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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5150
Location: Missouri
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 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: SEEK THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE |
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"A NEW One-on-One"
Bitterlily verses towshad !!
Last one standin' wins! 
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Much Love Nobby
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: Re: SEEK THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE |
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Thanks Nobby!
Hi towshab,
I'm feeling a bit nervous!  
Because regardless of the truth I think our intentions or motives for this One on One discussion will ultimately determine it's outcome. So if you don't mind I'd like us to start off by setting each others minds and hearts at ease by us both expressing our intents and motives for entering into this One on One together.
For me, the Truth in all it's forms is all that matters. I am willing to seek it, receive it and express it on any given topic. I am willing to forsake my ego, my pride and my "desire to be right" in exchange for the Truth in all it's fullness.
I agree as requested, not to sink to using insults or phrases like "you can't understand because you don't have the spirit" or "you are an antichrist" as this will be an indication to you of my defeat.
In turn I ask that you not sink to using insults or saying phrases like "I don't believe in the GT anyway" whenever I prove any accusations you make against it to be false. But that you will openly admit and acknowledge your mistake, as will I. Anything less would be an admission to me of your defeat.
Well if your happy with this agreement then I am happy to get started.
P.S. My hope is that over time we won't view this as a One on One debate against eachother but rather a mutual pursuit of the Truth. And like I said, I'm not speaking in code here.
Looking forward to your reply
With Love
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Agreed for the most part. However, as far as the GT is concerned, you must realize that it is my strong belief, which I can back up with passages from the Tanakh, that G-d's Torah is eternal and will not be replaced by the new covenant spoken of in Jer 31, but that G-d's Torah will be written on hearts. The new covenant spoken of in the GT does indeed seek to replace G-d's Torah given on Mt. Sinai and therefore you will find that if a GT passage conflicts with Torah or the rest of Tanakh, I will see it as false. Knowing this, I wish you good luck using any passages from Paul and certainly the book of Hebrews.
However, I will strive to reign in my attitude about disbelieving certain things about the GT just because they cannot be backed up outside of the GT. Much the same can be said of Tanakh. We will therefore work within the mindset that Tanakh and Christian GT are true and we will work with knowing there are many conflicts between both.
I hereby ask that you make you're first point. If I start things out I might overwhelm you because I tend to get overzealous  .
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: | | Agreed for the most part. However, as far as the GT is concerned, you must realize that it is my strong belief, which I can back up with passages from the Tanakh, that G-d's Torah is eternal and will not be replaced by the new covenant spoken of in Jer 31, but that G-d's Torah will be written on hearts. |
Well this is a great start towshab because for the most part we are in agreement. I also believe that the Torah is eternal and will be written on hearts. And as I understand it, this is what the New Covenant is:
Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make A NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31:31-34
| towshab wrote: | | The new covenant spoken of in the GT does indeed seek to replace G-d's Torah given on Mt. Sinai and therefore you will find that if a GT passage conflicts with Torah or the rest of Tanakh, I will see it as false. Knowing this, I wish you good luck using any passages from Paul and certainly the book of Hebrews. |
Sounds good to me towshab!
Can I just clarify some terms so that when I use them you know what I am referring to. When I say "NT" I mean the New Testament writings from Matthew to Revelations. When I say "New Covenant" I am referring to that which is mentioned in Jeremiah 31.
I personally don't believe that the NT seeks to replace God's Torah given at Mount Sinai but rather that it seeks to unveil the New Covenant concealed within God's Torah. I am well aware that most if not all of the NT was not written when the Bereans were doing the following:
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming there went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Act 17:10-11
From the first time I read this verse I received it as not only encouragement but a necessity to search the OT Scriptures to see whether the things the NT writers were saying were true or not. This practise continues to serve me well.
| towshab wrote: | | However, I will strive to reign in my attitude about disbelieving certain things about the GT just because they cannot be backed up outside of the GT. Much the same can be said of Tanakh. We will therefore work within the mindset that Tanakh and Christian GT are true and we will work with knowing there are many conflicts between both. |
Wow! I am impressed! That sounds fair and balanced and has certainly put my mind and heart at ease!
| towshab wrote: | | I hereby ask that you make you're first point. If I start things out I might overwhelm you because I tend to get overzealous . |
Well I will try my best to keep up with you. It's actually way passed my bedtime so I'd better be heading off for a snooze. But maybe you could start us off by first listing all the doctrines of Christianity that you believe contradict the Torah and when I awake tomorrow I will confirm whether I agree or disagree. For example:
1. Trinity
2. Hell
3. Jesus as the Son of Yehovah
4. Jesus as Yehovah
5. etc, etc...
