. Luke 8:31-32

So much more to say but I'll await your reply.

With Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

Last edited by bitterlily on Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:47 pm; edited 3 times in total

trettep
Lion

Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject:

Nobby wrote:

Quote:

Peter wasn't Satan, but he had allow Satan in. Jesus had taught Peter & the rest what was to come & peter rebuked Jesus, "this shall not be!"

Quote:

for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Just means that Peter did not have things in his heart that was of God, but those that be of men. That's all.

The circumstance I see is that Jesus is addressing Satan when He tells him that he (Satan) is the one that regards the things of man and not of God.

So when you say it means Peter did not have the things in his heart that was of God but those that be of men - I don't disagree but my point is that is those things of men what Satan is all about. In other words is Satan the spirit "of man"?

Paul

trettep
Lion

Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject:

bitterlily wrote:

trettep wrote:

Bitterlily, do you see this verse as saying that Satan worships man?

trettep wrote:

See this is what struck me about that verse because if Satan is mindful or regarding the things of man then why? I would have thought previously that man's fault was in savouring the things that were of Satan and not viceversa. That is what intrigues me about the verses is how it is worded. This makes me think that the spirit of man is Satan. This is important to make the destinction because if that is the case then our universalism takes a different perspective on salvation of Satan. If it is indeed a reference to the spirit in man then it would have to be concluded as the dross.

Scripture seems to give a distinct difference to the Spirit of Satan, the Spirit of Man and the Spirit of God in these verses:

For what man knows the things of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11

The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16

In which in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now ACTIVE in the children of UNBELIEF: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Ephesians 2:2-3

The best way I can describe how I am hearing this is by using the telephone as a metaphor for the Spirit. God has a phone, Man has a phone and Satan has a phone. While we were the children of Unbelief our Phone-line was connected to Satan's-line whom we had many conversations with....

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has made us alive together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;) And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-7

I personally believe that many times in our lifetime we hear a beep signalling to us that there is another caller on the line but we ignore it. But then one day the Call-waiting signal keeps beeping and beeping that we can no longer ignore it and we answer the Call and find the Spirit of God on the other line. From that day forward our life is never the same and we awake each morning with the hope that we will pick up the phone and find the Spirit of God still on the Line. But Satan doesn't give up so easily, as he looks for any oppotunity to get us back on the Line with him:

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8

Many times we fall for it and answer Satan's call just like Peter did:

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and when you have returned, strengthen your brethren. Luke 22:31-32

After many failures we eventually learn as Peter did to recognise Satan's call coming in and ignore it:

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Ephesians 6:11

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7

I have been encouraged to cut down my posts so I will end it here and start a new post to explain how I believe the following occurs:

Bitterlily wrote:

I wouldn't say that Satan worships man but that he has something to gain by keeping man in bondage to the things of man. As long as man savours the things of man then Satan has dominion over them.

Much Love
Bitterlily

I don't see any of the verses contradicting my perception that Satan could be a reference to the spirit of mankind. Consider that Satan is the god of this world and yet man was given dominion:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Is this a contradiction? Who has the rule of this world? Is it man or Satan?

Paul

JohnStevenson
Little Goldfish

Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 50

Location: Hollywood, FL USA

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Masterful scholarship. Satan stands in opposition to God and yet God holds a friendly contest with him?

Nothing masterful about it. A third grade education would be enough to see that Satan is described as an individual in the book of Job and that there is nothing friendly about the "contest."

JohnStevenson wrote:

The idea of Satan as a singular being opposed to God originated shortly before the Christians as a result of various pagan influences on Judaism

Perhaps I assumed too much when I referred to having a third grade education. Job is penned considerably prior to the New Testament and the advent of Christianity. Yet Satan is pictured there as a singular being opposed to God.
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John Stevenson

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338

Location: Memphis

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject:

JohnStevenson wrote:

Nothing masterful about it. A third grade education would be enough to see that Satan is described as an individual in the book of Job and that there is nothing friendly about the "contest."

