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mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
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 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Michael,
We are in agreement then of mans inability to justify himself.
So when we look at all false teaching we can see the essence in a simple term like this.
Self is appealed to as the "authority".
In gnosticism it is the "inner" witness which closely tracks the true (the devil is one for running his tracks next to the Lords), but instead of looking to an external focus, they look inwards, to the God within.
Now it seems that this element is subdued in gnostic "christianity" and not overstated, but as soon as we hear the term "dead letter" and other terms that would lead someone to believe that their inner witness is greater than the bible as a source of revelation, we should be alarmed.
The same problem exists in so many false systems.
Any system that encourages someone to look away from Jesus and the Bible which has been given as the check against error and heresy, is ultimately rooted in a looking to self rather than God.
This is why error is so easy to spot once we have the GENUINE Holy Spirit to guide us...
Mark
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| mtimber wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | mtimber wrote: | Common traits and identifying features of a gnostic believer:
1. A superiority complex derived from the idea that "one" is enlightened above those who are less fortunate.
2. Presentation of the idea that scripture is subject to spiritual impressions given to those that "have the truth".
3. Condemnation of the bible and its canonicity.
4. The idea that experience is the filter and emotional feelings are an evidence of the Holy Spirit.
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What source cited these traits as identifying a believer in gnosticism? |
If you perform a search on the text quoted above Zathrus, you will find the webpage.
The online book is entitled Strange Fire.
Very interesting read.
Mark |
Thanks. I searched for a list of those four traits in the book Strange Fire. It didn't come up. Are you sure this list isn't from somewhere else?
I am finding it an interesting read.
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Mark,
What's even more dangerous his how this proclivity in Christianity leads people to rely on humanistic reasoning when formulating doctrine. This very much ties in to the Universalist heresies being perennially promoted on this board. They rely on feel-good reasoning and have in their minds translated the entire Bible to fit their diseased reasoning.
Do they also hear the Holy Spirit? Sure. The Holy Spirit conveys God's desire that all come to repentence and be saved. But then that is warped into an argument that all will be saved.
I've never really seen the tie between this and gnostic reasoning, but I'm now realizing that all heresy is based on the pride of asserting the wisdom of man over the foolishness of God.
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| wilber wrote: | | Yes. I agree. But that was not the basis of your argument in your last post. |
As I had said, the particulars were unimportant and I had not thought it necessary to fight for these (hence the “scattered” nature of my arguments). They were only meant as examples of contradictions which belie the Inerrancy so necessary for people who worship the Book and not the Spirit who authored the inspiration for the revelations about which the Book (or at least most of it) speaks.
| wilber wrote: | | A 'public' school in England actually means a 'private' school rather than a state school. I attended a city state school. |
Yes I know, I was trying to be gracious in smoothing over my gaffe. A rather famous educator in the US has declared that really smart people tend to get educated despite the dysfunction of their educational system.
God's Grace to you,
Yehu
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| mtimber wrote: | | I notice you did not answer the direct question Yehushuan. Are you a gnostic? |
Mark,
I never saw the question. I read your inane dismissal of the contradictions and then decided to stop wasting my time by reading any further. But I must say, this argument:
| mtimber wrote: | But the gnostic ideology that we must accept someones "enlightened" inner guidance over the accepted canon of scripture is not something we should ever consider as it removes the only safety valve we have as christians.
Gods inspired word. |
Has, by far, superseded all your former abuses of logic. Good show, old boy. You really need to get some education on early church history. How else did any of the various texts being circulated amongst the several churches GET accepted as canon, if not for the “enlightened inner guidance” (and authority) of Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria?
It bothers me not if you reject my authority (“enlightened inner guidance”), but in declaring the specific texts in the New Testament to BE “accepted canon” you ARE accepting the authority of the Catholic Church which is based upon the “enlightened inner guidance” of Athanasius.
Reject me, embrace Athanasius. I don’t care. It matters not whose authority you accept, Mark. What matters is that you are doing the exact same thing (accepting the “enlightened inner guidance” of someone with regards to what texts are inspired) which you yourself identify as “Gnostic ideology”.
Given this, you are just as much Gnostic as you claim I am. (Sit there and tell me you don’t reject the Catholic canon of the Old Testament. I bet you can't even explain why. At least smdt has a measure of honesty when he admits his authority is based upon the Church Fathers.)
| mtimber wrote: | | You teach gnostic principles, denying the canon of scripture |
As I have said before, Mark, Buy a Clue. There is nothing within my posts that comprise any of the core teachings of Gnosticism. I have never preached that only certain people were born with a divine spark of God within them. I have never preached that the Father of the Son was not the creator, but rather that Jesus was mothered by the realm of Barbello. I have never preached that one must find special knowledge in order to free one’s divine spark (if indeed one has such spark) from the corrupt material cosmos created by a minor deity who made mistakes. Having read one website does not make one educated on Gnostic teachings. (I would suggest you find a better website that also has a clue.)