(For the record, this is an example only!)
It is up to you if you want to provide support for your views on each item in your list, but I just thought I'd let you know in advance not to be surprised if I end up just agreeing with you in many of them. We have our differences of course, but you may just be surprised at the views we hold in common. Maybe I am being too optimistic but we'll just wait and see shall we.
Good Night/Day
Kind Regards
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: |
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BL,
I am going to answer a few posts in a thread or two, and then I must go. I have a family health issue going on right now and I just came home for a few hours then I will be going back to hospital. While my clothes are washing I can answer some posts.
_________________
'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, just working off memory of what you asked but here is what I have thus far. Take your time to reply because I'll be off again for perhaps 24 hours.
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(1) The Trinity – the trinity is perhaps the very one part of Christianity which is against YHVH. If G-d was truly of a triune nature, He would have revealed this to His prophets.
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Amo 3:7 "For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.
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Therefore, since this triune nature has not been revealed to His prophets, and G-d does not keep secrets to His prophets, YHVH is not triune. If one believes he is, then that person is NOT worshiping the G-d of all flesh, YHVH, but some other god, perhaps Krishna or some Egyptian god.
Even if you consider Jesus a prophet and YHVH’s servant, then why did Jesus not speak of this triune nature?
If one thinks their god is triune, and Jesus was the one to bring knowledge of this triune god, then Jesus is one spoken of in Deu 13
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Deu 13:1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,'
Deu 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.
Deu 13:5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
==============================
Since no Jew has known a triune god as their G-d, then this triune god is one that the Jews do not know.
(2) Jesus as YHVH – Many of the same things found in (1) above apply here. In addition
==============================
Num 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
1Ki 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
==============================
The first says G-d is not a man, nor a son of man, the second says G-d will not dwell on earth because the earth cannot contain Him. It is a common Jewish believe that the universe is contained in G-d, not vice-versa! So how could G-d be contained in a single man although the GT says Jesus had all of the godhead in him. This contradicts 1 Ki 8:27.
(3) Jesus as King Messiah – Jesus did not fulfill a single messianic condition. Here are the conditions that will show us that the King Messiah has come into the world:
- When the Messiah comes, false understandings of G-d will pass away, and there will be a universal knowledge of G-d.
==============================
Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.
Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples--of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.
==============================
- Christianity basically writes of Torah as a ‘shadow’ and something that has been abolished. However, when the Messiah comes, G-d’s Torah will be written on hearts
==============================
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my Torah within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
==============================
If the GT says grace has replaced Torah, why would G-d write Torah in people’s hearts when King Messiah comes?
- The children of Israel will all return to the promised land, Since Jews are scattered around the world, it is safe to say the Messiah has not come.
==============================
Eze 37:21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land.
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms.
Eze 37:23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes.
Eze 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.
Eze 37:26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
Eze 37:27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."
==============================
These verse say much. 37:21 has the scattered people returning home. 37:22 says that they will no longer be divided and that they will have one king (Jesus does not qualify, he was never a king). 37:23 says they will shed all of the pagan religions they have fallen into, Christianity included, to return to the true faith in Torah. 37:24 gives you a clue about the true Messiah: he is typically called by the name ‘David’. Since Jesus was not born of the line of David by father, he has no blood rights to the throne because this passes through male descent. 37:26 speaks of building the 3rd temple, and while Jesus is supposedly that temple according to the GT, Ez 40 and on speaks of the construction of that temple so it cannot be Jesus.
- When the King Messaih comes, people will not look to Christians, nor to Muslims, or any other religion. They will look to G-d’s chosen.
==============================
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"
Isa 49:22 Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; and they shall bring your sons in their bosom, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders.
Isa 49:23 Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame."
(4) Jesus is not the way to G-d, although he claims such in John 14:6.
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Deu 4:7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the LORD our God is to us, whenever we call upon him?
Psa 34:17 When the righteous cry for help, the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles.
Psa 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.
