 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | This is but another example of why the new covenant in Jer 31 has not come about. Paul would not have needed to struggle with this had King Messiah actually come, because
==============================
Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
============================== |
I'm so glad you have mentioned this verse towshab because you are right to say that this would have been fulfilled had King Messiah actually come. But it isn't that this verse wasn't fulfilled because it was. The problem Paul and the other Apostles had was getting Christians to believe that God would teach them. Instead they looked to Paul and the other Apostles to teach them:
Now this I say, that every one of you says, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in my own name. 1 Corinthians 1:12-15
How different was the attitude of these Christians from many Christians in our day. Some say, "I am a Baptist; I am an Anglican; I am a Pentecostal. If Paul was on earth today he would probably say the same thing to us:
"Is Christ divided? Was the Anglican, Baptist or Pentecostal Church crucified for you?"
Also, you seem to be forgetting that Paul also quoted Jeremiah 31 in Hebrews:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews 8:10-12
I'll tell you something towshab, despite the fact that I do alot of writing to you I don't believe I can personally teach you a single thing. All I can do is hope that your heart is constantly seeking to be taught by God and if it is then He will bring all things to light. Whether He uses anything I say to do it is purely His perogative but woe is me if I should take any credit for that. It's like Paul said:
So then neither is he that plants anything, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase. 1 Corinthians 3:7
As long as your heart is firmly fixed on knowing YHVH and being taught by Him then you can't go wrong. Many think that one must first know the Son before they can be taught by the Father but this is contrary to what Jesus said:
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me. John 6:45
As long as you are seeking God to teach you and not Jews or Christians then you can't go wrong. Remember, He looks on the heart and He delights to see it firmly fixed on Him? We can draw much hope, faith and encouragement from the example of Paul seeing that he consented to the stoning of Stephen yet he was shown mercy because God knew where his heart was. |
No, I knew that Hebrew quoted Jeremiah. Yet even so, quoting it does not make it so. Do all people know G-d? No, then the new covenant has not come. Plain and simple.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | | Since Paul was definitely needed to teach these Gentiles, it is very obvious that the new covenant has not come. Even today, the majority of the world does not know G-d, so the new covenant is still to come. |
This is just a myth that Paul taught anyone anything, like the verse I quoted said:
So then neither is he that plants anything, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase. 1 Corinthians 3:7 |
Then if he did not teach, what did he do? That verse says nothing of teaching. And you still did not address the fact that many people in the world, even among the Jews, do not know G-d. That is part of the new covenant, correct?
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | | Quote: | | 37:24 gives you a clue about the true Messiah: he is typically called by the name 'David'... |
Your not suggesting that the Messiah's name will be David are you? When you say "typically called" are you saying by Scripture or Tradition?
| towshab wrote: | | Not literally, no. What this means is that the King Messiah will be in the line of David. It was quite evident in Tanakh that people were called by the name of their fathers. Jacob became Israel, and you know the rest there. But David's line is the one that King Messiah will come from, and it will be through paternal bloodline through Solomon. |
|
Where does it say that it will be through paternal bloodline? If you were referring to Heavenly paternity I might buy it. |
Look in 21 Chr 2, and you will see how lineage passes. Tribal lineage is through the male.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | As you can see, this had to do with property rights, not right to the throne of David. G-d said that the line of kings would be from David's seed, and this means direct paternal descent. |
Is the throne of David not Property, is it not part of his inheritance given to Him by God? Also note, that once David inherited it he had no power to give it to whom he chose but the Lord chose whom would inherit it. Did you remember the verse I quoted earlier?
Also take note that in the Lord's eyes both Israel and Judah were daughters and yet Judah inherited the Throne of David:
The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: And they committed harlotries in Egypt; they committed harlotries in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they handled the breasts of their virginity. And the names of them were Oholah the elder, and Oholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bore sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem Oholibah. Ezekiel 23:1-4 |
Again, the throne is not property. It is a right given only through David’s physical line.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | | 1 Chronicles 2 shows that bloodline and tribe is established through the male |
Bloodline yes but not inheritance. |
No, again the throne of David is not property. Besides, if this were even applicable, and Luke’s genealogy was through Mary, the lineage did not pass through Solomon thereby nullifying the right even through Mary.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | Also
==============================
2Sa 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
============================== |
Look at this towshab!  I just found it now! I did a concordance search on the words translated as "who shall come from your body" (H4578) and found that it is the same word in this verse:
I delight to do your will, O my God: yea, your law is within my heartH4578. Psalms 40:8
What do you think towshab? Has this hit home like a bolt of lightning? Coz it did me!  |
Uh, not even a spark. What does this have to do with offspring, seed , ‘zerah’? You bypass that to move beyond and in doing so leap to conclusions. The key is that the kings of Judah will always be of the paternal Davidic line.