Do be a dear, then, and post any verses which lead you to believe there was any sort of antagonism between God and Satan in Job.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

JohnStevenson
Little Goldfish

Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 50

Location: Hollywood, FL USA

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

JohnStevenson wrote:

Nothing masterful about it. A third grade education would be enough to see that Satan is described as an individual in the book of Job and that there is nothing friendly about the "contest."

Do be a dear, then, and post any verses which lead you to believe there was any sort of antagonism between God and Satan in Job.

If I were to institute a contest here on this forum to see if I could get people to curse your name, I doubt that you would see it as friendly banter.
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John Stevenson

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:12 am Post subject:

trettep wrote:

I don't see any of the verses contradicting my perception that Satan could be a reference to the spirit of mankind.

Sorry Paul,

I must be misunderstanding you so can you clarify for me? When you say Spirit of Mankind do you mean 1) Satan is the Spirit which Man's Spirit Communes with OR 2) literally Satan is Man's Spirit?

This may sound like a silly question but I see them as distinctly different.

If you were to answer with No:2 then I would been inclined to say this does contradict one of the Scriptures I quoted above, that being:

The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16

The words translated as "bears witness with" is the greek word summartureō and it is also defined in the Bible dictionaries as meaning "to bear joint witness" or testify jointly. Does this remind you of anything? As I was looking up this word I was reminded of how Jesus said:

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me. John 8:17-18

Just like the Romans verse says about us the Spirit also beared witness with Jesus Spirit that He was the Son of God.

Remember also that the Spirit of Satan didn't bear witness that Jesus was the Son of God but instead tempted Him to prove that He was the Son of God.

How does that sound?

Much Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:39 am Post subject:

Hi Paul,

I had another thought about this comment that I made:

bitterlily wrote:

Remember also that the Spirit of Satan didn't bear witness that Jesus was the Son of God but instead tempted Him to prove that He was the Son of God.

I was reminded of these verses:

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with you, Jesus, you Son of God? have you come here to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29

And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, You are the Son of God. And he sternly charged them that they should not make him known. Mark 3:11-12

And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the most high God? I adjure you by God, that you torment me not. For he had said unto him, Come out of the man, you unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is your name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. Mark 5:7-9

And demons also came out of many, crying out, and saying, You are Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them permitted them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. Luke 4:41

The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, who show unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being troubled, turned and said to the spirit, I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. Acts 16:17-18

All the unclean spirits that were cast out of people knew that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God. And the following verse tells us:

For what man knows the things of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11

How did these unclean Spirits know the things of God? The only answer I can come up with is that they were originally the Angels of God who left their first estate:

And the angels who kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:9-10

Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

trettep
Lion

Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:09 am Post subject:

bitterlily wrote:

trettep wrote:

I don't see any of the verses contradicting my perception that Satan could be a reference to the spirit of mankind.

Hi Bitterlily, no I don't see those verses as contradictions either and I believe that Satan is both 1 and 2. Let me first say what I believe "spirit" to be. I believe "spirit" is a reference to the "BEING" of someone. For example, I believe the Holy Spirit to be the "BEING" of the Father Himself (God). So in other words if you Bitterlily made a list on paper and described yourself - not your physical attributes but those that comprise who Bitterlily is such as you mental attributes you would be putting your "spirit" on that paper. That LIST of Words would contain your "spirit". It might be strange to think of me saying that those words would not contain our "spirit" but Jesus made a similiar references to His Words containing Spirit:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said His Words ARE Spirit. So who's Words are they and we will know who's Spirit that is:

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

So they are not Jesus Words that He spoke but the Father's Words. They are His Spirit which I believe to be the Holy Spirit.