Psa 119:151 But you are near, O LORD, and all your commandments are true.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He fulfills the desire of those who fear him; he also hears their cry and saves them.
Isa 45:20 "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save.
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
Isa 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
==============================
Nothing about needing Jesus anywhere to be found in those passages. Why would G-d change this and make Jesus the way when YHVH has already provided the way long before Jesus ever came? Gentiles do not have to turn to a man called Jesus.
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1Ki 8:41 "Likewise, when a foreigner, who is not of your people Israel, comes from a far country for your name's sake
1Ki 8:42 (for they shall hear of your great name and your mighty hand, and of your outstretched arm), when he comes and prays toward this house,
1Ki 8:43 hear in heaven your dwelling place and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to you, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your people Israel, and that they may know that this house that I have built is called by your name.
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: | | Sorry, just working off memory of what you asked but here is what I have thus far. Take your time to reply because I'll be off again for perhaps 24 hours. |
Hi towshab,
Sorry to hear your having a family health issue. I hope it's nothing too serious. May God be with you all!
As you can see, this is a long one and I haven't even finished yet. But I'm not gonna have much time over the next few weeks to post so hopefully this will keep you going for a while.
| towshab wrote: | ==============================
(1) The Trinity – the trinity is perhaps the very one part of Christianity which is against YHVH. If G-d was truly of a triune nature, He would have revealed this to His prophets....
============================== |
I agree towshab. I believe that the Trinity is a Man-made tradition, contrary to the Scriptures both Old and New. And I have written a lengthy post on this subject on the Debate Forum using both the OT and NT which you can read here if you want to. You'll have to remember that I wrote it from the premise that the NT is the Word of God, but it may still interest you to see that the Trinity can be disproven from the NT as well.
| towshab wrote: | | Even if you consider Jesus a prophet and YHVH’s servant, then why did Jesus not speak of this triune nature? |
That's a good point towshab. Jesus says nothing about God having a Triune Nature. The verses that are often quoted to support the Trinity are usually quoted with out taking others into consideration. For example, the 3rd part of God is believed to be the Holy Spirit. But both the OT and the NT state that the Holy Spirit is GOD:
...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2
The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life. Job 33:4
Deliver me, O YHVH, from my enemies: I flee unto you to hide me. Teach me to do your will; for you are my God: your Spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness. Psa 143:9-10
Compare these with the following NT verses:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Joh 4:24
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me: Joh 15:26
But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. Joh 16:13
But God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Co 2:10-11
| towshab wrote: | (2) Jesus as YHVH – Many of the same things found in (1) above apply here. In addition
==============================
Num 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
1Ki 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
==============================
The first says G-d is not a man, nor a son of man,... |
Jesus said:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Joh 4:24
| towshab wrote: | | ...the second says G-d will not dwell on earth because the earth cannot contain Him. |
I ask that you look at that verse again towshab and note that it is not a statement but a question:
1Ki 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
| towshab wrote: | | It is a common Jewish believe that the universe is contained in G-d, not vice-versa! |
I would have to agree with that sentiment. But as for God dwelling on the earth, I suppose it depends how you look at it. God's Spirit was dwelling (not wholly contained) in the OT Tabernacle and Temple which dwelt on earth. Look at these verses:
Let us know, let us press on to know YHVH: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. Hos 6:3
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of you, says YHVH. And many nations shall be joined to YHVH in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that YHVH of hosts has sent me unto you. And YHVH shall inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Be silent, all flesh, before YEHOVAH: for he has raised up out of his holy habitation. Zec 2:10-13
This is an interesting verse because it says that YHVH is speaking and yet He says:
I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that YHVH of hosts has sent me unto you.
It's funny because this is the same argument that many Christians have used to try to prove the Trinity or disprove Jesus as YHVH. They say things like, "How can Jesus be the Father when He said He was sent by the Father?"
But these verses clearly show that YHVH is the one speaking and is the one sent by YHVH. How is it possible for YHVH to send YHVH? Maybe YHVH being Spirit has something to do with it, making it possible for Him to dwell in 2 places at the same time. Sounds logical don't you think?
| Quote: | | So how could G-d be contained in a single man although the GT says Jesus had all of the godhead in him. This contradicts 1 Ki 8:27. |
The word translated Godhead is from the greek word Theotes which is defined by several Bible Dictionaries as Divinity; Deity; Divine Nature. Do you hear it differently now? We often hear people say that "that boy has the nature of His Father". This is what I hear this verse saying:
In Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Divine Nature of YHVH bodily. This would certainly help explain how YHVH can send YHVH.
| towshab wrote: | (3) Jesus as King Messiah – Jesus did not fulfill a single messianic condition. Here are the conditions that will show us that the King Messiah has come into the world...