| Quote: | If not, take note that David knew the Hebrew word for heart because he used it a few verses later:
I have not hid your righteousness within my heartH3820; I have declared your faithfulness and your salvation: I have not concealed your lovingkindness and your truth from the great congregation. Psalms 40:10
| Quote: | We know that the one to follow and sit on the throne was Solomon, and here G-d is saying that Solomon's throne would be established forever. The word for 'offspring' is 'zera' which means 'seed' and always speaks of the literal offspring of the person.
Another passage
==============================
Psa 89:34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.
Psa 89:35 Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David.
Psa 89:36 His offspring ['seed', 'zera'] shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me.
============================== |
Are you sure about that towshab?:
And did not he make them one? Yet had he the remnant of the spirit. And why one? That he might seek a godly offspring(Zera). Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. Malachi 2:15
If none are righteous, no not one, how can this be speaking about literal offspring? This verse is talking about the Lord as Husband being one flesh with His wife, the remnant of His Spirit as David was. |
You are taking a symbolic verse and trying to apply it to a much more literal one. Does G-d have a physical body? Then He does not have physical offspring. Yet David did have a physical body, thus he would have physical offspring. Do not confuse the two.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | | Ah, but you are trying to project what is planned presently versus what may happen. Just because this is what the Jews presently desire, this does not mean that things might not change. |
So are you agreeing with me regarding the location of the 3rd Temple? |
Not agreeing nor disagreeing, just saying that speculation does no good at this point.
| Quote: | | Quote: | In any case, I would not be so concerned over the actual location since it has yet to take place.
Beyond that, I think you may be getting too technical with location because that has little to do with it. As you may recall, David had planned to build a temple but was not allowed and it was built by Solomon instead. So technically, the 'tabernacle of David' is the temple as Solomon is the son of David, and the King Messiah will sit upon the throne of David. |
That sounds awfully convenient especially since we Christians are accused by Jews of taking Scripture out of context to fit our own preconceived views. As for getting too technical, I was only applying the same weight with which we Christians are weighed in the Jewish balance. The explanation you gave sounds like unjust weights to me. |
Yet it is all speculation at this point so there really is little sense in discussing it seriously.
| Quote: | Hey towshab, I hope you have a Joy-filled Christ Day today and everyday. And in case this worries you to hear me say this, please know that I know Jesus was not born on the 25th December but I esteem everyday in Christ a Joy-filled Christ Day as it is written:
One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regards the day, regards it unto the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. He that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that eats not, to the Lord he eats not, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. Romans 14:5-9
And if we were to get really technical, I finished writing this on the 24th Dec at 10:55pm, Australian time.
With Love and Hugs
Bitterlily |
My "Christ-day" was like any other. I have joy regardless of the day.
_________________
'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5161
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The reason this this One-on-One is so slow is because the posts are far to long & your doing to much re- quoting that first page is so long it takes a long time to load. You would have a much more interesting One-on-One if you shorten them. If you do, you will retain more of what's said!
Just a thought,
Nobby |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nobby wrote: | The reason this this One-on-One is so slow is because the posts are far to long & your doing to much re- quoting that first page is so long it takes a long time to load. You would have a much more interesting One-on-One if you shorten them. If you do, you will retain more of what's said!
Just a thought,
Nobby |
Thanks for the suggestion Nobby!
I'll do my best!
Love Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi towshab,
| towshab wrote: | | Since your last two replies to me took up 19 pages of a MS Word document, I will be cutting the responses up for manageability. |
Sorry bout that! I'll do my very best to keep it brief.