Now consider for a moment bitterlily if you took your List (recall from earlier). That List contains who YOU are. It contains your Spirit on paper in words. Now have someone take your words (your list) and emulate in their BEING what is on your list. When they do that they will have received your spirit. But for that to happen they would be losing their own spirit because they would no longer be emulating who they themselves were but would be emulating YOU. This is exactly what I believe happens with us. This is EXACTLY how I believe we RECEIVE the Holy Spirit and HOW it destroys the "old man" in us. Consider this:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

It is the Holy Spirit that washes away and regenerates someone. So it is the Holy Spirit that we receive from the Father via the very Words that Jesus Spoke. We won't emulate them of course UNLESS we believe them (Have Faith). So it is no wonder that we only receive the Holy Spirit once we believe:

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So now back to your post. You mentioned this verse:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Now this "beareth witness" means "corroborate" according to Strongs Concordance and that is exactly what happens. See if we now look at the man's spirit that has receive the Holy Spirit then his LIST will not appear like God's List. He can be validated as to having the same BEING as the Father in Heaven. Therefore, if He is of the same BEING as the Father in Heaven then He is His Child - a Child of God. So the Holy Spirit is our authentication that we are the Children of God. In other words if we don't exhibit that same Spirit we are none of His.

As for Satan tempting Jesus I'm still studying it but am not so quick to believe it isn't the SAME Spirit that works by default in a man that hasn't received the Holy Spirit. Here is why:

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

If Satan is ANOTHER spirit entity that man serves and serves himself then that would mean that some men choose Satan while others choose themselves. But everyone is serving Satan. Satan is the god of this world that has decieved everyone. Everyone that has sinned has served Satan.

Look at the characteristics of Satan - Satan regards the things of man. Satan likes what man likes. Satan caters therefore the flesh. So there is nothing to set Satan apart from the spirit of the flesh. So I believe a reference to Satan means a reference the Spirit of the Flesh.

Paul

trettep
Lion

Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:52 am Post subject:

bitterlily wrote:

Hi Paul,

I had another thought about this comment that I made:

bitterlily wrote:

Remember also that the Spirit of Satan didn't bear witness that Jesus was the Son of God but instead tempted Him to prove that He was the Son of God.

Again, Bitterlily, I don't see any of these verses contradicting my belief that man's spirit is Satan - the spirit that caters to the flesh. I believe that spirit is a word that can refer to the overall combined being or attributes of being. For example, here is a list of some of the attributes of the Holy Spirit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So those are also spirits. The spirit of love, spirit of joy, spirit of peace. So the Holy Spirit is the exhibition of all these fruits. Those fruits are spirits also. Likewise the same when we read of demons or devils. I believe we all have several demons or devils that must be "cast out".

Now notice the works of the flesh:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Many of those are spiritual references and are attributed to the flesh. It doesn't say and these are the works of Satan but instead says they are of the flesh. We are the flesh. Those are very revealing verses.

But let's look even further:

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Here we have God's Word attributing evil things with the old MAN and his deeds.

See Bitterlily, I believe when you see the references to Demons or Satan your seeing references to those things that are of fleshy man who was made of the earth.

Again, I'm still studying all this but the more I read the more I'm becoming convinced of it much like when I studied universalism at first there were so many verses that seemed to refute universalism but once real inspection was made I found universalism to be the more legit doctrine.

Paul

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:32 am Post subject:

trettep wrote:

See Bitterlily, I believe when you see the references to Demons or Satan your seeing references to those things that are of fleshy man who was made of the earth.

Again, I'm still studying all this but the more I read the more I'm becoming convinced of it much like when I studied universalism at first there were so many verses that seemed to refute universalism but once real inspection was made I found universalism to be the more legit doctrine.

Paul

Dear Paul,

Please know that I understand and respect your need need to thoroughly study this subject and I hope I am not giving you the impression that I discourage it. Believe me when I say that with each reply you give me I am driven to reexamine it again myself. Always being open to the possiblity that I may have missed something even though this particular subject is one that I have examined many times. You might be surprised to know that it was only a year ago that I wrote this following statement in a personal writing:

Quote:

*Strong’s Bible dictionary defines devil as a traducer – I am convinced that the Traducer (or devil) is a voice in our minds. The dictionary describes a traducer as one who leads as a spectacle to humiliate or disgrace you making malicious and false statements.