[*] When the Messiah comes, false understandings of G-d will pass away, and there will be a universal knowledge of G-d....
[*] The children of Israel will all return to the promised land, Since Jews are scattered around the world, it is safe to say the Messiah has not come....
These verse say much. Jer 37:21 has the scattered people returning home. 37:22 says that they will no longer be divided and that they will have one king (Jesus does not qualify, he was never a king). 37:23 says they will shed all of the pagan religions they have fallen into, Christianity included, to return to the true faith in Torah... |
You are not taking into consideration the prophesy of Daniel who said the Messiah would be cut off:
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off H3772, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:25-26
The Hebrew word for cut off is karath:
H3772
????
ka^rath
BDB Definition:
1) to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant
Now you could argue that it didn't mean "cut off" as in death and let's just say for a moment that this was true. It still disproves your theory that when the Messiah comes...:
| towshab wrote: | | false understandings of G-d will pass away, and there will be a universal knowledge of G-d |
Because the very same verse in Daniel tells us what will happen after the Messiah is cut off (in red):
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9:26-27
Please respond to this towshab because this should have changed your perspective somewhat of the coming of the Jewish Messiah. If Jesus is the Jewish Messiah then He has already fulfilled this verse and His Second Coming will bring in Everlasting Peace as prophesied by other Prophets. If the Jews choose somone else as the Jewish Messiah and He comes bringing peace then He is not the Messiah of the OT Scriptures.
So here is what I think we can establish from this regarding the coming of the Jewish Messiah:
1. He will be cut off and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
2. And some time after this He will fulfill your following points:
| towshab wrote: | Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.
Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples--of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. |
Next point you made...
| towshab wrote: | [*] Christianity basically writes of Torah as a ‘shadow’ and something that has been abolished. However, when the Messiah comes, G-d’s Torah will be written on hearts
==============================
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my Torah within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
============================== |
This may be what some Christians teach but the NT doesn't teach that the Law is abolished:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:17-20
For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? Rom 2:25-27
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, who shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.Rom 3:29-31
If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that has showed no mercy; and mercy triumphs over judgment. Jas 2:8-13
As for the Old covenant Torah being a Shadow of the New Covenant Torah written on our Hearts, this can be shown solely from quoting the OT. Read the whole of Psalm 40 but especially ponder on these 2 verses:
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; my ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do your will, O my God: yea, YOUR LAW IS WITHIN MY HEART. Psa 40:6-8
If you were to say that this Psalm of David was David writing about himself then why is David making sacrifices and offerings to YHVH in the following verses:
And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering. And the LORD commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into its sheath. At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there. 1Ch 21:26-28
But lets for a moment assume this Psalm is about David. This would prove that the New (Heart) Covenant was hidden within the Old (Outward)Covenant. And that even people under the Old Covenant had access to the New Covenant in David's day (and before). Here are some more verses:
Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part you shall make me to know wisdom. Psa 51:6
For I (YHVH) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me. Hos 6:6-7
But I am poor and sorrowful: let your salvation, O God, set me up on high. I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This also shall please YHVH better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs. The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your hearts shall live that seek God. For YHVH hears the poor, and despises not his prisoners. Psa 69:29-33
Ohh, Beautiful!!! Don't you reckon?
Do you see the Old and the New Covenant in those verses?
The OLD (outward) Covenant =
An ox or bullock with horns and hoofs...
Sacrifice and burnt offerings...
The NEW (Heart) Covenant =
Mercy...
Knowledge of God...
I will praise the name of God with a song...
And magnify him with thanksgiving...
| towshab wrote: | | If the GT says grace has replaced Torah, why would G-d write Torah in people’s hearts when King Messiah comes? |
I gather you are referring to this verse:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:14
Lets have a look at the definition of Grace:
G5485
?a´???