Your claim for the authority of the Bible is based upon the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost, which is the exact same thing as “enlightened inner guidance”. So you tell me who’s the Gnostic? One who actually believes what the New Testament texts say (unlike you who dispute their teaching to be led of the Spirit) or one who depends upon the “enlightened inner guidance” of Catholic Bishops to tell you what texts are canon?
Yehushuan
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Yehu I think you will find the claims are the Holy Spirit guided the authorities during the nascent period early in church history, it wasn't just any "enlightened inner vision Guidance" but God telling them which were to be used as canon, and that was only part of the qualifications for something to be accepted, the books had to be authored by a respected authority(usually an apostle) , and had also to be used by the various churches and approved by them.
None of the books that were canonized were ever considered gnostic, they were publicly used and well known amongst the churches. Gnostics would have kept the texts secret and honored people with a chance of reading them.
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | the Holy Spirit guided the authorities during the nascent period early in church history, it wasn't just any "enlightened inner vision Guidance" but God telling them which were to be used as canon |
Which is exactly what they would also say about their comprehension of salvation conferred by participation in the sacrament of water baptism.
One must either accept their guidance by the Holy Spirit in matters regarding BOTH Canon and Salvation or REJECT BOTH. It is schizophrenic to declare that God would guide them to select the “right” books but would not (or could not) Guide them to understand Salvation correctly. This is not rocket science. This is simple. If Athanasius was guided in the selection of his Canon (and it WAS he who Lorded the decision) then one cannot say that God would Not guide him in matters pertaining to Salvation.
Accept Both or Reject Both. Anything else is indeed schizophrenic.
Yehu
PS: But I notice you fail to offer specifics mentioned regarding how "enlightened inner vision Guidance" differs from “God telling them.” Did they, perchance, hear a voice? See a vision? Have an Angel vist? Cast the Urim and the Thummim?
PPS: | 45degreeN wrote: | | that was only part of the qualifications for something to be accepted, the books had to be authored by a respected authority(usually an apostle) , and had also to be used by the various churches and approved by them. |
You gloss over the details. Which is fine by me as long as one is aware that you gloss over the details. There was much heated dispute over the book of Revelation and the Shepherd of Hermas, and even TODAY there is dissention among the Eastern Churches. There is not one single canon amongst the several Christian Churches. (So much for Divine Guidance in this matter.)
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Boss said:
| Quote: | | Yehu I think you will find the claims are the Holy Spirit guided the authorities during the nascent period early in church history, it wasn't just any "enlightened inner vision Guidance" but God telling them which were to be used as canon, and that was only part of the qualifications for something to be accepted, the books had to be authored by a respected authority(usually an apostle) , and had also to be used by the various churches and approved by them. |
Only a Protestant could find a way to separate the guidance of the Holy Spirit from the authority Christ invested in the Church to make decisions of doctrinal and ecclesiastical importance. It's as if they believe the Counsils of Rome and Hippo declared, "we believe the Lord is leading us to canonize these following books..."
Boss, why don't you actually read the declarations of those counsils. You might accidentally find a Church stepping out boldly in the authority given to them by Christ. Keep reading the actual history of Christianity, and you might become Catholic someday. (been there, done that) 
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Only a Catholic could find a way to confuse the guidance of the Holy Spirit with the presumed authority Christ invested in the Church to make decisions of doctrinal and ecclesiastical importance. And while I’m certain “the Counsils (sic) of Rome and Hippo declared” their guidance in canonization, I fail to see any evidentiary examples that would show such guidance had occurred.
| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | | Boss, why don't you actually read the declarations of those counsils. |
That might be a bit difficult in that The first council that accepted the present New Testament canon was the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (393 CE); however, the acts of the council are lost.
And while I will track down the citation, at one of these councils the Catholic Church declared two canons to be accurate, one having the Revelation of John, with the other omitting it.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Yehu,
Fear not, my friend, for the resident Catholic has that info for you:
The Counsil of Rome
| Quote: | It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.
Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
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The Council of Hippo
| Quote: | | The Synod defines that besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing can be read in the Church under the name of divine Scripture. The canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings (Regnorum), Paralipomena two books, Job, the Davidic Psalter, the five books of Solomon, the twelve (minor) Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Danial, Ezekial, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Ezra two books, Maccabees two books. |
The Council of Rome in 382 and the Synod of Hippo in 393 were affirmed again by the Council of Carthage in 419:
| Quote: | "That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture.