But there were a few verses from Scripture that eventually caused my belief to swing back to the original theory that Satan is a Spirit separate to Man's Spirit. For example, the deaf and dumb spirit that Jesus cast out of a young boy:

And he asked the scribes, What do you debate with them? And one of the multitude answered and said, Teacher, I have brought unto you my son, who has a dumb spirit; And wherever he takes him, he throws him down: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and wastes away: and I spoke to your disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. He answered him, and said, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you? bring him unto me. And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, immediately the spirit convulsed him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. And he asked his father, How long ago is it since this came unto him? And he said, Since childhood. And often it has cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if you can do anything, have compassion on us, and help us. Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. And immediately the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, You dumb and deaf spirit, I charge you, come out of him, and enter no more into him. And the spirit cried, and convulsed him terribly, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; so that many said, He is dead. But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. Mark 9:16-29

If this deaf and dumb spirit is one of the works of the flesh then which work is it? The child, parents and Jesus' disciples were powerless to cast out this Spirit so how can this be one of the deeds of the Old man that we are to put off when only the compassion of Jesus could do it for this boy?

I ask these questions sincerely brother! This is one of the biggest hurdles I stare at when considering the possibility of Satan and Unclean Spirits being the Spirit of Man. And I have not yet been able to climb over it or remove it from my path. Are you able brother or is it a landmark that can't be moved?

Sincerely with Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2

trettep
Lion

Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject:

bitterlily wrote:

trettep wrote:

Quote:

Bitterlily, I can't tell you what that encounter with the dumb spirit in the man's son meant but I have to find Spiritual value in it. I know that it doesn't appear to be contrary but I must be careful. For example, at a place in scripture Jesus tells Peter to take with them a sword and Peter says he has two and Jesus replies "its enough". Now many have come back to me and said see this supports that we should carry swords. But yet we read later that Peter was rebuked for even using one. So this is what I must avoid Bitterlily. I must simply say I do not yet know the meaning of this account but I know whatever it is it will be a Spiritual message.

Lots to study in regards to it. For example, God is the one that makes the deaf and dumb:

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

The account is not simply recorded to show us God's power in miracles but I'm sure it has significant spiritual meaning. For example, who does the dumb son represent? Who does the father of the son represent. And are the fire and the water that are being used to destroy him have a place spiritually? For example, we know that the earth was destroyed by water and then is to be destroyed by fire. So I don't know all the significance of it but I know that is I take it as is without the Spiritual message then Jesus becomes a stumblingblock to me.

Paul

JimD
Bear Cub

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 636

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Spirit of satan

When God gives us the freedom to choose good or evil and we choose evil (unbelief), the spirit of satan comes alive in us. When we recognize this and turn back to God in faith with a steadfast heart, He forgives us. Because of this, the spirit of Satan is crushed, as in the womans seed (Jesus Gen. 3:15) will crush satans head, and we can live eternally with God. The spirit of satan is actually a spirit that is brought to life in us by choosing to disobey (not believe) God. By (crush) is ment the power of unbelief is dead to us, because we believe and trust in God, who is in Jesus who is in us, Jn.14:. Satan may be nothing more than a spirit of unbelief in us. That is why it is so important to recognize that God (Jesus) died for all our sins, past, present, future, so believe, believe, believe! Satan is the accuser, and who is the greatest accuser we know? Our very own conscience, and if we believe our conscience and doubt God, sin will eat us alive. As in God told Cain, sin is crouching at your door, and desires to have you, but you must master it, (by believing that God has mastered it for you) by faith in Him.

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:32 am Post subject:

Hi Paul, (and JimD)

trettep wrote:

I must admit I've never looked at this account metaphorically before because it was one that I literally lived out from the first verse to the last, although it's fulfillment was separated by years. So when this subject is being addressed I am usually comparing it to my own experience as well as the Biblical accounts. Maybe there in lies my problem? Confused or disgusted

Maybe not? Confused or disgusted

But I am open to exploring all possibilities. One thing I will say is that as terrifying as the experiences were at the time, the eventual deliverance from them became the greatest source of my blessing because it told me that Jesus still performs the same miracles today. The one thing I still seek to understand is what prevents these miracles from occurring more often, not for the sake of the miracles themselves but for the people that would be helped by them.