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
This sounds similar to what David was describing above. But remember what Paul said:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom 3:31
The Jews thought they were more pleasing to God then the Gentiles because they offered him sacrifices and offerings. But as David testified, there were other things that pleased YHVH more than these:
I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This also shall please YHVH better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs. Psa 69:30-31
Jesus testified of the same thing when He told this parable:
And he spoke this parable unto certain who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank you, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.Luk 18:9-14
| towshab wrote: | | 37:24 gives you a clue about the true Messiah: he is typically called by the name ‘David’... |
Your not suggesting that the Messiah's name will be David are you? When you say "typically called" are you saying by Scripture or Tradition?
| Quote: | | Since Jesus was not born of the line of David by father, he has no blood rights to the throne because this passes through male descent. |
Please provide some verses that support this. I can think of one that suggests otherwise:
Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the company of them that gathered themselves together against the LORD in the company of Korah; but died in his own sin, and had no sons. Why should the name of our father be done away from among his family, because he has no son? Give unto us therefore a possession among the brethren of our father. And Moses brought their cause before the LORD. And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: you shall surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and you shall cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them. And you shall speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man dies, and has no son, then you shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. And if he has no daughter, then you shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. And if he has no brethren, then you shall give his inheritance unto his father's brethren. And if his father has no brethren, then you shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family, and he shall possess it: and it shall be unto the children of Israel a statute of judgment, as the LORD commanded Moses. Num 27:3-11
| towshab wrote: | | 37:26 speaks of building the 3rd temple, and while Jesus is supposedly that temple according to the GT, Ez 40 and on speaks of the construction of that temple so it cannot be Jesus. |
The 3rd temple you speak of, the Jews are hoping to one day build on Mount Moriah, the place that Solomon's temple once stood. But YHVH said He would rebuild the Tabernacle of David that stood on Mount Zion:
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up its breaches; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will rebuild it as in the days of old:
Amo 9:11
Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chiefs of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion. 1Ki 8:1
Thus says YHVH of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. Thus says YHVH; I have returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts, the holy mountain. Zec 8:2-3
And I will make them that are lame a remnant, and those that were cast far off a strong nation: and YHVH shall reign over them in mount Zion from that time forth, even forever. And you, O tower of the flock, the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto you shall it come, even the former dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. Mic 4:7-8
So if the 3rd Temple is built on Mount Moriah then it is not the Tabernacle of David that the Prophets spoke of.
I will reply to the rest of your comments in my next post.
Kind Regards
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Bitterlily,
Since we are going 'one on one' I have snipped out the first part of your last response because we both have similar beliefs on the trinity and Jesus as YHVH (I think we do on the latter). I will then take it up here:
| bitterlily wrote: |
This is an interesting verse because it says that YHVH is speaking and yet He says:
I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that YHVH of hosts has sent me unto you.
It's funny because this is the same argument that many Christians have used to try to prove the Trinity or disprove Jesus as YHVH. They say things like, "How can Jesus be the Father when He said He was sent by the Father?"
But these verses clearly show that YHVH is the one speaking and is the one sent by YHVH. How is it possible for YHVH to send YHVH? Maybe YHVH being Spirit has something to do with it, making it possible for Him to dwell in 2 places at the same time. Sounds logical don't you think? |
BL, please read that passage in context again. What you may be struggling with is the way the Hebrew is translated to English and the subsequent punctuation. YHVH is not the one speaking in the verse you supplied. Whatever the case, go back to Zec 2:3-4 (2:7-8 in Tanakh) for the context of who is speaking:
==============================
Zec 2:3 And behold, the angel who talked with me came forward, and another angel came forward to meet him
Zec 2:4 and said to him, "Run, say to that young man, 'Jerusalem shall be inhabited as villages without walls, because of the multitude of people and livestock in it.
==============================
The one who is speaking in verse 11 is the angel who is speaking in verse 2:4. We see instances where G-d sends His angels to tend to peoples of a region in other places. For instance in Daniel we find
==============================
Dan 10:21 But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.
==============================
We also find this
==============================
Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
==============================
Oh, just so you know, I will mostly be using the ESV. When communicating with Christians I like to use their own translations so there are no accusations of supposed bias by using Tanakh translations such as JPS, Judaica Press, Artscroll, etc.