I'm going to break my posts down a bit more, I just hope this doesn't make it more difficult to follow.
| Quote: | | Just be sure that the JPS you have is newer. The JPS you will find in most places is really just a work based on the KJV! The original JPS was done because more and more English-speaking Jews wanted an English translation of Tanakh. Most observant Jews know Hebrew! |
Could you give me a link to where I could find the JPS you are referring to?
| Quote: | | An angel of YHVH represents YHVH and will often be His mouthpiece. G-d does not have a form like man or even angels therefore He sends His angels to represent Him. Therefore to call the angel YHVH merely shows the authority the angel was given. Unless you think YHVH is an angel? |
No I don't believe that YHWH is an Angel. I do however believe that YHWH can materialize into whatever form He chooses including an Angel and a Man. And before you bypass what I have said here I ask that you first explain why there were times when it says the Angel of YHWH appeared to a few people who responded in a way that one would only respond to YHWH. For example:
And the LORD appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and BOWED HIMSELF H7812 toward the ground, Genesis 18:1-2
H7812 = SHACHAH and is the same word translated WORSHIP in this verse:
For you shall WORSHIP H7812 no other god (EL): for the LORD (YHVH), whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (EL): Exodus 34:14
| Quote: | | The angel of YHVH represents YHVH to His people. So an angel of YHVH is not YHVH Himself, merely a spokesperson or even a mouthpiece! Therefore the people belong to YHVH. |
Based on your presentation of Angels representing YHWH, Abraham was WORSHIPPING an Angel and not YHWH? How do you reconcile this?
I think here is a good place to end this post.
Kind Regards
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Still, Judaism over all is not concerned as much with the messianic era as it is focusing on the “here and now”. Judasim, to me, is a much more practical religion that Christianity because I think that serious Christians focus too much on heaven and not enough on bettering themselves for the sake of their fellow man. I get this from over 15 years in Christianity. |
Was that 15 years in a Christian Church or 15 years in Biblical Christianity? I don't ask this to offend you but because I have noticed there is a difference between what most Christian Churches teach and what Biblical Christianity teaches. And IMHO, Biblical Christianity is very practical, placing the betterment of ourselves for the sake of our fellow man Second on the priority list. The First priority being to Love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and the Second priority being to Love our Neighbour as ourselves. I am reminded daily that I can not keep the First priority while I neglect the Second otherwise I am just deceiving myself. This may be what alot of Christian Churches teach but it is not what Biblical Christianity teaches. This is why I would be interested to know whether your experience with Christianity was Church based or Bible based.
My Mum stopped going to Christian Churches over 10 years ago and it is only in recent months that she has started seeing the difference between Church Christianity and Biblical Christianity. I started my journey toward being a Biblical Christian 8 years ago and you should have seen the horror in my mum's face when I would interpret Scripture in a way that was contrary to her Church experience. But due to us always having a close relationship and good communication we continued to discuss our different views over the years and more often than not she has conceded that what she was taught at Church and what the Bible teaches are 2 different things.
I'll end this here and look forward to your reply.
Sincerely
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi towshab,
| Quote: | Ah, but even if you play theological “sleight-of-hand” tricks such as this, you missed the other part of that verse:
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Its says the city will be destroyed at the same time. Did this happen when Jesus died? No. Was there a war when Jesus died? No. All of this took place in 70 CE. |
What do you mean by "playing theological “sleight-of-hand” tricks"?  Everything I write is with sincerity, always keeping in mind the First and Second priority. I can't help but think that you are applying Church interpretation of Scripture to me when in many things I don't agree with their interpretation. For example, I am aware that alot of Christian Tele-Evangelists (like Hal Lindsey) teach that all of this is to be understood literally where as I don't. Whether I am wrong or right, I take the clues from both the NT and OT as to how Scripture is to be understood. The NT tells me that there is a Heavenly Jerusalem and so I apply the destruction of the City and Sanctuary to it not to Earthly Jerusalem which is described in the NT as Hagar the Bondwoman, and Spiritually called Egypt and Sodom. As for the war we are told:
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places. Therefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Ephesians 6:11-13
If you are trying to squeeze me into the Church Christianity mindset you might find yourself getting frustrated when I don't seem to fit. I have spent 8 years trusting that the Lord will teach me all things as He promised He would under the New Covenant. Yes, I heard plenty of stories in my early days about what this verse and that verse meant but instead of taking it on just because I heard some other Christian say it I opted to trust the Lord would teach me the Truth of all things Himself. Some Church doctrines have been confirmed while many others have been exposed as false and you know what the NT says about a little bit of leaven:
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Galatians 5:9
We are also told:
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8
Don't you think it is interesting that you never hear Christian Churches talk about keeping the Feast of Unleavened bread that followed immediately after the Passover. Instead they overlook this feast and only acknowledge the Feast of Pentecost which is a Leavened work (signified by the 2 Leavened Loaves waved before YHWH Lev 23:17).