The thing that sticks out to me most about this account of the deaf and dumb spirit is the fact that neither the son nor his father seemed to be lacking faith in Jesus. Although his father did say, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" I am not completely convinced that he had any unbelief but that he was merely saying "If I lack faith, please help me!"

The same account in Matthew seems to support this with the father saying to Jesus:

And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not cure him. Mat 17:16

The father obviously had enough faith to bring his son to Jesus' disciples. The only ones Jesus specifically charges with unbelief in this account are His own disciples:

Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say unto this mountain, Remove from here to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. But this kind goes not out but by prayer and fasting. Matthew 17:19-21

Look at this account that shows that being vexed with a demon had nothing to do with lacking in faith:

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same regions, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, you son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a demon. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she cries after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not right to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs. And she said, True, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is your faith: be it unto you even as you will. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. Matthew 15:22-28

Note that this Canaanite woman knew the Mercy and Lovingkindness of the Lord better than His own disciples who asked the Lord to send her away. I have often wondered whether His test was really for His disciples and not this woman, knowing already that her faith was so great she would pass with flying colours. I also can't help but think that this account still very much applies to us. Will we esteem people we regard as unbelieving (like the disciples did the Canaanite woman) to be suffering because of their lack of faith? Or will we confess that it is we that lack faith to heal and loose these oppressed people? I personally prefer to confess that I am lacking the faith to heal, rather than accuse the oppressed of lacking the faith or belief to receive it.

Jesus placed the task of casting out demons squarely at the feet of His disciples and there is no indication to me in Scripture to suggest that the person demon-oppressed had to meet a prerequisite:

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18

And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (draws near). Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons: freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:7-8

Note that Jesus sent His disciples out in twos:

And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth two by two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; Mark 6:7

Note also that when Jesus speaks of binding and loosing He refers to two or three:

Verily I say unto you, whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth concerning anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:18-20

Note that the words bound and loose are the same words used by Jesus in this next verse:

And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? Luke 13:16

I would like to share a story with you. In my local township there is large woman (both in height and size) who often sits outside the post office and roams the streets with no obvious destination. The first time I noticed her was as I was entering the Post Office. She appeared to be quite distraught as she argued and yelled at someone calling them profane names, yet there was no other person in her vicinity. I thought nothing of it other than that she must have had an arguement with somebody and was still quite upset about it. She seemed quite angry so I felt it was best not to approach her although I wanted to.

I don't visit the township often (may be once a month if that) but on each occassion my attention would be drawn to her when I would hear her from down the street crying and yelling the same profanities as my first encounter with her. The last time it happened was about a month ago, I was standing at the ATM when I heard her crying and yelling out profanities as if to be arguing with someone. I turned and looked across the road to see her walking down the street. I noticed an elderly man walking in front of her get quite a fright as he looked around to see who she was yelling at only to find that there was no one between him and her. You could tell he thought she was going attack him because his pace suddenly picked up. I looked around the streets as I saw many people just like me, standing there staring at her and I felt sorry for her. We were all obviously too scared to approach her. I felt particularly bad that day as I thought to myself, "Why do I as a Christian hesistate to help this woman?" I confessed that moment and said, "Sorry Lord, I'm scared she'll flog me. I must be lacking in faith!" I haven't been able to forget about her ever since. I believe she can be helped and even healed but I struggle with doubt that the Lord would use me to do it.

After noticing the verses above about the Lord sending his disciples out in twos I have wondered whether this is what I am lacking. Someone to agree with me as this verse says:

Verily I say unto you, whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth concerning anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:18-20

I would like to ask you Paul if you would agree with me to ask our Lord Jesus for this woman's healing? I won't be offended if you decline, I just thought I should at least ask. All I know is that I haven't been able to get this woman out of my mind and heart. Please pray on it.

Lots of Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38

As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2