So as you can see, YHVH sent His angels to minister to His people AND other peoples as well it seems according to Deu 32:8. Therefore you can see in context that the one speaking in Zec 2:11 was an angel of YHVH, not YHVH Himself.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | So how could G-d be contained in a single man although the GT says Jesus had all of the godhead in him. This contradicts 1 Ki 8:27. |
The word translated Godhead is from the greek word Theotes which is defined by several Bible Dictionaries as Divinity; Deity; Divine Nature. Do you hear it differently now? We often hear people say that "that boy has the nature of His Father". This is what I hear this verse saying:
In Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Divine Nature of YHVH bodily. This would certainly help explain how YHVH can send YHVH. |
Again, go back and look at Zec 2 again and try to read it without being biased by any punctuation placed there. Another clue is this verse
==============================
Zec 2:8 For thus said the LORD of hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye:
==============================
See the pronoun usage? The angel is 'me' and 'his' belongs to YHVH.
To get back to your reference in Col 2:9, I suppose there are several ways to look at it. But reflecting back to 1 Ki 8:27, we know that G-d cannot be contained in a single man although a man of G-d could contain divine power given by YHVH. Perhaps the focus should shift from 'godhead' to what is meant by 'fullness'.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | (3) Jesus as King Messiah - Jesus did not fulfill a single messianic condition. Here are the conditions that will show us that the King Messiah has come into the world...
[*] When the Messiah comes, false understandings of G-d will pass away, and there will be a universal knowledge of G-d....
[*] The children of Israel will all return to the promised land, Since Jews are scattered around the world, it is safe to say the Messiah has not come....
These verse say much. Jer 37:21 has the scattered people returning home. 37:22 says that they will no longer be divided and that they will have one king (Jesus does not qualify, he was never a king). 37:23 says they will shed all of the pagan religions they have fallen into, Christianity included, to return to the true faith in Torah... |
You are not taking into consideration the prophesy of Daniel who said the Messiah would be cut off:
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off H3772, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:25-26
The Hebrew word for cut off is karath:
H3772
????
ka^rath
BDB Definition:
1) to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant
Now you could argue that it didn't mean "cut off" as in death and let's just say for a moment that this was true. It still disproves your theory that when the Messiah comes...: |
This is a common Christian misunderstanding of the Hebrew word for 'messiah'. It merely means 'anointed' and can be applied to an anointed king, prophet, or priest. In fact, of the 30+ times 'moshiach' is mentioned in the Tanakh, do you know how many of those are applied to King Messiah? Zero! Typically, the King Messiah will be called 'David' or 'son of David' and not by the word 'moshiach'.
Sadly, many Christian translations took liberties with Daniel 9 and changed the English to read 'the Messiah' when every other instance of the Hebrew word they used 'anointed'. In fact, the only time the KJV translates 'moshiach' as 'messiah' is in Dan 9:25-26! Do you not see the bias in this?
The reasoning for this is simple: they want people to see Jesus as this Messiah. But there are several problems with this without going into the details of the actual year calculations. For one thing, the timing of the cutting off of the 'anointed one' was to happen at or around the same time the temple was destroyed. Yet we know that the temple was not destroyed until 35-37 years after Jesus was crucified! Plus, what of Dan 9:27 where the prince makes a covenant for seven years but after 3.5 years he cuts off sacrifices? Again, none of this took place anywhere near the time of Jesus' death so without calculating the 62 weeks and the other 7 weeks (they are not compounded, some Christian translations separate them adequately), this cannot be Jesus.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | | false understandings of G-d will pass away, and there will be a universal knowledge of G-d |
Because the very same verse in Daniel tells us what will happen after the Messiah is cut off (in red):
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9:26-27
Please respond to this towshab because this should have changed your perspective somewhat of the coming of the Jewish Messiah. If Jesus is the Jewish Messiah then He has already fulfilled this verse and His Second Coming will bring in Everlasting Peace as prophesied by other Prophets. If the Jews choose somone else as the Jewish Messiah and He comes bringing peace then He is not the Messiah of the OT Scriptures. |
There is no 'second coming' in Tanakh. If someone claims to be King Messiah then to be true all will come about in his lifetime. There is no second chance. I would like for you to show me a single instance in Tanakh where there is a 'second coming'. I am sorry, but the idea of a 'second coming' was inserted in to Jesus' life to make up for the fact that he did not fulfill a single messianic age prophecy. You are placing your hopes on something that does not find a shred of support in Tanakh.