| Quote: | | Veiled? Surely you are not getting in the realm of speculation and apologetics, but I will read on. |
What is apologetics and why do you call my comments getting into the realm of speculation? If being an avid Student of Scripture is the realm of speculation and apologetics than I suppose I am. I could be wrong but this sounds like Church catch-phrases to me!
| towshab wrote: | | Bitterlily wrote: | As you probably know, most Christians believe that the physical Feasts were a Shadow of good things to come:
Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 |
Can you show me where G-d says any of these things will pass in Tanakh? |
That's just my point towshab, I don't believe Scripture says that these things will pass away. What I believe this verse is saying is don't let any man judge you on how you should keep it. For example, Jesus is said to be the true fulfillment of the Shadow Passover Feast. No doubt Jews for Jesus back in the day were judged by fellow Jews for not keeping the Feast according to the OT Shadow but that doesn't mean that these Jews for Jesus weren't keeping the Feast of Passover. In fact they probably felt they were keeping it more perfectly than those who kept it according to the OT Pattern. The same goes for the other Feasts and Holy Days. Just because Jews for Jesus weren't keeping the OT Shadow Feasts does not mean that they were not keeping them. There is much in Scripture to suggest that the Feasts and Holy Days are very relevant to Biblical Christianity and I am committed to learning as much about them as I possibly can. As I understand it, before one can celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread they have to first search their dwellings for any hidden leaven and get it out of their houses. This is how I would summarize these past 8 years learning about Biblical Christianity and I still don't think my search is over yet so I will keep on looking.
So how are you finding the break up of my posts towshab? It sure is easier to write this way, allowing me to have breaks while having a sense of completion. Hope you find them easier to work with. Sorry that this one was a bit long.
With Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| towshab wrote: | | Quote: | | Jesus was the Passover Lamb. |
Only according to the Gospel of John. The synoptics never called him a lamb, and had him dying on the day of Passover while John had him dying on the eve of Passover. |
What are the Synoptics? Can you please provide the verses before I respond to this comment?
| Quote: | | In any case, if Jesus was to be the Paschal Lamb he was not “prepared” as G-d commanded. He was not cooked and not eaten. That is gross anyways but that IS the way of the Pesach. |
Actually I have done some investigating into the Preparation of the Passover Meal and found that Jesus was prepared perfectly according to God's command. Remember, that Jesus was not a literal Lamb but a Spiritual Lamb so the cooking and eating of Him is also Spiritual. For example, the Paschal Lamb was to be roasted with Fire. Jesus was roasted with the Fire of the Holy Spirit. As for eating Him, through His own words Jesus showed that He was to be understood as more than just the Passover Lamb. For example, He was also the true Manna from Heaven, and the Living Water of Tabernacles:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world. John 6:32-33
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spoke he of the Spirit, whom they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:37-39
| Quote: | | Also, if Jesus is the Paschal Lamb then his death is not a sacrifice but a form of remembrance for what G-d did to deliver Israel. The Paschal Lamb is not a sin offering. |
The Paschal Lamb is a Sacrifice:
That you shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshiped. Exodus 12:27
Jesus said He came to fulfill the whole Law not just the Law of Passover. There was also the day of Atonement which was a sin offering and Jesus fulfilled this as well. All of the OT Feasts and Holy Days are alluded to in the NT as fulfilled by Jesus but because of Church Christianity's neglect of the OT their fulfillments are not widely understood. But for some Christians the tides are certainly changing.
This will probably be a discussion that will find it's own legs so I will stop here for now.
Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Where do you get the idea that Shavuot is the anniversary of the giving of Torah? There is no support for this in Tanakh. This is a rabbinical idea and not found in written Torah. However it is a day where Jews thank G-d for the Torah. |
You are right in that you will not find a verse stating that the Torah was given on Shavuot but if you use the available verses to calculate the days from which the Israelites left Egypt to the giving of the Law it works out to be on the day of Pentecost. So it is possible that this Rabbinical idea came from this. I have a copy of a book that is claimed to be the book of Jasher mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and it states:
And in the third month from the children of Israel's departure from Egypt, on the sixth day thereof, the Lord gave to Israel the ten commandments on Mount Sinai. Jasher 82:6
The 6th of the 3rd month is known as the 6th of Sivan which the Jews celebrate as the Day of Pentecost.
| Quote: | | In fact, to be fair, most of Christendom has shed off Torah. Therefore, while the first Pentecost may have been honorable to G-d in some way it went downhill after that. |
To be fair to who? Did the shedding off of Torah by most of the Israelites in the OT make the Torah of no significance? Should not the value of Torah to Christianity be measured by what the NT says regarding it and not what most of Christendom do?
| Quote: | | This has no foundation in Tanakh. The “Day of Shouting” is about shouting to G-d in prayer. No reason is given in Tanakh for this holiday. It is a day of rest and memorial so you apply Thess 4:15-16 to this Jewish holiday has zero basis. |
What I am merely pointing out is that the OT Feasts were not shedded by Biblical Christianity as you claim but their fulfillments were viewed from a spiritual perspective rather than the OT Shadow.
| Quote: | | Wait, you said earlier that Jesus was the Paschal lamb, right? The Paschal lamb was not an atonement sacrifice, therefore Heb 9:28 is in error or John is in error. Both cannot be correct. Also, Jesus was not properly prepared for either, a sacrifice OR the Paschal lamb. |
As I pointed out earlier, Jesus came to fulfill the whole Law which included the atonement sacrifice and not just the Passover Lamb. If you struggle to see how Jesus can be both than you will also probably struggle with the NT idea that He was also the High Priest that offered Himself, not forgetting that He was also the Temple, the head cornerstone and the foundation.
| Quote: | | During Sukkot, the world is judged for water. Are you saying Jesus’ play on words during the festival means that he is King Messiah? This is a stretch to say he is the ‘fulfillment’ of Sukkot. |
Jesus said that the True Water of Sukkot was the Living Water of the Spirit that would spring up in anyone who believed in Him according to the Scriptures (John 7:37-39)
| Quote: | | And to tie in joy that is found during Sukkot to the joy you are supposed to receive from the spirit again is quite a bit of eisegesis, which means reading into scripture a certain theology rather than reading theology out of scripture. |
Are you referring to me or the NT writers as reading into Scripture a certain theology. As far as I'm concerned, I'm taking all Scripture OT and NT into consideration when reading these verses about Sukkot. Both the OT and NT tells us that their is Joy to be found in the Presence of God:
You will show me the path of life: in your presence is fullness of joy; at your right hand there are pleasures forevermore. Psalms 16:11
And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Spirit. Acts 13:52
I better end this here and start a new post.
Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Again, to say this is Jesus is a stretch. How was Jesus like Moses? I know you get this from the GT reading it into Jesus’ life, but there really is little support in the GT for Jesus and Moses being similar.
First of all, when did Jesus speak to G-d face to face? You may say in heaven but Moses did it while amongst his people. So he was not like Moses in that respect. |
In heaven? Where did Jesus say Heaven was?
And when he was demanded by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with outward observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20-21
There are many verses that show that Jesus was speaking face to face with the Father the whole time He was on earth. Here are just a few:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatsoever things he does, these also does the Son likewise. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel. John 5:19-20
Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 14:10-11
| Quote: | | Also, Moses was given Torah by G-d, and the Ten Commandments on stone tablets. Jesus was asked by ‘satan’ to turn stone into bread. So he was not like Moses in that respect. |
Jesus was the walking, talking Torah. He embodied the Torah.
| Quote: | | Moses was also called to deliver Israel from the Egyptians, and was accepted by the people. Jesus was not accepted and he did not deliver a single person from Roman bondage. So he was not like Moses in that respect. |
According to Revelations 11:18 physical Jerusalem was Spiritual Egypt so the deliverance was not from Roman but Egyptian bondage. Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt parallels Jesus leading the Remnant Israel out of Spiritual Egypt.