ITEM, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Joshua the Son of Nun The Judges Ruth * The Kings (4 books) * The Chronicles (2 books) Job The Psalter * The Five books of Solomon (includes Wisdom and Sirach) The Twelve Books of the Prophets Isaiah Jeremiah Ezechiel Daniel Tobit Judith Esther * Ezra (2 books) * Maccabees (2books).
The New Testament: * The Gospels (4 books) * The Acts of the Apostles (1 book) * The Epistles of Paul (14) * The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2) * The Epistles of John the Apostle (3) * The Epistles of James the Apostle (1) * The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1) * The Revelation of John (1 book).
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church." |
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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Ebal Trace
German Shepherd
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Does Jesus preach Gnostic Theology?
Matthew 11:25-27 (King James Version)
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matthew 13:11-12 (King James Version)
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Is Jesus speaking of hidden mysteries that some people are told about but not others?
Ebal Trace
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Proverbs 14:15 (King James Version)
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. |
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Ebal Trace
German Shepherd
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | Yehu,
Fear not, my friend, for the resident Catholic has that info for you:
The Counsil of Rome
| Quote: | It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.
Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
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The Council of Hippo
| Quote: | | The Synod defines that besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing can be read in the Church under the name of divine Scripture. The canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings (Regnorum), Paralipomena two books, Job, the Davidic Psalter, the five books of Solomon, the twelve (minor) Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Danial, Ezekial, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Ezra two books, Maccabees two books. |
The Council of Rome in 382 and the Synod of Hippo in 393 were affirmed again by the Council of Carthage in 419:
| Quote: | "That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture.
ITEM, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Joshua the Son of Nun The Judges Ruth * The Kings (4 books) * The Chronicles (2 books) Job The Psalter * The Five books of Solomon (includes Wisdom and Sirach) The Twelve Books of the Prophets Isaiah Jeremiah Ezechiel Daniel Tobit Judith Esther * Ezra (2 books) * Maccabees (2books).
The New Testament: * The Gospels (4 books) * The Acts of the Apostles (1 book) * The Epistles of Paul (14) * The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2) * The Epistles of John the Apostle (3) * The Epistles of James the Apostle (1) * The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1) * The Revelation of John (1 book).
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church." |
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Dear SaintMichaelDefendthem,
Those are interesting lists you have shown us.
The Catholic version of Daniel has some extra chapters.
What do you think of this Scriptual Passage?
Daniel 14:22-26 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)
22And there was a great dragon in that place, and the Babylonians worshipped him.
23And the king said to Daniel: Behold thou canst not say now, that this is not a living god: adore him therefore.
24And Daniel said: I adore the Lord my God: for he is the living God: but that is no living god.
25But give me leave, O king, and I will kill this dragon without sword or club. And the king said: I give thee leave.
26Then Daniel took pitch, and fat, and hair, and boiled them together: and he made lumps, and put them into the dragon's mouth, and the dragon burst asunder. And he said: Behold him whom you worshipped.
I find it fascinating that Catholics believe in real dragons and that you can kill a dragon by feeding it hair balls.
Ebal Trace
_________________
Proverbs 14:15 (King James Version)
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | Yehu,
Fear not, my friend, for the resident Catholic has that info for you: |
With all due respect I must reject your information since it remains un-cited. Not even NewAdvent.org had published this information.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ebal Trace wrote: | | Does Jesus preach Gnostic Theology? |
No.
Not if you are familiar with Gnostic theology.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Ebal Trace
German Shepherd
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | mtimber wrote: | | Paul was in Damascus three years and then went to Jerusalem. The account that states he went to Jerusalem does not state a time scale, the time scale is provided in Galations. |
At this point I stand in awe at the woeful standards of education that England must have. Do you really need to seek solace in such simplistic dismissals, unable to read what is actually written? If nothing else, at least for those who do have some measure of cognitive ability, I point out.
Acts 9:27, 28: Barnabas took him, and brought him {Paul} to the apostles…And he was with them
Whereas it is written elsewhere:
Gal 1:18, 19: Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I NONE, save James the Lord's brother.
How you can be comfortable with the math that apostles (plural) + them (plural) = NONE is more a statement on your character than anything I of which I could ever dream up. How disappointing.  But I see there is no need to waste my time further.
Yehushuan |
Are you pointing out a contradiction to us?
Acts says Paul saw the Apostles and Galatians says he did not see the Apostles.
Care to elaborate?
Ebal Trace
_________________
Proverbs 14:15 (King James Version)
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. |
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