Besides, how is what you showed from Daniel any indication of a universal knowledge of G-d? There has never been a universal knowledge of G-d in any part of human history outside of Adam and Eve, and then Noah and his family. After that, people went their own way with many serving pagan gods and thus losing the knowledge of YHVH.
| Quote: | So here is what I think we can establish from this regarding the coming of the Jewish Messiah:
1. He will be cut off and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. |
Again, not possible due to the timing of the Daniel passage in question. The cutting off of the anointed one and destruction of the temple and Jerusalem happen together, not 35-37 years apart. There is no room for this interpretation when timelines are clearly displayed in this passage. You would have to add in the 5+ weeks (35-37 years) to make up the missing part.
| Quote: | | 2. And some time after this He will fulfill your following points: |
Again, no foundation for a second coming is found in Tanakh. G-d keeps no secrets from His prophets (Amos 3:7). So what you assert is not possible.
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.
Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples--of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. |
Next point you made...
| towshab wrote: | [*] Christianity basically writes of Torah as a 'shadow' and something that has been abolished. However, when the Messiah comes, G-d's Torah will be written on hearts
==============================
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my Torah within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
============================== |
This may be what some Christians teach but the NT doesn't teach that the Law is abolished:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:17-20
For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? Rom 2:25-27
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, who shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.Rom 3:29-31
If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that has showed no mercy; and mercy triumphs over judgment. Jas 2:8-13
As for the Old covenant Torah being a Shadow of the New Covenant Torah written on our Hearts, this can be shown solely from quoting the OT. Read the whole of Psalm 40 but especially ponder on these 2 verses:
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; my ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do your will, O my God: yea, YOUR LAW IS WITHIN MY HEART. Psa 40:6-8
If you were to say that this Psalm of David was David writing about himself then why is David making sacrifices and offerings to YHVH in the following verses:
And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering. And the LORD commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into its sheath. At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there. 1Ch 21:26-28
But lets for a moment assume this Psalm is about David. This would prove that the New (Heart) Covenant was hidden within the Old (Outward)Covenant. And that even people under the Old Covenant had access to the New Covenant in David's day (and before). Here are some more verses:
Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part you shall make me to know wisdom. Psa 51:6
For I (YHVH) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me. Hos 6:6-7
But I am poor and sorrowful: let your salvation, O God, set me up on high. I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This also shall please YHVH better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs. The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your hearts shall live that seek God. For YHVH hears the poor, and despises not his prisoners. Psa 69:29-33
Ohh, Beautiful!!! Don't you reckon?
Do you see the Old and the New Covenant in those verses?
The OLD (outward) Covenant =
An ox or bullock with horns and hoofs...
Sacrifice and burnt offerings...
The NEW (Heart) Covenant =
Mercy...
Knowledge of God...
I will praise the name of God with a song...
And magnify him with thanksgiving... |
Most of this is good. But you have to understand what is being taught or given by David and Hosea. Sacrifice has never been what G-d desired, but a repentant heart. So why all of the sacrificial laws?
Combine a truly repentant heart with the action of sacrifice. One should be the result of the other, just as Christians should get baptized as the result of obedience. It is still an outward sign but it is the inward change that G-d looks upon.
To me, I see both actions - sacrifice and baptism - as an example to our fellow man. That is, G-d knows the heart but man does not. However, if they see the act of obedience, they get a glimpse of the heart. That is not to say one cannot go through the motions and merely display the outward without reflecting it inwardly because this happens more often than not. So its really a combo deal.
That is why G-d said many times that He was disgusted with their sacrifices and observances. They were going through the motions and thinking that was all that was required. Its like telling someone you love them but constantly showing the opposite.
Even your bible touches on this subject in Revelation with the church of Ephesus. Again, outwardly pious but inwardly wicked.
Jesus knew this. I don't disbelieve all that was written of him, just that parts that don't match Tanakh. When he spoke of what was adultery, by Torah he was not quite right. But yet his purpose was clear: he wanted people to see that everything we choose to do (or not do) starts somewhere. With adultery, it starts with an attraction and if not checked, can lead to adultery. So he was getting to the heart of the matter. Thus, lusting was not actually adultery, but unchecked it can lead to it.
I feel I need to make one correction to what you said though, because Hebrews refutes your idea:
==============================
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
==============================
As you can see, the writer here is saying that the 'old covenant' is obsolete and will vanish. That flies in the face of your opinion that the Christian bible does not teach that the 'new covenant' is still Torah written on people's hearts.