| Quote: | | In any case, Deu 18:17-19 is merely about G-d saying He will supply prophets after Moses who will bring G-d’s Word to the people. We find them throughout Tanakh: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Samuel, Nathan, etc. It is not speaking of a singular prophet. Read Deu 18:14 and on for the real context of this passage. |
I read more than just the real context of that passage but others as well when I wrote to you about it towshab and it clearly shows a distinction between the Prophets you listed above and the Prophet Moses:
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not thus, who is faithful in all my house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even clearly, and not in dark sayings; and the form of the LORD shall he behold: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? Numbers 12:6-8
You must take this difference between Moses and the other Prophets into consideration when reading the verses in Deuteronomy.
| Quote: | | Messianic Jews are an odd lot. On one hand, they are evangelical, on the other, they practice rabbinical observances that do not come from the written Torah but from the oral! That makes no sense because when it really gets down to it, Jesus was likely against rabbinical practices! |
Like all things towshab, I think the rabbinical observances should first be examined in the light of Scripture before they are discarded. I have found that some Rabbinic observances have helped me to better understand some of Jesus words because He often used them in His parables.
| Quote: | | Actually, don’t get me started on messianics. They are the worst kind of Christian IMO. They are Christians disguised as Jews when the two do not belong together. Not evangelical Christianity in any case yet that is exactly what messianics are. They are nothing like the first Jewish Christians. |
| Quote: | | Also, if you’d research these organizations without rose colored glasses you’d find out that many of them are filled with people who were never Jews in the first place. |
I am aware that their are Gentile Christians that give the impression that they are Jewish when they are not which is why I specifically look for testimonies of Jews who turned to Jesus. I am always interested to know what caused them to convert when so many of their brethren don't. But my interest in this is not limited to Jews but includes Muslims, Athiest and all soughts. And more often than not their conversions were by divine and not man intervention. Has often made me wonder why the Lord would tell people to preach the Gospel when often times He doesn't actually use them to reach people.
Sincerely
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | He added a stipulation into Torah about adultery. Adultery is the act, not the heart. Therefore, while Jesus got to the core cause, desire does not always leave to the actual act. Desire unchecked is a bad thing but to say that desiring another is adultery is not right.
I know what he was saying and I do agree with it starting out as a heart matter resulting in eventual action, but he went against Torah by adding to it. Now only G-d knows our heart but adultery was a stonable offense in Torah so who would go around stoning people for a man glancing too long on a woman? |
You say that Jesus went against Torah by adding to it yet you fail to see that the OT Prophets were constantly adding to the Torah. Or should I say, elaborating on the true meaning of Torah like Jesus did. For example, Hosea made Adultery into that of Israel against Her Husband YHWH. Yet Israel didn't physically sleep with YHWH and neither did they commit physical Adultery against YHWH. This clearly shows that the Act of Adultery is in the Heart not the Action and is committed against God not Man. Actually, let me correct myself. There is physical adultery committed against our fellowman which violates the Second Commandment and there is Spiritual adultery that we commit against God violating the First Commandment.
| Quote: | | Actually, I think it is wrong of any Christian to keep Torah. I do not as a Righteous Gentile (don’t get hung up on the ‘righteous’ part, it is just a title) because I know that Torah was given to the Jews. Unless I convert to Judaism, I think it is an insult to take Torah and say I keep it as a Jew should. |
How can you say that? Christianity is built on the Torah. Have you forgotten what Jesus said:
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40
Think about the OT for a minute. What were the 2 great crimes that the Israelites were charged by God with. Breaking the First and Second Commandment. They turned away from God and they were cruel to their neighbour. All the Prophets of the OT charged the Israelites with the breaking of one or both of these 2 commandments. Adultery against God is also a violation of the First Commandment. Theft, murder and lying, and coveting a man's goods or wife is a violation of the Second Commandment.