The Book of Hebrews is the one book in your GT that degrades YHVH's Torah the most. Sadly, it is full of contradictions. For instance in one place Hebrews says
==============================
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
==============================
This verse refers back to Lev 17:11 (although not contextually correct). Here the writer says blood is necessary for forgiveness of sins. Yet he later contradicts himself
==============================
Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
==============================
In 9:22 there was no stipulation, it was a clear reference to Lev 17:11 which had nothing to do with the blood of any man but of animals. Thus in one verse the writer says blood forgives, in another he says it does not. An obvious contradiction.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | | If the GT says grace has replaced Torah, why would G-d write Torah in people's hearts when King Messiah comes? |
I gather you are referring to this verse:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:14
Lets have a look at the definition of Grace:
G5485
?a´???
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
This sounds similar to what David was describing above. But remember what Paul said:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom 3:31
The Jews thought they were more pleasing to God then the Gentiles because they offered him sacrifices and offerings. But as David testified, there were other things that pleased YHVH more than these:
I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This also shall please YHVH better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs. Psa 69:30-31
Jesus testified of the same thing when He told this parable:
And he spoke this parable unto certain who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank you, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.Luk 18:9-14 |
While you can quote verses to support that Torah applies to the Christian covenant, I could supply others from the GT that refute it. The GT is sadly full of such conflicts. I think Paul went back and forth between his roots in Judaism and then on to keeping the Gentiles when he felt too much 'law talk' would lose them.
For instance, Paul says this
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Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
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The 'Book of Law' is the Torah. So in this verse, Paul is pretty much saying that if you live by Torah, then you are under a curse. There is a fine line between seeking righteousness in Torah and simply living by Torah to please G-d, and Paul was not doing a very good job of relating this. Instead, his teaching tended to make people think that Torah was a curse to be avoided and that grace was all sufficient. Therefore, because he struggled with teaching these Gentiles who had not grown up with Torah what Torah was, he pretty much cast it off for them. It was much easier to do this than instruct them in the ways of Torah.
This is but another example of why the new covenant in Jer 31 has not come about. Paul would not have needed to struggle with this had King Messiah actually come, because
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Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
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Since Paul was definitely needed to teach these Gentiles, it is very obvious that the new covenant has not come. Even today, the majority of the world does not know G-d, so the new covenant is still to come.
| Quote: | | towshab wrote: | | 37:24 gives you a clue about the true Messiah: he is typically called by the name 'David'... |
Your not suggesting that the Messiah's name will be David are you? When you say "typically called" are you saying by Scripture or Tradition? |
Not literally, no. What this means is that the King Messiah will be in the line of David. It was quite evident in Tanakh that people were called by the name of their fathers. Jacob became Israel, and you know the rest there. But David's line is the one that King Messiah will come from, and it will be through paternal bloodline through Solomon.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Since Jesus was not born of the line of David by father, he has no blood rights to the throne because this passes through male descent. |
Please provide some verses that support this. I can think of one that suggests otherwise:
Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the company of them that gathered themselves together against the LORD in the company of Korah; but died in his own sin, and had no sons. Why should the name of our father be done away from among his family, because he has no son? Give unto us therefore a possession among the brethren of our father. And Moses brought their cause before the LORD. And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: you shall surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and you shall cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them. And you shall speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man dies, and has no son, then you shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. And if he has no daughter, then you shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. And if he has no brethren, then you shall give his inheritance unto his father's brethren. And if his father has no brethren, then you shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family, and he shall possess it: and it shall be unto the children of Israel a statute of judgment, as the LORD commanded Moses. Num 27:3-11 |
As you can see, this had to do with property rights, not right to the throne of David. G-d said that the line of kings would be from David's seed, and this means direct paternal descent.
1 Chronicles 2 shows that bloodline and tribe is established through the male. Also
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2Sa 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
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We know that the one to follow and sit on the throne was Solomon, and here G-d is saying that Solomon's throne would be established forever. The word for 'offspring' is 'zera' which means 'seed' and always speaks of the literal offspring of the person. Another passage
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Psa 89:34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.
Psa 89:35 Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David.
Psa 89:36 His offspring ['seed', 'zera'] shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me.
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