| Quote: | | This is somewhat of a selfish statement IMO. Its like saying Christians have cornered the market on righteousness when its blood-soaked history proves otherwise. |
What is your standard towshab, the Scriptures or those who claim to live by the Scriptures. You are obviously referring to Church Christianity and not Biblical Christianity when you talk about a blood soaked history. What makes a Christian a Christian? Is it not someone who lives by the principles of Biblical Christianity? There is absolutely nothing in the NT that supports the blood-soaked actions of the Church. The NT says that true Christians will be the persecuted not the persecutors. So then what should be the conclusion one comes to when comparing Biblical Christianity with Church Christianity? Church Christianity claims to be Biblical Christianity BUT IT IS NOT! Remember the First 2 commandments. The breaking of one more often than not leads to the breaking of the other. People forsake God and then they forsake their fellowman. This was the pattern in the OT. They turned away from God and they oppressed their fellowman. But God would preserve a remnant who were faithful to Him (often those being oppressed) and He would call them out, separating them from their oppressors. Then over time as the remnant grew into a multitude the majority would turn away from God again and the cycle would repeat. It is no different with Christianity and the NT even testified that this would happen to it as well when it talked about Wolves in Sheeps clothing. The thing I find hard to believe is that Church Christianity think the great falling away from the faith only started in recent times when Christians started leaving the Churches in droves. How crazy is that? It's a joke! Biblical Christianity tells me that Church Christianity fell away from the faith a long long time ago. I would even go so far as to say it was starting to happen in the days of the Apostles if not soon after.
Sorry towshab, I got a little carried away. 
I have made a couple of Christian friends over the years and their Church Theology has been enough to encourage me to stay away. This forum is the closest thing to Church I have gotten and I am thankful that they allow all members to share what is on our hearts and minds.
Anyway, I'm signing off again.
I feel a little silly writing all these mini posts to you one after the other but if your happy with it I am happy to continue doing it.
With Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2
Last edited by bitterlily on Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| towshab wrote: | | By this I mean that the sacrifice of a human to atone for other human’s sins is totally foreign to Tanakh. In fact you will find many passages where it is equated with pagan gods. G-d never once in all of Tanakh accepted nor called for a human sacrifice. Even the passage about Isaac was to show that YHVH was different from the pagan religions who sacrificed humans. |
Actually, you are wrong about this towshab. Isaiah does! I encourage you to read the whole of chapter 53 from a translation of your choosing.
| Quote: | | Most modern scholars do not believe 2 Peter was written by him or were his words. |
Most modern Scholars? So? What is their belief based on?
| Quote: | | Paul and Peter were not best friends and would have never likely called Paul his beloved brother. |
If you are basing this on their confrontation mentioned in Galations then forgive me for thinking this is a really weak arguement. Paul wasn't telling Peter anything he didn't already know and I also think Peter was humble enough to accept his error. I mean you'd have to be humble to be able to pick yourself up from some of the stumbles Peter made in his early days.
| Quote: | | In any case, even if it was Peter, he admitted that Paul’s writings were odd. |
What's that word you used? Eisegesis?
Peter said:
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16
It might be best if you tell me why modern scholars don't believe that Peter wrote this Epistle so I can inspect the evidence. Just think about it for a moment, there are many modern experts who would tell us that the Torah is not God's but Man's Law. Would you expect me to take their opinion seriously without providing evidence. I personally have witnessed enough evidence to believe all of the OT and the NT and even others that have been left out of the Bible. Remember, I am willing to investigate anything before making any conclusions about it.
Ahhhh!!!!
IT'S 3:30AM, I better go to bed.
Look forward to hearing from you soon.
Good Night
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello again Paul,
Hope I'm not making you feel badgered but I was working on a post for another thread when I thought of something else that seemed to differentiate between the Spirit of Man and the Spirit of Satan and that is the Law against Adultery.
We are told in Hosea that the MOTHER of Israel committed Adultery against her Husband Yehovah so He put her away:
The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto you a wife of harlotry and children of harlotry: for the land has committed great harlotry, departing from the LORD. Hosea 1:2
Say you unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah. Plead with your MOTHER, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her harlotry out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts; Lest I strip her naked, and make her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and make her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst. And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they are the children of harlotry. For their mother has played the harlot: she that conceived them has done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink. Therefore, behold, I will hedge up your way with thorns, and make a wall, so that she shall not find her paths. And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now. For she did not know that I gave her grain, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal. Hosea 2:1-8
This used to always confuse me as to why the Lord made a distinction between the Mother and the Children of Israel. I did wonder whether the Mother was a reference to the Land just like when Paul called Earthly Jerusalem Hagar the bondwoman and Heavenly Jerusalem the Free Woman and Mother of us all. But this didn't seem to fit because of what Yehovah said regarding the Mother of Israel in these next series of verses in Hosea:
And I will punish her for the days of Baalim, when she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgot me, says the LORD. Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her her vineyards from there, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, says the LORD, that you shall call me Ishi (Husband); and shall call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will abolish the bow and the sword and the battle from the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth you unto me forever; yea, I will betroth you unto me in righteousness, and in justice, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth you unto me in faithfulness: and you shall know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will answer, says the LORD, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth; And the earth shall answer with grain, and wine, and oil; and they shall answer Jezreel. And I will sow her for myself in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them who were not my people, you are my people; and they shall say, you are my God. Hosea 2:13-23
The same Mother of Israel that was put away would be betrothed to Yehovah...
So who was the Mother of Israel?
Is it possible that the Mother of Israel is the Spirit of Man?
Pondering...
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bitterlily wrote: |
Could you give me a link to where I could find the JPS you are referring to? |
As far as online English Tanakh, I know of only one at http://www.chabad.org under the "Library" link. It is the Judaica Press Tanakh.
| Quote: | | An angel of YHVH represents YHVH and will often be His mouthpiece. G-d does not have a form like man or even angels therefore He sends His angels to represent Him. Therefore to call the angel YHVH merely shows the authority the angel was given. Unless you think YHVH is an angel? |
No I don't believe that YHWH is an Angel. I do however believe that YHWH can materialize into whatever form He chooses including an Angel and a Man.[/quote]
Well that is certainly a belief that many Christians have due to Jesus. After all, if G-d can be a man, then He certainly can be an angel right?
However, I do not know any Jews who believe the same thing and the original Hebrew scriptures were handed down through them, correct?
| Quote: | And before you bypass what I have said here I ask that you first explain why there were times when it says the Angel of YHWH appeared to a few people who responded in a way that one would only respond to YHWH. For example:
And the LORD appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and BOWED HIMSELF H7812 toward the ground, Genesis 18:1-2
H7812 = SHACHAH and is the same word translated WORSHIP in this verse:
For you shall WORSHIP H7812 no other god (EL): for the LORD (YHVH), whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (EL): Exodus 34:14 |
Didn't John try to worship the angel in Revelation? But what of these verses (from the KJV this time) that use "shachah"?
============================
Gen 23:7 And Abraham stood up, and bowed ("shachah") himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.
Gen 23:12 And Abraham bowed ("shachah") down himself before the people of the land.
Gen 33:3 And he passed over before them, and bowed himself ("shachah") to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to [b]bow down ("shachah") ourselves to thee to the earth?
============================
There are many more examples but I think that is sufficient enough to show that the word "shachah" can simply mean bowing or paying homage to someone over or superior to you.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | The angel of YHVH represents YHVH to His people. So an angel of YHVH is not YHVH Himself, merely a spokesperson or even a mouthpiece! Therefore the people belong to YHVH. |
Based on your presentation of Angels representing YHWH, Abraham was WORSHIPPING an Angel and not YHWH? How do you reconcile this?
I think here is a good place to end this post.
Kind Regards
Bitterlily |
See above for examples of the use of the word "shachah".
_________________
'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bitterlily wrote: | | Quote: | | Still, Judaism over all is not concerned as much with the messianic era as it is focusing on the "here and now". Judaism, to me, is a much more practical religion that Christianity because I think that serious Christians focus too much on heaven and not enough on bettering themselves for the sake of their fellow man. I get this from over 15 years in Christianity. |
Was that 15 years in a Christian Church or 15 years in Biblical Christianity? |
Christian church but after enough exposure to others on the Web as well, I see very little difference. Sure there are a few people out there who seem to be seeking to return to the supposed roots of Jewish Christianity, but they are really stumbling in the dark with a Roman guidebook. The RCC had its hands all over your bible and there really is no telling what was originally the words of Jesus.
| Quote: | | I don't ask this to offend you but because I have noticed there is a difference between what most Christian Churches teach and what Biblical Christianity teaches. |
Seriously, show me any good example of "biblical Christianity". Everyone says they are following "biblical Christ | | |
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
